The ongoing story of knitting sheaths for Aaron and Noreen

Noreen and Aaron, you two got me doing research on the knitting stick
(breischede in Dutch). It is a very interesting topic, and one that was
studied while I was still in school in the early fifties.

I found one great article about these sticks in an old Dutch magazine
that is no longer published. I have scanned it if either one of you want
it just for the pictures, because the text is Dutch. An extended search
on the Internet, using the Dutch term breischede got me all kinds of great
information, but sometimes-conflicting explanations. I seem to remember
that we were taught during my textile training years, that it was a tool
used by shepherds, while they were tending their sheep. With one of the
knitting needles held firmly in the knitting stick, the shepherd could let
go of the knitting if he needed both hands to tend to his flock, or
scratch his noose etc.

Via references on the Internet, I found another great article in another
magazine I have on my bookshelf. Here they talk more about the practical
size of the tool while on the Internet, they talk about protection from
the sharp point of the needles (like you do Aaron). However both state
that since the needles used at that time were short, it added length to
the needles. The needles shown in an old picture that goes with the
article, are the same needles my mother used. They are short and made of
steel, but never that sharp that you were going to get hurt with them.

The knitting stick was tucked inside the shepherd, fisherman, and farmer¹s
belt or tied to his waist with a rope. They were made of wood, copper,
tin, bone, ivory, silver, leather and even gold. The average size is
about 20 cm. At one end there is a tiny hole of about 2 cm deep, to put
your knitting needle in. They were straight, or sometimes curved, or even
with a hooked shape. They are all elaborately carved and decorated. I
would say of the ones I have seen in the pictures, that they are all
pieces of art. The men tucked this tool inside their belt, or sometimes
they made a hole in the stick to pull their belt through. They often had
this stick sitting on a slant or in a vertical position. Women on the
other hand seemed to have had it laying more horizontal, either tucked
under their arm, or in the apron band. While writing the last sentence, I
realize that that is why my mother and Otto¹s mother tucked their knitting
needles under one arm; a continuation of the knitting stick tucked under
the arm. Some of the sticks would have a ring attached to them with a
short chain, to attach to the clothing. A hook carved into the wood was to
hang your yarn onto. It would make it easier to carry your ball of yarn
around as well as have your hands free, if you were walking or standing
about.

The practical purpose of this tool was to be able to put your knitting
needle into this stick, and have one hand, or both hands free if needed.
It gave stability to the work you were knitting, and also extended the
size of the short knitting needles. Here comes to good part Aaron and
Noreen, the other reason for using the stick was that the knitting could
be done faster. More socks, caps, shawls and socking knitted the more
money was earned

It also stated in the article that for hundreds of year¹s poorer folks,
including the children did the knitting for the richer folks. It was
often done while walking or doing other daily tasks. There is not all
that much written on how everyone did the technical part of the knitting,
and if that was done the same everywhere (England, Holland, and Scotland),
however there have been knitting sticks found in England and Scotland, as
well as the Netherlands. In paintings of knitting persons it is hard to
see if there are knitting sticks used because the stick sort of tucks in
under the arm, and can¹t be seen.

There you go. Aaron in the one article, they showed a leather one with a
belt attached on either side, so you can put it around your waist. They
are still in use on the Shetland Islands. There are also very good
photographs of a woman in Staphorts (Holland) using a silver one attached
to her apron band with a small chain and safety pin, so if the knitting
tube comes away from under her apron belt, it will not fall to the floor,
but stays with her.
When you look at that one, it looks very much like the little tubes you
get sometimes with one flower in it. It is flared at the top. Aaron,
much better there is wooden model you can make yourself. I will scan it
and I can sent it to you

Ok you two, keep on knitting away, but do remember that there must be an
element of joy and fun in it as well never mind the speed. Live goes fast
enough as it is.



