Yoohoo, Mommies!

Lucille wrote:



I have yet to see any statistical table that actually says something
specific. Show me!

And I don't want to see something like what I posted that's an abstract. I
want to see a properly done study, by a really good source. Perhaps one of
our universities would be interested in doing a proper study?

If you look upthread a bit, you'll see a link to the Statistics Canada
report. Otherwise, you can search on their site and turn it up that way.
That was a summary report, but they usually have piles of other linked
stuff giving methodology etc. for all their reports.

I don't know what the US equivalent to Statistics Canada is, but there
must be one.

I strongly suspect this issue has been studied at the university level,
as well as by government agencies wanting to know how computer literate
the population is. A visit to a university library and a look through
one of the online guides to the research literature should produce
something - I don't know which would be most relevant to this issue -
something in the social sciences, perhaps - but a university librarian
could certainly point you in the right direction.

Cheryl

Lucille wrote:
I'll tell you what Karen--you come here and blow the storm and tornadoes
we're prepared for away with your hot air and I'll go out and do something
active in the heat, humidity, wind and pouring rain we're having. I'm sure
the cops will love that I'm on the road when people need to get home and get
ready.


Under those circumstances, my parents would be battening down the
hatches, bringing all the plants and yard furniture in from the yard,
putting plywood over the windows, not sitting in front of the computer
arguing that the statistic "22% of seniors are online" means "a vast
majority of seniors are online".

I knew that I had seen statistics somewhere, but didn't offer any exact
numbers, other than "Statistically, over-65s are LEAST likely to have
computers, or want one". You went looking for statistics, found 22%,
and now don't like the number that you yourself threw into the debate
because it supports my statement that the over-65 age group is "LEAST
likely" to be online.

You don't like the statistic, you go argue with the NYT and the
researchers who published it. I loooooove the statistic you provided
because it proves that I'm right. It is absolutely on target with my
personal observations that only 1-in-5 seniors are online. (OK, my
small sample is 20% online, their larger sample is 22%, but most polls
have a 2-3% margin of error.)

Just back down, Lucille, and admit that your own statistic proves your
observations are atypical and my observations are more the norm. Or,
having put the statement out there, can you now not accept any
statistic, including your own, that doesn't agree with what you want it
to be?

--
Karen C - California
Editor/Proofreader www.IntlProofingConsortium.com

Finished 7/27/08 - MLI Christmas Visit

WIP: Oriental Kimono (Janlynn), MLI The Teacher (gift to
the library), Bethany Angel (Marbek)
Retrieved from UFO pile: Marbek's Snow Angel, MLI Farmers Market

CFSfacts -- where we give you the facts and dispel the myths
Myths, with research cites: http://www.aacfs.org/images/pdfs/myths.pdf
Newest research blog: http://journals.aol.com/kmc528/Lifeasweknowit/

Jangchub wrote:

At our local public library we have banks of computers and most of
them are being used by older people. Most of them are women, some
men. Every now and then I bring my computer because they have free
wireless and there are many older people with their laptops, many use
gmail or yahoo accounts to go online for free. I do it so I'm right
there with the books and I prefer to have a real book than to read it
on a screen.

Ours seem to be mostly used by youth and young adults, not that I've
done a proper survey.

I'm baffled by the turn that this debate has taken - the only actual
data (as opposed to anecdotes) that has been posted shows that overall,
computer use by the 65+ age group tends to be in the 20-30% range,
although it is rising. Clearly, some people belong to groups in which
there is a much higher rate of computer usage among that age group
(which is really not surprising, since we are discussing this using
computers, so by definition all of us are computer users, and people
often associate with others of similar interests). Somehow, this has
morphed into some kind of morality test, with all kinds of accusations
and insults being tossed around about people based on their computer
use/non-use.

Of course, this is Usenet, so perhaps I shouldn't have been as baffled
as all this. I do still find it a bit surprising to discover that a
perfectly reasonable statment that some people (or even some elderly
people) don't use computers should be fighting words, even among a bunch
of computer users.

Cheryl

Karen C in California wrote:

The fact is, my parents only have 24 hours in a day, and already had
them filled with other obligations and interests before the internet
came along. They see no reason to go online; it's not worth dropping
some other hobby to make time for. Especially when they've already had
to spend less time on enjoyable things to add all the medical stuff to
their schedule.

I spend a lot of time on my computer (too much, according to dh). But
then, I find it a wonderful tool for research and communication. It
also saves me hours of standing in line at the bank, not to mention
ungodly amounts of postage to keep up with friends all over the world.
I also don't leave home overnight without the laptop. Although I use
Mozilla for most surfing, I keep my aol address because I have had it so
long, and that is how people know me.

