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#11
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Buying a prop-ox torch setup
On Sat, 10 Mar 2007 16:42:56 -0800, Frosty wrote:
FWIW, I have the little torch (Smith?) and use Oxy/ace. I have one tip and it's been on there for about 15 years. I find the graded sizes (and acetylene) most useful for fusion, but also move to a very small size when brazing jump rings and such, even though it could be done with a larger tip. I have a bit of a larger torch for larger jobs and a HUGE combo welding torch/cutting torch (changable tips) for large reduction. I have a 40 year old Victor set. I let the local welding shop rebuild the regulators, replaced a few torch gaskets, and it works like new. Welding equipment is a lifetime investment. For your reading pleasu http://www.lawyersandsettlements.com...ane-explosions Yes. Clean burning but dangerous. Even Hank Hill [1] was blown up once. If I'm not right with that tank, it gets chained to an outdoor pole 80 feet away from the studio. [1] This is an animated cartoon character who sells propane. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_of_the_Hill -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com |
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#12
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Buying a prop-ox torch setup
C0nnie wrote:
...snip... Well I hit the mother lode today that corresponds with all of your advice. Went to visit my fave goldsmith and he showed me his Meco Midget and why he likes it (bigger output/ more versatile than Smith Little). Then went to the local welders supply and coincidentally the Smith rep was there. I told him about the Midget and he showed me the Smith Quickbraze. (see http://www.smithequipment.com/produc...z/quickbrz.htm ) What a nice lil gadget with kevlar covering the hoses. Bigger than the Little torch, but still quite petite. Comes with 4 tips, one is a dual flame, looks like a horseshoe, one is the typical small aperture of jewelers, one is a rosette. One tip is on a long copper tube extending it beyond or between something awkward- this is for heating and ac guys. Still, the setup meets and exceeds all my needs for years to come. I plan to get it Monday. With the oxygen regulator H1940G-540 and a single-stage propane regulator, it will total out to about $360. This looks exactly like the MicroFlame torch set that I've been using for about 20 years here in UK. The UK company is in a small town called Diss, in Norfolk. It came with a range of small straight tips, the 2 smallest of which have drilled ruby nozzles, and a range of rosette tips that can be screwed to the end of tube shaped rather like a question mark. A twin-nozzle (the 'horseshoe' one) is available for soldering pipes on refrigerators and the like, but I didn't get one. The set came with a small, re-fillable, O2 bottle and can be used with propane, butane or acetylene - I use propane. The major problem I found was that of getting the O2 bottle refilled. Although I had a copy of a letter from British Oxygen agreeing that they would refill at any of their depots, I was always met with suspicion and hassle, and what should have taken 10 minutes usually took about 90. The torch works very well but I've now given up using the straight nozzles in favour of a water torch (generates O2 and H from water), and use the rosettes on the Q-tube for melting. -- Regards, Gary Wooding (To reply by email, change feet to foot in my address) -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com |
#13
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Buying a prop-ox torch setup
On Sun, 11 Mar 2007 08:03:01 -0700 in rec.crafts.jewelry lemel_man
, intended to write something intelligible, but instead wrote : C0nnie wrote: ...snip... Well I hit the mother lode today that corresponds with all of your advice. Went to visit my fave goldsmith and he showed me his Meco Midget and why he likes it (bigger output/ more versatile than Smith Little). Then went to the local welders supply and coincidentally the Smith rep was there. I told him about the Midget and he showed me the Smith Quickbraze. (see http://www.smithequipment.com/produc...z/quickbrz.htm ) What a nice lil gadget with kevlar covering the hoses. Bigger than the Little torch, but still quite petite. Comes with 4 tips, one is a dual flame, looks like a horseshoe, one is the typical small aperture of jewelers, one is a rosette. One tip is on a long copper tube extending it beyond or between something awkward- this is for heating and ac guys. Still, the setup meets and exceeds all my needs for years to come. I plan to get it Monday. With the oxygen regulator H1940G-540 and a single-stage propane regulator, it will total out to about $360. This looks exactly like the MicroFlame torch set that I've been using for about 20 years here in UK. The UK company is in a small town called Diss, in Norfolk. It came with a range of small straight tips, the 2 smallest of which have drilled ruby nozzles, and a range of rosette tips that can be screwed to the end of tube shaped rather like a question mark. A twin-nozzle (the 'horseshoe' one) is available for soldering pipes on refrigerators and the like, but I didn't get one. FWIW I'm also a certified HVAC technician and we don't use those things. If anything we use either the red-handled ace/air torches or the handheld mapgas things (though I don't use either 'cause I don't do any HVAC work at all. Strictly jewelry.) The set came with a small, re-fillable, O2 bottle and can be used with propane, butane or acetylene - I use propane. The major problem I found was that of getting the O2 bottle refilled. Although I had a copy of a letter from British Oxygen agreeing that they would refill at any of their depots, I was always met with suspicion and hassle, and what should have taken 10 minutes usually took about 90. The torch works very well but I've now given up using the straight nozzles in favour of a water torch (generates O2 and H from water), and use the rosettes on the Q-tube for melting. -- Regards, Gary Wooding (To reply by email, change feet to foot in my address) -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com |