PS here is a website, that will sell replicas of the ones they have in
their museum. The look similar to some of the Dutch ones.

http://www.beamishcollections.com/collections/itemlist.asp?MainCatID=4&SubCatID=56

the second website is the Dutch one, with a picture of a woman in the
north of Holland knitting with a Breischei. It is very hard to see, but
it is tucked in under her right arm with the fourth knitting needle pushed
inside it. She lived in Moddergat (that translates into mudhole LOL) I
have been there and the little houses sit right behind the seadike,
overlooking the Waddezee. It is a tiny fisherman's village, where life
was hard, and also death at sea alway close at hand.

http://berthi.web-log.nl/archief/05/02/2006

Enoug for one night and it is all your fault guys, you got me going on this

Goodnight

Els

Thank you Elsje this was wonderful .
What i find interesting in this discussion , that rarely any info was
[or is now] found from the East [ Middle East] from where this Blessed
art originates. Climate asc well as most people being Numads at least
part of the year, haven`t left much written material, about the
techingues in which it was done. But please rmember that Much info
isn`t known , most is quite recent info, and speaks more of the last
centuries than about the Former ages.
Just a thought ,, reading all this Beautiful info.
mirjam

In article ,
(Mirjam Bruck-Cohen) wrote:

Thank you Elsje this was wonderful .
What i find interesting in this discussion , that rarely any info was
[or is now] found from the East [ Middle East] from where this Blessed
art originates. Climate asc well as most people being Numads at least
part of the year, haven`t left much written material, about the
techingues in which it was done. But please rmember that Much info
isn`t known , most is quite recent info, and speaks more of the last
centuries than about the Former ages.
Just a thought ,, reading all this Beautiful info.
mirjam

Mirjam, both articles base their information, on Dutch and English
historian's writings (Dr. Hendrik Wiegersma). Indeed these details were
all collected during the early Twentieth century. A comment in one of
these articles said that lots of know how was based on the finding, and
studying of the Breischede itself. The ones found in the Netherlands, and
neighborouring country Belgium, as well as from England, and Scotland. Do
not forget that at that time in Holland there were still men and woman
using this tool, and that in itself brought lots of good insights on how
it was used. The knitting itself was done with small differences.
However when you think about it, we all have the use of two hands, and we
also know that there are two basic stitches. So the rest are small
variations on a theme, such as how to hold the knitting needles, and
knitting with the thread around your neck, using hooks at the end of your
knitting needles as some of the South American native indians do. They
got their techniques from the Portuguese and Spanjards. Now you have a
trail back to the beginning, since those two countries had close
relationships, friendly or unfriendly with North Africa, and the countries
around the Mediterranean Sea. A close Dutch friend went on a trip to
South America, and brought back a small hand knitted bag for me. She
watched the man she bought it from, knit it. He had the thread wrapped
around his neck first, running from the ball pinned to his jacked. He
used very fine knitting needles with indeed little hooks on the end.

Those little bits of historical textile nuggets are great to gather.

OK back to real work here, have a great day everyone

Els

"Els van Dam" wrote in message
...
Noreen and Aaron, you two got me doing research on the knitting stick
(breischede in Dutch). It is a very interesting topic, and one that was
studied while I was still in school in the early fifties.

[wow -- very good information clipped for space]

Els, this was marvellous. Thank you so much for posting the descriptions
and the links. I really enjoyed reading all of this.

