Soldering

Hello Jack,

You seem to be correct in most of your assumptions about soldering. The dark
and dirty secret about soldering, in the jewelry trade, is that the same
basic principles apply to all soldering no matter what the metals or
temperatures .

However, I think that you will find that most of the 'absolute knowledge'
held by jewelers about soldering is based on mythology and personal
experience. I don't think you will find a real definitive authority for
precious metal soldering like you can find in the NASA studies of tin/lead
soldering. But, these studies can be applied to precious metal soldering
very easily with the benefit of some practical knowledge, which you seem to
easily acquire.

When you question beliefs that are held without foundation you are stepping
on vipers. I think that is why you got the negative reaction to your post
(which I thought was a valid question for this group).

In any case I doubt that you will get a decent and knowledgeable answer to
your query on this site.



"Jack Schmidling" wrote in message
...
I have been soldering since about 10 years old but pretty much confined to
a
soldering iron.

The problems of attaching gem heads with a torch seem a bit daunting.

My current project is to be-jewel a silver chalice with my faceted and
cabbed stones. On my practice goblet, I have been using Crazy Glue with
no
problems other than the fact that they would probably all fall off if I
dropped it.

Could someone point me to some basics on soldering with a torch?

I have silver bearing solder that can be melted with a hot iron but
getting
the base hot enough to wet is a bit of a problem.

js


--
PHOTO OF THE WEEK: http://schmidling.netfirms.com/weekly.htm
Astronomy, Beer, Cheese, Gems, Sausage, http://schmidling.netfirms.com

Lamedeer wrote:

Hello Jack,

You seem to be correct in most of your assumptions about soldering. The dark
and dirty secret about soldering, in the jewelry trade, is that the same
basic principles apply to all soldering no matter what the metals or
temperatures .

However, I think that you will find that most of the 'absolute knowledge'
held by jewelers about soldering is based on mythology and personal
experience.

Wrong.

I don't think you will find a real definitive authority for
precious metal soldering like you can find in the NASA studies of tin/lead
soldering.

Yes you can. Theory and Practice of Goldsmithing by Erhard Brepohl.
Beautifully translated from German by my friend Charles Lewton-Brtain. Edited
and published by Tim McCreight.
http://www.ganoksin.com/jewelry-book...0961598492.htm

Or: Jewelry Concepts and Technology by Oppi Untracht
http://www.ganoksin.com/jewelry-book...0709196164.htm


But, these studies can be applied to precious metal soldering
very easily with the benefit of some practical knowledge, which you seem to
easily acquire.

No they cannot. Tin/lead soldering and precious metal soldering are not at all
comparable. Two totally different processes.


When you question beliefs that are held without foundation you are stepping
on vipers.

Beliefs? Without foundation? All three of your statements above illustrate
quite clearly that you do not know what you are talking about as far as
soldering of precious metals is concerned.

Mythology, ... my ass. More like 30 years of pragmatism.

Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com

"Lamedeer"

When you question beliefs that are held without foundation you are
stepping
on vipers.

Funny you should mention that. "Stepping on vipers" has been my modus
operandi throughout life and just might have something to do with how I
built a successful electronics business, sold it and retired young enough to
enjoy my other hobbies.

Thanks for your kind words.

js


--
PHOTO OF THE WEEK: http://schmidling.netfirms.com/weekly.htm
Astronomy, Beer, Cheese, Gems, Sausage, http://schmidling.netfirms.com

On Fri, 09 Jul 2004 18:45:36 -0700, in ¤ô "Lamedeer"
wrote:

Hello Jack,

You seem to be correct in most of your assumptions about soldering. The dark
and dirty secret about soldering, in the jewelry trade, is that the same
basic principles apply to all soldering no matter what the metals or
temperatures .