I am also a grandmother. I have an 8 yo dgd on a USAF Base in southeast
England, and an 4 yo in Sacramento. Neither they, nor their parents, is
shy about telling me precisely what to send for Christmas and birthday
presents, but I had never heard of webkins until yesterday.

Olwyn Mary in New Orleans.
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

"Jangchub" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 18 Aug 2008 16:01:15 -0400, "Lucille" lzoltynospam@now at
comcast..net wrote:

(...)

In my case my husband died so it's unlikely I'll be driving him anywhere
and
fortunately most of my friends drive so we can share that chore. If your
family gets its jollies by doing what I consider to be everyday chores,
more
power to them but most of the people I know aren't happy with doing the
same
thing now that they have more leisure time and want to do something
different and more stimulating. There's also the fact that if you live
alone it's easy to keep your home neat and clean, unlike when you live
with
an active group.

(...)

My mom is 72 or 73, I forget, but she is a psychiatric social worker,
so is a professional and still works full time. She's been online
since the old days when an Adam was their first computer. Then they
had a Commador, then they moved up and up and now she has the ordinary
computer we all have. She's probably ready to buy a new one as hers
is about five years old and obsolete for many reasons.

I have done everything including stand on my head begging her to stop
working and move down here to TX. While she thinks the idea is very
romantic to live closer to me, she adores her job and will probably
work until she absolutely can't drive any more.

I belong to a garden club and I am one of the younger people there.
Mostly widows ro widowers and all seniors. We have one woman who is in
her 90s and she does her hair, full makeup, and always looks beautiful
when I see her. Spry as anyone else there and she's been online since
Prodigy days, which is about when I was online...about 18 years
ago...I think we used Genie and it was not the Internet, not by a long
shot.

I forgot my point! Better stop since I lost the plot!

v

Don't feel too bad about that. I've been an active part of this mess and I
too have lost the plot. lol

p.s. My first computer was an IBM pc with a 64k hard drive and a 4" floppy
disk. That was way back when there wasn't even an internet for me, I think
around 1990. Wow, that was a long time ago, wasn't it?

Jangchub wrote:

What's wrong with your father that he
sees a specialist twice a week? Is he very sick?



Not so much "very sick" as "when you're 83 and a cancer survivor, we
worry more about things that might turn into very sick".

If he were our age and in excellent health, they'd probably just send
him home with instructions to "keep an eye on it and come back in a
month", but at his age they want to monitor it closely so it doesn't
result in hospitalization.

As for your other question, my folks live near the county line, about a
mile from the beach.

--
Karen C - California
Editor/Proofreader www.IntlProofingConsortium.com

Finished 7/27/08 - MLI Christmas Visit

WIP: Oriental Kimono (Janlynn), MLI The Teacher (gift to
the library), Bethany Angel (Marbek)
Retrieved from UFO pile: Marbek's Snow Angel, MLI Farmers Market

CFSfacts -- where we give you the facts and dispel the myths
Myths, with research cites: http://www.aacfs.org/images/pdfs/myths.pdf
Newest research blog: http://journals.aol.com/kmc528/Lifeasweknowit/

Karen C in California wrote:

Plus, despite the claims that Barbie is passe',

http://www.psfk.com/2008/04/mattel-h...ls-online.html
"Meanwhile, the company’s leading brand continues to struggle. Mattel
said sales of the dolls in the US fell 12 per cent during its first
quarter, offsetting gains in international sales and contributing to a
net loss of $46.6m"

last year's Channel 3
toy drive was covered extensively on TV, and I saw a lot of families
with children (who certainly would know what kids their age play with)
bringing in Barbies and Barbie accessories.

Because they're often on sale and may even be "regifted"
as a way to do something productive with unwanted gifts (whereas
you'd have to pry the Webkinz out of their cold, dead fingers and
few people are likely to stalk the stores trying to find Webkinz
in stock for a toy drive).

But, for all the ubiquitousness that's claimed here, I never heard of
them, and I'm certainly not completely out of touch; I read the
newspaper and several magazines, watch both the local news and CNN,

http://money.CNN.com/magazines/busin...3359/index.htm
"It's a model that can be enormously seductive. Ganz reports that toy
buyers have snapped up more than 2 million Webkinz pets since April 2005
and better than 1 million users have registered online. More than $20
million in retail sales in less than 24 months is considered pretty good
money in the plush-toy business."

surf
the web... none of the business reporters I follow have commented on
the Webkinz craze, it didn't come up in any of the pre-Christmas "hot
toys" reporting last year.

http://www.associatedcontent.com/art...?page=2&cat=46
What Toys Will Top This Years Wish Lists?
"Grade School Girls
Web Kinz"

http://www.kidsturncentral.com/topic.../hottoys07.htm
Hot Toys for 2007
"Webkinz, the charming plush pets from Ganz with their own interactive
web site, should prove popular with both boys and girls."