--Threnody

You know of course that the first knitting needles looked more like
crochet needles they had hook at the end ..
Still i tottaly agree with Elizabeth Wayland Barber`s insight, that
male Archeologists or Non Textilic working researchers, who did those
kinds of researches were not always aware of all the facts, or how
this tools were REALLY used . . Alas in my experience i get every year
a student or 2 from some Archelogy department , researching some
Textilic related matter, The IDEAS some of those professors have ,
arising from the plain fact "that THEY NEVER TRIED it themselves"
Illuminates Professor` Wayland Barber`s remark. Thus whenever i read
any such research i try and do it myself.. Many years ago i was lucky
to have a neighbour who came from a country where people knitted with
all this methods . She willingly taught me , and i even excelled at
it. But it was very useless to me since i didn`t knit while walking
on the road in the mountains. i usually do it sitting [ sometimes
standing] in buses, trains, doctor`s waiting rooms , bank lines,
etc,,,, if i had on those contraptions, it would be Unefficcient ,
cause distractions etc.... having my knitting or other handcraft in a
little cloth bag [ no nylon noises] into which ican quickly push my
work when i have to move in my line , enter the doc`s room , get off
the bus ,,,, is more efficient and even SAFER for me and others .... I
live NOW here and i don`t walk those old pastures. i adjusted my Style
of work to my life now.
Maybe i sound a bit strong about this subject , but it parrallels
other debates going on in other parts of life.
In my Art i have professional debates with `conventional` artists, who
feeling that Fiberart is gaining slowly a position, [ and it is still
far from being shown as much as painting/sculpture] but those artists
feel threatened,and thus the New trend is painting and than Glue some
threads or old embroidery here and there over the painted canvas and
claim "we do Fiberart As well !!!" . This than gives Curtaors, the
`wonderful` excuse when Fiberartists complain, about the fiberart not
being shown enough, That They Show `fiberart`, and they point than at
some photographs or camvasses that have some threads stiched here and
there ....
I am al for learning new and old things , but i am also for taking the
things in proprtion of time, of us the makers now,, not the makers of
than .
mirjam

In article ,
(Mirjam Bruck-Cohen) wrote:

Thank you Elsje this was wonderful .
What i find interesting in this discussion , that rarely any info was
[or is now] found from the East [ Middle East] from where this Blessed
art originates. Climate asc well as most people being Numads at least
part of the year, haven`t left much written material, about the
techingues in which it was done. But please rmember that Much info
isn`t known , most is quite recent info, and speaks more of the last
centuries than about the Former ages.
Just a thought ,, reading all this Beautiful info.
mirjam

Mirjam, both articles base their information, on Dutch and English
historian's writings (Dr. Hendrik Wiegersma). Indeed these details were
all collected during the early Twentieth century. A comment in one of
these articles said that lots of know how was based on the finding, and
studying of the Breischede itself. The ones found in the Netherlands, and
neighborouring country Belgium, as well as from England, and Scotland. Do
not forget that at that time in Holland there were still men and woman
using this tool, and that in itself brought lots of good insights on how
it was used. The knitting itself was done with small differences.
However when you think about it, we all have the use of two hands, and we
also know that there are two basic stitches. So the rest are small
variations on a theme, such as how to hold the knitting needles, and
knitting with the thread around your neck, using hooks at the end of your
knitting needles as some of the South American native indians do. They
got their techniques from the Portuguese and Spanjards. Now you have a
trail back to the beginning, since those two countries had close
relationships, friendly or unfriendly with North Africa, and the countries
around the Mediterranean Sea. A close Dutch friend went on a trip to
South America, and brought back a small hand knitted bag for me. She
watched the man she bought it from, knit it. He had the thread wrapped
around his neck first, running from the ball pinned to his jacked. He
used very fine knitting needles with indeed little hooks on the end.

Those little bits of historical textile nuggets are great to gather.

OK back to real work here, have a great day everyone

Els

At this point, I must take a giant step backwards and speculate that
knitting sheaths were really at least 3 technologies that we have lumped
together because we do not understand how they really worked.

There is the "Channel" technology that used very long flexible needles.
There is the Scotch/Dutch technology that used shorter needles.

There were long straight knitting sheaths. Many with a hook for supporting
the weight of the knitted fabric.
There were crescent shaped knitting sheaths.
There were also bundles of straw or feathers that were tied together and
inserted into the apron strings. A DPN inserted into the bundle is loosely
supported. This only works for fairly short needles.
There is the Shetland leather and horse hair knitting pouch.

There is the Yorkshire Dale technology where highly trained knitters rocked
foreword and backwards. (The alternate contraction of the abdominals and
lattisimus dorsi muscles causes a needle tightly bound to the waist to move
in a flat left-right arc i.e., in and out of stitches.) I have figured out
the motion, but not how to use it.)

And, there is the use of knitting sheaths to support the work during
interruptions.

I do not think that it was a mix and match deal. I think there were definite
systems and knitters selected the system that met their needs.