Dark and dirty? well, high temperature (hard) soldering sometimes is easier in
subdued light, but not always. And dirty? not if you want good solder flow.
And I really just don't know what you are getting at by alluding to soldering in
the jewelry industry as being some sort of dirty dark secret. it's just another
set of skills. The practice, metallurgy, and nuances of good results vary with
different types of metals, as well as the types of solders and temperature
ranges. For example: With gold and silver solders, the bond is very much more
than just solder wetting the metal. There's a lot of actual penetration of the
surface of the joined parts, increasing with higher temp solders. With tin/lead
solders, there's very little, and the bond is much more akin to that achieved
with a very good glue. Another: With many soldering operations, both tin/lead
or silver/gold, fluxing is critical to success. But move to platinum solders,
and it's entirely optional, and can actually cause trouble with some solders.
And anthother: It's a mantra with silver soldering that you have to heat the
whole piece, pretty much, since silver is such a good heat conductor that
unless you're at least trying to do this, it will be difficult to get a good
joint. But use tin based solders on pewter, and you don't do this at all. Spot
welding with a torch is much more akin to pewter soldering, and works just fine.
And with oxy/gas torches working with gold and platinum, often it's not needed
to worry about evenly heating the whole piece, just both sides of the joint.
And so it goes. While very general principals may be similar to most soldering
operations, each metal and solder has important individual differences that need
to be addressed for good results.


However, I think that you will find that most of the 'absolute knowledge'
held by jewelers about soldering is based on mythology and personal
experience.

While there are many jewelers who don't fully understand the metalurgy behind
why soldering/brazing works, the knowledge even then is rarely mythology, but is
practical experience in what works best.

I don't think you will find a real definitive authority for
precious metal soldering like you can find in the NASA studies of tin/lead
soldering.

Oh nonsense. It's well written up in many places. Handy and Harmon publishes a
good deal of info on their soldering/brazing alloys for one, and many of the
more advanced or detailed "instruction" books also go to some length to properly
describe the processes. Want engineering level studies, well there's lots of
that too. But you have to go to the right places. Rio Grande's Santa Fe
symposium books have some excellent articles at that level, as do the world gold
council's many publications, or any number of good textbooks on formal
metalurgy, many of which address precious metals as well as the more common (in
industry) copper based ones. Most of the better refiners/metals suppliers have
detailed technical info available on their solder alloys if you ask. The thing
is simply that you have to go to sources aimed at a real technical level of
information. Just like with your NASA study, where NASA is working with
rocketry at a higher level than the local hobby shop's "Estes" rocket kits. You
won't find your detailed engineering level soldering info published in those
"you can make jewelry at home in your kitchen" level beginning instruction
books, but why on earth would you expect to find that level of info in that
level of resource?

When you question beliefs that are held without foundation you are stepping
on vipers. I think that is why you got the negative reaction to your post
(which I thought was a valid question for this group).

so far, I've seen few beliefs expressed in this thread that were without
foundation. Your post comes as close as any. There HAVE been some posts based
on erroneous reading or interpretation of the posts they responded to, and there
certainly have been some folks with short tempers, or a willingness to assume
something wasn't such a good idea, rather than just attempting to answer the
question.

But in between the various bits of negatism, there have also been honest and
usefully helpful bits of info offered. The questions asked were certainly
valid. The responses, even when negative, have generally been honest as well.

There is an old adage about experts being the folks who'll tell you why you
cannot do a thing, while amateurs are the ones who, not knowing better, got
ahead and do the thing anyway. Sometimes those of us who've been at this for a
few decades, and have made every mistake under the sun to learn the skills,
forget that letting someone try a thing, even if it's a dubious idea, is a great
way for that person to learn a LOT.

I might behoove all of us to remember that while a newcomer or beginner may be
asking for trouble in trying what we believe will be difficult, or not the best
way to achieve a good result, it's not really for us to make that decision for
the newcomer. Advice is all well and good. But try to be helpful first, and
critical only when it too is helpful, or is well deserved. And those asking for
help should remember that nobody in this group, or anywhere else, is obligated
to provide any help. So a certain degree of graciousness in response to
whatever help is found may be a more productive attitude than high levels of
arrogance and defensiveness over those who may be less helpful.

Ah well. I'm starting to sound preachy. Sorry 'bout that. Been a long, tiring
day. Good thing I can sleep in tomorrow morning. (oh, wait. i can't
either...too much to do...)

Cheers

Peter



In any case I doubt that you will get a decent and knowledgeable answer to
your query on this site.