#14
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Buying a prop-ox torch setup
mbstevens wrote:
[1] This is an animated cartoon character who sells propane. "... and propane accessories." !!!!!!! Haha, sorry--you left out that last (and funniest) line of his catchphrase. I had to tack it on, it just looked so weird being all unfinished & naked like that. :-) -- m3rma1d -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com |
#15
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Buying a prop-ox torch setup
Hello all, Well I finally decided to get the Hoke for propane/ oxygen. Since I have no torch at all now, a Hoke will be much better. The investment is less than it would be with other torches. I also got the adapter set. I got flashback arrestors, and now I just need to get a tank of propane, an oxygen cylinder (I think I'll get R size, 20 cu ft), hoses, and regulators. I heard that oxygen pressure changes with fullness of the tank. I was told that a special regulator for oxygen that keeps underlying pressure to 20 psi and adjusts separately (sort of like dual stage) is available from Smith. It's item # H1940-G-540 for $78.00. I am within minutes of 4 welding supplies and 2 gas delivery services, so availability is not a problem. I also have city gas but I don't want the expense of running gas pipe. I want to do granulation in Argentium and fine silver. I'll keep y'all posted... |
#16
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granulation
When C0nnie put fingers to keys it was 3/17/07 1:56 AM...
I want to do granulation in Argentium and fine silver. I'll keep y'all posted... What little I know of granulation says you need to be using an alloy and that trying to do it with fine silver will be a problem. Do I need to know more about granulation? - C |
#17
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granulation
On Tue, 17 Apr 2007 22:59:52 -0700, in rec.crafts.jewelry Carl
wrote: When C0nnie put fingers to keys it was 3/17/07 1:56 AM... I want to do granulation in Argentium and fine silver. I'll keep y'all posted... What little I know of granulation says you need to be using an alloy and that trying to do it with fine silver will be a problem. Do I need to know more about granulation? - C yes, you need to know a bit more. Fine silver, or fine gold, are the easiest to granulate. Alloys are increasingly difficult as their melting points drop. Granulation is done by causing the surface skin of the granules to melt before the granule itself, or the base plate, does. This is done in several ways. One is to copper plate the granules. The usual method is to put the grains in an iron cup/container, along with some well used (turned blue in color) pickle, or just plain copper sulphate solution (about the same thing, used pickle that's already at hand is of course cheaper) The resulting electrolytic action copper plates the grains, which can then be placed on the desired surface, usually with a mix of dilute orgainic glue, perhaps a trace of flux, and water. . Another method is to glue unplated grains in place on the backing surface with a mix of organic glue (hide glue, for example) often a trace of flux, and a mix of powdered copper salts. When this is heated, to glue carbonizes, and causes the copper salts to reduce to metallic copper, leaving traces of copper metal on the grains and in the contact areas. With the plated grain method, the copper is already there, so no reducing action is needed. Either way, then upon further heating, when the eutectic temperature between copper and gold or silver (whichever is being worked) is reached, the copper then forms a eutectic alloys as a liquid on the surfaces of the grains, essentially becoming a faint thin liquid layer of solder on the surface. It's so little that upon continued heating, the copper quickly diffuses further into both the grains and the substrate, leaving the grains now affixed in place. A further method, better suited to lower karats (not too low, but say, 18K) can be done by first heating the grains repeatedly in an oxidizing atmosphere. This causes copper oxides to form on the surface, and copper near the surface of the grains to diffuse towards the surface and concentrate there as the oxide. The layer of metal just under the surface ends up copper depleted slightly. In any case, you've got a higher percentage of copper at the surface, as oxide, than in the alloy itself. These grains are then glued in place same as for other methods, and heating lets for formed carbon (from the glue) reduce the copper skin surface to copper, and from there the process is identical. High karat alloys, or pure metals, are easier to granulate simply because the difference between the temperature where bonding takes place, and that where the substrate or granules actually melt on their own, is greater, allowing easier working without melting accidents. As to the original question, whether or not argentum silver granulates would depend on whether a copper layer on it's surface lowers the metling point at the interface between the two, and on whether the resulting eutectic bond formed if they grains can be affixed this way, is strong enough. Some alloys can be granulated, but the results are not satisfactory since the joints are so brittle the grains fall off again too easily. I don't know if this is the case with argentum, but I'd not expect it to be. fine silver, though, is relatively easy to granulate. Peter Rowe |
#18
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granulation
When Peter W.. Rowe, put fingers to keys it was 4/18/07 2:15 AM...
