knot test of the EDK

Hi All,

Yes, it's me again, cross posting (but on-topic) between
rec.crafts.knots and rec.climbing. During the thread requesting an
opinion of the climbers, the question of the efficacy of the European
Death Knot (EDK) for joining two rope ends came up.

Being one who prefers to test traditional lore for its truth
content, I ran some tests on it using my usual test method. I joined
two pieces of 290lb test polyester houseline twine with the EDK, tied
bowlines in the ends, looped the bowlines over some pieces of 1/2"
braided nylon rope, and then used the ropes to pull apart the knot in
the twine. The results surprised me.

In tests with my usual modality, five light tugs followed with
five stronger tugs etc. till the twine breaks or I can't break it, the
knot tightened up and held till the twine broke.

In tests where I nailed it with full force on the first and
subsequent tugs, it slipped. I had tied overhand stopper knots at the
end of four inch tails, and the knot slid all the way down to the
stoppers.

Since there are matters of scale operating here, it's apparent
that in a stretchy climbing rope with an ultimate tensile strength of
say six thousand pounds, there would have to be a shock load way above
anything that is likely to be experienced in the field to achieve this
effect. I also believe that this loosely spun houseline twine is
slippery than a braided climbing rope. What I suspect happened is
that the method of starting with light tugs simulated increasing the
load gradually as would be the case in putting a rope on a
manufacturer's test bed.

Using any knot is a matter of choice, and most choices are a
compromise of some sort. The best you can do is gather all the
information you can, and make an informed decision. I have become
somewhat hesitant about offering safety advice, so let me state that
this article is meant in the nature of information, not advice. If it
were me though, I'd make sure to back up the EDK with stopper knots.
Whether the stopper knots are likely to defeat one of the strengths of
the EDK, namely its reluctance to hang up when being dragged over
rock, I will not offer an opinion.

Regards,
O J

On Mon, 26 Apr, O J wrote:


Yes, it's me again, cross posting (but on-topic) between
rec.crafts.knots and rec.climbing. During the thread requesting an
opinion of the climbers, the question of the efficacy of the European
Death Knot (EDK) for joining two rope ends came up.

It would have been nice if I had included the correct name of
this knot. It's the overhand bend, ABOK-1410 (The Ashley Book Of
Knots). For those without a copy of Ashley, it may be seen he
http://www.scoutresources.org.uk/SR/knots_az02.html

Duh,
O J

O J wrote:
Hi All,

Yes, it's me again, cross posting (but on-topic) between
rec.crafts.knots and rec.climbing. During the thread requesting an
opinion of the climbers, the question of the efficacy of the European
Death Knot (EDK) for joining two rope ends came up.

Being one who prefers to test traditional lore for its truth
content, I ran some tests on it using my usual test method. I joined
two pieces of 290lb test polyester houseline twine with the EDK, tied
bowlines in the ends, looped the bowlines over some pieces of 1/2"
braided nylon rope, and then used the ropes to pull apart the knot in
the twine.

The EDK, and other climbing climbing knots have been tested using far more
rigorous, valid methods. See, for instance:

http://www.xmission.com/~tmoyer/testing/EDK.html

-Jay

In article , O J
wrote:

Hi All,

Yes, it's me again, cross posting (but on-topic) between
rec.crafts.knots and rec.climbing. During the thread requesting an
opinion of the climbers, the question of the efficacy of the European
Death Knot (EDK) for joining two rope ends came up.

Being one who prefers to test traditional lore for its truth
content, I ran some tests on it using my usual test method. I joined
two pieces of 290lb test polyester houseline twine....

Sorry, man I dunno who you are trying to address. If you are a climber,
you should know that most climbers are very pragmatic. I don't know any
climber who gives a **** if the EDK is the best knot in the world for
twine, or if it made Hitler kill himself. Sure, there are some freako
engineer types here, but I know the type and I'm sure they post in
rec.crafts.knots anyways.

Jason

--
"There is no spoon"

O J writes:

The results I found mean nothing

If only you had stopped there...

statistically, but anecdotally,
they imply a question about the validity of testing this knot by
increasing the force gradually.

As far as climbing is concerned, the validity of someone testing this
knot by pulling on household twine (and not kernmantle rope) is
anecdotally as useful as someone pulling on his pud.

-bw

Brent Ware wrote in message ...
O J writes:

The results I found mean nothing

If only you had stopped there...

statistically, but anecdotally,
they imply a question about the validity of testing this knot by
increasing the force gradually.

As far as climbing is concerned, the validity of someone testing this
knot by pulling on household twine (and not kernmantle rope) is
anecdotally as useful as someone pulling on his pud.

-bw

Yeah, I tried that. I had trouble getting it tied into the figure-8
follow through, though, so I didn't test that one. All in all, I
agree -- the test wasn't all that useful, anecdotally or otherwise.

br