Aaron
"Els van Dam" wrote in message
...
Noreen and Aaron, you two got me doing research on the knitting stick
(breischede in Dutch). It is a very interesting topic, and one that was
studied while I was still in school in the early fifties.

I found one great article about these sticks in an old Dutch magazine
that is no longer published. I have scanned it if either one of you want
it just for the pictures, because the text is Dutch. An extended search
on the Internet, using the Dutch term breischede got me all kinds of great
information, but sometimes-conflicting explanations. I seem to remember
that we were taught during my textile training years, that it was a tool
used by shepherds, while they were tending their sheep. With one of the
knitting needles held firmly in the knitting stick, the shepherd could let
go of the knitting if he needed both hands to tend to his flock, or
scratch his noose etc.

Via references on the Internet, I found another great article in another
magazine I have on my bookshelf. Here they talk more about the practical
size of the tool while on the Internet, they talk about protection from
the sharp point of the needles (like you do Aaron). However both state
that since the needles used at that time were short, it added length to
the needles. The needles shown in an old picture that goes with the
article, are the same needles my mother used. They are short and made of
steel, but never that sharp that you were going to get hurt with them.

The knitting stick was tucked inside the shepherd, fisherman, and farmer¹s
belt or tied to his waist with a rope. They were made of wood, copper,
tin, bone, ivory, silver, leather and even gold. The average size is
about 20 cm. At one end there is a tiny hole of about 2 cm deep, to put
your knitting needle in. They were straight, or sometimes curved, or even
with a hooked shape. They are all elaborately carved and decorated. I
would say of the ones I have seen in the pictures, that they are all
pieces of art. The men tucked this tool inside their belt, or sometimes
they made a hole in the stick to pull their belt through. They often had
this stick sitting on a slant or in a vertical position. Women on the
other hand seemed to have had it laying more horizontal, either tucked
under their arm, or in the apron band. While writing the last sentence, I
realize that that is why my mother and Otto¹s mother tucked their knitting
needles under one arm; a continuation of the knitting stick tucked under
the arm. Some of the sticks would have a ring attached to them with a
short chain, to attach to the clothing. A hook carved into the wood was to
hang your yarn onto. It would make it easier to carry your ball of yarn
around as well as have your hands free, if you were walking or standing
about.

The practical purpose of this tool was to be able to put your knitting
needle into this stick, and have one hand, or both hands free if needed.
It gave stability to the work you were knitting, and also extended the
size of the short knitting needles. Here comes to good part Aaron and
Noreen, the other reason for using the stick was that the knitting could
be done faster. More socks, caps, shawls and socking knitted the more
money was earned

It also stated in the article that for hundreds of year¹s poorer folks,
including the children did the knitting for the richer folks. It was
often done while walking or doing other daily tasks. There is not all
that much written on how everyone did the technical part of the knitting,
and if that was done the same everywhere (England, Holland, and Scotland),
however there have been knitting sticks found in England and Scotland, as
well as the Netherlands. In paintings of knitting persons it is hard to
see if there are knitting sticks used because the stick sort of tucks in
under the arm, and can¹t be seen.

There you go. Aaron in the one article, they showed a leather one with a
belt attached on either side, so you can put it around your waist. They
are still in use on the Shetland Islands. There are also very good
photographs of a woman in Staphorts (Holland) using a silver one attached
to her apron band with a small chain and safety pin, so if the knitting
tube comes away from under her apron belt, it will not fall to the floor,
but stays with her.
When you look at that one, it looks very much like the little tubes you
get sometimes with one flower in it. It is flared at the top. Aaron,
much better there is wooden model you can make yourself. I will scan it
and I can sent it to you

Ok you two, keep on knitting away, but do remember that there must be an
element of joy and fun in it as well never mind the speed. Live goes fast
enough as it is.