I wonder if the expert metalsmiths would be over their heads if faced with a
faceting machine and wanted to cut gems to solder on their masterpieces.

Well, I'm reasonably sure if we needed info, we would not ask it of you
(inventorboy). Most of us are smart enough to know who the experts are, and use
them. Unless we wanted to cut marbles.
Most of us have already cut and polished more stones than you, and your tin
plated faceting machine has, or will ever. More importantly, we have learned to
farm that kind of work out to experts who *actually* know what they are doing
(and for alo less money.
My time is better spent

Hello Peter,

Your concepts regarding soft soldering are incorrect. If they were not there
would be no space program. You might check out the NASA studies for more
information. Company sponsored studies are usually self serving.

"Peter W. Rowe" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 09 Jul 2004 18:45:36 -0700, in ¤ô "Lamedeer"

wrote:

Hello Jack,

You seem to be correct in most of your assumptions about soldering. The
dark
and dirty secret about soldering, in the jewelry trade, is that the same
basic principles apply to all soldering no matter what the metals or
temperatures .

Dark and dirty? well, high temperature (hard) soldering sometimes is
easier in
subdued light, but not always. And dirty? not if you want good solder
flow.
And I really just don't know what you are getting at by alluding to
soldering in
the jewelry industry as being some sort of dirty dark secret. it's just
another
set of skills. The practice, metallurgy, and nuances of good results
vary with
different types of metals, as well as the types of solders and temperature
ranges. For example: With gold and silver solders, the bond is very much
more
than just solder wetting the metal. There's a lot of actual penetration
of the
surface of the joined parts, increasing with higher temp solders. With
tin/lead
solders, there's very little, and the bond is much more akin to that
achieved
with a very good glue. Another: With many soldering operations, both
tin/lead
or silver/gold, fluxing is critical to success. But move to platinum
solders,
and it's entirely optional, and can actually cause trouble with some
solders.
And anthother: It's a mantra with silver soldering that you have to heat
the
whole piece, pretty much, since silver is such a good heat conductor that
unless you're at least trying to do this, it will be difficult to get a
good
joint. But use tin based solders on pewter, and you don't do this at all.
Spot
welding with a torch is much more akin to pewter soldering, and works just
fine.
And with oxy/gas torches working with gold and platinum, often it's not
needed
to worry about evenly heating the whole piece, just both sides of the
joint.
And so it goes. While very general principals may be similar to most
soldering
operations, each metal and solder has important individual differences
that need
to be addressed for good results.


However, I think that you will find that most of the 'absolute
knowledge'
held by jewelers about soldering is based on mythology and personal
experience.

While there are many jewelers who don't fully understand the metalurgy
behind
why soldering/brazing works, the knowledge even then is rarely mythology,
but is
practical experience in what works best.

I don't think you will find a real definitive authority for
precious metal soldering like you can find in the NASA studies of
tin/lead
soldering.

Oh nonsense. It's well written up in many places. Handy and Harmon
publishes a
good deal of info on their soldering/brazing alloys for one, and many of
the
more advanced or detailed "instruction" books also go to some length to
properly
describe the processes. Want engineering level studies, well there's lots
of
that too. But you have to go to the right places. Rio Grande's Santa Fe
symposium books have some excellent articles at that level, as do the
world gold
council's many publications, or any number of good textbooks on formal
metalurgy, many of which address precious metals as well as the more
common (in
industry) copper based ones. Most of the better refiners/metals
suppliers have
detailed technical info available on their solder alloys if you ask. The
thing
is simply that you have to go to sources aimed at a real technical level
of
information. Just like with your NASA study, where NASA is working with
rocketry at a higher level than the local hobby shop's "Estes" rocket
kits. You
won't find your detailed engineering level soldering info published in
those
"you can make jewelry at home in your kitchen" level beginning instruction
books, but why on earth would you expect to find that level of info in
that
level of resource?

When you question beliefs that are held without foundation you are
stepping
on vipers. I think that is why you got the negative reaction to your
post
(which I thought was a valid question for this group).

so far, I've seen few beliefs expressed in this thread that were without
foundation. Your post comes as close as any. There HAVE been some posts
based
on erroneous reading or interpretation of the posts they responded to, and
there
certainly have been some folks with short tempers, or a willingness to
assume
something wasn't such a good idea, rather than just attempting to answer
the
question.