... Do I need to know more about granulation? yes, you need to know a bit more. Fine silver, or fine gold, are the easiest to granulate. Alloys are increasingly difficult as their melting points drop. Granulation is done by causing the surface skin of the granules to melt before the granule itself, or the base plate, does. This is done in several ways. One is to copper plate the granules.... Ah yes, it comes back to me now. Sorry about the audible brain fart, I had it inside out, but thanks for the information all in one place. Another one for the file. - C |
#19
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granulation
On Apr 18, 8:47 am, Carl wrote:
When Peter W.. Rowe, put fingers to keys it was 4/18/07 2:15 AM... ... Do I need to know more about granulation? yes, you need to know a bit more. Fine silver, or fine gold, are the easiest to granulate. Alloys are increasingly difficult as their melting points drop. Granulation is done by causing the surface skin of the granules to melt before the granule itself, or the base plate, does. This is done in several ways. One is to copper plate the granules.... Ah yes, it comes back to me now. Sorry about the audible brain fart, I had it inside out, but thanks for the information all in one place. Another one for the file. - C Hello Peter and Carl. I was unaware of the copper part. I have bought and watched (repeatedly) Ronda Coryell's DVD "The Art of Granulation" in which there is no copper plating of the fine silver she uses. I have imitated the technique and it has come out quite nicely. Also had some flubs. Anyway do you know of her technique? I found it quite worthwhile to watch and take notes. I enjoy reading about all methods to accomplish the same result. There are many considerations that may come up in the future that might change my favorite one. |
#20
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granulation
On Thu, 19 Apr 2007 21:52:11 -0700, in rec.crafts.jewelry C0nnie
wrote: Hello Peter and Carl. I was unaware of the copper part. I have bought and watched (repeatedly) Ronda Coryell's DVD "The Art of Granulation" in which there is no copper plating of the fine silver she uses. I have imitated the technique and it has come out quite nicely. Also had some flubs. Anyway do you know of her technique? I found it quite worthwhile to watch and take notes. I enjoy reading about all methods to accomplish the same result. There are many considerations that may come up in the future that might change my favorite one. Hi Connie, I'm not specifically aware of Ronda's method or DVD. But it's true enough that copper plating isn't the only means to granulate. Any technique which will allow the surface of the grains to become liquid long enough to form a slight bond with whatever surface they touch (other grains, or the substrate surface) will allow granulation to be done. Copper plating, or the use of copper salts mixed with the glue, or the raising of copper oxides to the surface of the grains by repeated heatings, is just one way. When Littledale published his efforts to reinvent/rediscover the methods by which ancient granulation was done, in the 30s, I think, his discovered method was the use of metallic salts added to the glue mix to affix the grains. Copper salts were the main one he used with the most success, and this is how that variation of the method has most frequently been taught, but Littledale also discussed the fact that salts of any metal which would be reduced by heating in the presence of carbon to a metal, and which would then form a eutectic alloy with the silver or gold being bonded, could be used. One could theoretically use a mix of salts which would, upon reduction, give a mix approximating almost any solder recipe you could wish. The main key is that the method results in an exceedingly small amount of "solder" at the surfaces, so that delicate granulation results rather than flooding of the grains with too much solder, which is what almost invariably happens when actual solder is used. Using the copper plating method to coat the grains is simply a shortcut over the use of metal salts, and it's ease of use is the main reason it's been widely taught. But as I said, it's not the only way. John Paul Miller, for example, did not plate his grains. Instead, he heated them in air to raise an oxide layer on the surface. That leaves a copper enriched surface, and a copper depleted area just under the surface. That depelted layer is then slightly harder to melt, so the grains are less likely to melt when granulated, if heating is very closely controlled. And Elizabeth Treskow is said to have done considerable granulation with pure gold, using just saliva to adhere the grains. Here theory was that the slight amount of organic material therein, would carbonize, as does glue mixes used by other workers, and with pure gold or silver, that carbon would lead to the formation of small amounts of gold or silver carbide alloying with the surface, slightly lowering it's melting point over that of the metal itself, allowing granulation to be done that way. At least that's what i've been told. i've not seen this published directly by her. But I've seen the "carbide" theory of how granulation can be done promoted by other writers too. In truth, there are no doubt multiple methods of doing this. Some methods will work better for some people than for others. it remains a mystery just how ancient granulation was actually done, since even with modern work, the formation of teltale surface alloys that might show exactly how the work is done simply doesn't happen well, and with old work, diffusion over time of copper or other metals into a surface mean there's no evidence anymore to show. One can deduce simply by the ease with which one can accidentally get an excess of copper on a surface, either by working with old pickle or similar acid chemistry, along with copper or bronze utensils, or by the probable coesixtance within a workshop area of other sources of copper, including copper salts, which might easily have lead to accidental discoveries of a soldering method by ancient workers. But even if we knew for certain how ancient granulation was done, it still doesn't negate the fact that with modern knowledge of metalurgy, and the modern armament of tools and heating methods and chemistry with which we can work, there will be considerable options we can explore in doing this. Still, I'm curious. Can you explain how Ronda does it? thanks. Peter Rowe |
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