PS here is a website, that will sell replicas of the ones they have in
their museum. The look similar to some of the Dutch ones.


http://www.beamishcollections.com/co...inCatID=4&SubC
atID=56

the second website is the Dutch one, with a picture of a woman in the
north of Holland knitting with a Breischei. It is very hard to see, but
it is tucked in under her right arm with the fourth knitting needle pushed
inside it. She lived in Moddergat (that translates into mudhole LOL) I
have been there and the little houses sit right behind the seadike,
overlooking the Waddezee. It is a tiny fisherman's village, where life
was hard, and also death at sea alway close at hand.

http://berthi.web-log.nl/archief/05/02/2006

Enoug for one night and it is all your fault guys, you got me going on
this

Goodnight

Els

In article , "Threnody"
wrote:

"Els van Dam" wrote in message
...
Noreen and Aaron, you two got me doing research on the knitting stick
(breischede in Dutch). It is a very interesting topic, and one that was
studied while I was still in school in the early fifties.

[wow -- very good information clipped for space]

Els, this was marvellous. Thank you so much for posting the descriptions
and the links. I really enjoyed reading all of this.

--Threnody

Fun to get into the historical aspects of knitting.

Els

Els van Dam wrote:

PS here is a website, that will sell replicas of the ones they have in
their museum. The look similar to some of the Dutch ones.

http://www.beamishcollections.com/collections/itemlist.asp?MainCatID=4&SubCatID=56

Els, thank you SO much for this site. I grew up just a few miles from
there, but in my day the whole area was coal mining, shipbuilding and
heavy industry, plus some farming. As the coal mines and the steel
mills etc closed down, the area went to tourism and leisure to provide
work for the locals. I had heard from family of this museum which was
started after I came to the U.S., but I had no idea it was that good.
I have bookmarked the site, and DH and I will be spending time exploring
it once I get my WiFi sorted out.

Olwyn Mary in New Orleans.
*** Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com ***

In article , Olwyn Mary
wrote:

Els van Dam wrote:

PS here is a website, that will sell replicas of the ones they have in
their museum. The look similar to some of the Dutch ones.


http://www.beamishcollections.com/collections/itemlist.asp?MainCatID=4&SubCatID=56

Els, thank you SO much for this site. I grew up just a few miles from
there, but in my day the whole area was coal mining, shipbuilding and
heavy industry, plus some farming. As the coal mines and the steel
mills etc closed down, the area went to tourism and leisure to provide
work for the locals. I had heard from family of this museum which was
started after I came to the U.S., but I had no idea it was that good.
I have bookmarked the site, and DH and I will be spending time exploring
it once I get my WiFi sorted out.

Olwyn Mary in New Orleans.
*** Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com ***

Olwyn, You should thank Aaron and Noreen who started on this adventure
trail of knitting with long double pointed needles and the use of the
knitting sheaths (hope I spelled it correctly), to make knitting easier
while working or looking after sheep etc.

I love Textile histroy and adventures, that is how I got to this website,
with my nose on the ground, sniffing out a good story. I lovethis website
as well. It is great to have replicas for sale of the old items. Are you
going to buy one of them.

Do you miss living in England.

Els

Very Interesting!!
So many knitting sheaths, but not the knitting needles that were used with
them! Why? No needle gauges?(OK, she only had one set of needles.) No
crochet hooks? (If you are knitting with a sheath, you NEED a crochet hook
to pickup dropped stitches.) No darning needles or eggs? No scissors or
clippers? No sewing thimbles? What else is missing from this collection?

Aaron


"Olwyn Mary" wrote in message
om...
Els van Dam wrote:

PS here is a website, that will sell replicas of the ones they have in
their museum. The look similar to some of the Dutch ones.


http://www.beamishcollections.com/co...inCatID=4&SubC
atID=56

Els, thank you SO much for this site. I grew up just a few miles from
there, but in my day the whole area was coal mining, shipbuilding and
heavy industry, plus some farming. As the coal mines and the steel
mills etc closed down, the area went to tourism and leisure to provide
work for the locals. I had heard from family of this museum which was
started after I came to the U.S., but I had no idea it was that good.
I have bookmarked the site, and DH and I will be spending time exploring
it once I get my WiFi sorted out.

Olwyn Mary in New Orleans.
*** Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com ***