But in between the various bits of negatism, there have also been honest
and
usefully helpful bits of info offered. The questions asked were certainly
valid. The responses, even when negative, have generally been honest as
well.

There is an old adage about experts being the folks who'll tell you why
you
cannot do a thing, while amateurs are the ones who, not knowing better,
got
ahead and do the thing anyway. Sometimes those of us who've been at this
for a
few decades, and have made every mistake under the sun to learn the
skills,
forget that letting someone try a thing, even if it's a dubious idea, is a
great
way for that person to learn a LOT.

I might behoove all of us to remember that while a newcomer or beginner
may be
asking for trouble in trying what we believe will be difficult, or not the
best
way to achieve a good result, it's not really for us to make that decision
for
the newcomer. Advice is all well and good. But try to be helpful first,
and
critical only when it too is helpful, or is well deserved. And those
asking for
help should remember that nobody in this group, or anywhere else, is
obligated
to provide any help. So a certain degree of graciousness in response to
whatever help is found may be a more productive attitude than high levels
of
arrogance and defensiveness over those who may be less helpful.

Ah well. I'm starting to sound preachy. Sorry 'bout that. Been a long,
tiring
day. Good thing I can sleep in tomorrow morning. (oh, wait. i can't
either...too much to do...)

Cheers

Peter



In any case I doubt that you will get a decent and knowledgeable answer
to
your query on this site.

"NE333RO"

Well, I'm reasonably sure if we needed info, we would not ask it of
you
(inventorboy).

This is really getting sick. Name calling? Good grief!

Most of us have already cut and polished more stones than you, and
your tin
plated faceting machine has, or will ever.

Tin plated? You can do better.

Marbles? I have faceted about 15 varities of gem material from calcite to
ruby .with the "tin plated machine"

But the real point is, I will bet a faceting machine that you can not prove
that "most" of this list has ever cut a single stone. I would guess that it
is less than 5% of "us".

More importantly, we have learned to farm that kind of work out to experts
who *actually* know what they are doing. (and for alo less money. My time
is better spent.........

That is an incredibly ignorant thing to say. You are suggesting that
learning a new craft is a waste of time and money. I would still be playing
with blocks if I took that attitude.

js


--
PHOTO OF THE WEEK: http://schmidling.netfirms.com/weekly.htm
Astronomy, Beer, Cheese, Gems, Sausage, http://schmidling.netfirms.com

Peter W. Rowe wrote:

So a certain degree of graciousness in response to
whatever help is found may be a more productive
attitude than high levels of
arrogance and defensiveness over those
who may be less helpful.

;~)
He may be a bit defensive, but not plonkably so.
He's certainly not a match for
*sweet* old Unkle Hardsolder.
;~)
(Sorry, new cats; it's an inside joke.)
--
m

On Sat, 10 Jul 2004 10:38:59 -0700, in ôô m
wrote:

Peter W. Rowe wrote:

So a certain degree of graciousness in response to
whatever help is found may be a more productive
attitude than high levels of
arrogance and defensiveness over those
who may be less helpful.

;~)
He may be a bit defensive, but not plonkably so.
He's certainly not a match for
*sweet* old Unkle Hardsolder.

Agreed. As was observed to me in an email wherein NE333RO asked that last
night's post be cancelled (an only marginally effective procedure), last night
was kinda long and tiring for some, and perhaps things in this thread are
getting a little strained beyond what's really deserved. I overstanted myself.

Peter

On Sat, 10 Jul 2004 10:38:59 -0700, in ô m
wrote:

He's certainly not a match for
*sweet* old Unkle Hardsolder.
;~)
(Sorry, new cats; it's an inside joke.)
--
m

Actually, that brings up a good bit of info. For someone wishing to learn hard
soldering online, Don Norris (whom I presume is the fellow alluded to above)
would be glad to teach it online. His method uses only hard solder grades (and
lots of it), along with cheap hardware store propane plumber's torches.
Not all of us agree with hsi method, but it works fine for him and apparently,
for his students. Different strokes...

Peter