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/...n/5324799.html
"Webkinz "are very hot now," says Ben Baker, owner of the three
Imagination Toys & Shoes stores in Houston and Webster. So are the
associated cards, clothes, lip gloss and other products.
Both boys and girls play with Webkinz, but they're especially popular
with girls."

http://www.allbusiness.com/retail/re...7303973-1.html
"Amazon.com Top Sellers
1. EyeClops Bionic Eye . Jakks Pacific, Malibu, Calif.
2. Webkinz Reindeer . Ganz, Cheektowaga, N.Y."

I do note that every one of you who's claimed they're the hottest things
since Beanie Babies is along the Eastern Corridor. Not a peep about
them from any of our Western correspondents, which is where I'm going to
be selling the stuff. And I can tell you that people in California have
never given a hoot about what's trendy on the East Coast; we create our
own trends.

http://www.signonSANDIEGO.com/UNIONT...14webkinz.html
"Unleashed last year, the pets didn't morph into a national phenomenon
until a few months ago. Word spreads from playground to playground, a
child's version of a computer virus."

http://www.toydirectory.com/monthly/...bmit1=Sea rch
“It's all about the Webkinz and things that can go on the Web,” said
Donna Anderson, owner of Murphys Village Toy Store in MURPHYS, CALIF.,
who told TDmonthly in June 2008 that Webkinz are her main seller in the
plush category.

Thirty-one percent of the 62 retailers surveyed said Webkinz are their
top-selling plush, with several stores selling more than 100 per month.
7/10/2008

Over 26 percent of 45 retailers surveyed by TDmonthly in early 2008
named Webkinz as their hottest selling item.

http://www.svmoms.com/2008/06/limited-too-and.html
Silicon Valley Moms Blog

http://articles.LATIMES.com/2008/feb...ness/fi-toys13
"Strong demand for Webkinz – a plush animal toy that comes alive online
– helped drive sales of toys tied to the Internet up 9% last year."

http://whois.domaintools.com/webkinz.com
Visitors by City:
US New York 6.9%
US Los Angeles 3.1%
US Boston 3.1%
US Philadelphia 2.7%
US Chicago 2.5%
US Washington 2.4%

-----------

I'm not saying you have to sell Webkinz clothes, but it's very
clear that Webkinz has not passed the west coast by, and I've seen
no evidence in any searches that sales are confined to the
east coast.

Best wishes,
Ericka

"Cheryl P." wrote in message
...
Jangchub wrote:

At our local public library we have banks of computers and most of
them are being used by older people. Most of them are women, some
men. Every now and then I bring my computer because they have free
wireless and there are many older people with their laptops, many use
gmail or yahoo accounts to go online for free. I do it so I'm right
there with the books and I prefer to have a real book than to read it
on a screen.

Ours seem to be mostly used by youth and young adults, not that I've done
a proper survey.

I'm baffled by the turn that this debate has taken - the only actual data
(as opposed to anecdotes) that has been posted shows that overall,
computer use by the 65+ age group tends to be in the 20-30% range,
although it is rising. Clearly, some people belong to groups in which
there is a much higher rate of computer usage among that age group (which
is really not surprising, since we are discussing this using computers, so
by definition all of us are computer users, and people often associate
with others of similar interests). Somehow, this has morphed into some
kind of morality test, with all kinds of accusations and insults being
tossed around about people based on their computer use/non-use.

Of course, this is Usenet, so perhaps I shouldn't have been as baffled as
all this. I do still find it a bit surprising to discover that a perfectly
reasonable statment that some people (or even some elderly people) don't
use computers should be fighting words, even among a bunch of computer
users.

Cheryl

That's why I conceded defeat. It started to sound like gibberish to me.

"Karen C in California" wrote in message
...
Lucille wrote:
I'll tell you what Karen--you come here and blow the storm and tornadoes
we're prepared for away with your hot air and I'll go out and do
something active in the heat, humidity, wind and pouring rain we're
having. I'm sure the cops will love that I'm on the road when people
need to get home and get ready.


Under those circumstances, my parents would be battening down the hatches,
bringing all the plants and yard furniture in from the yard, putting
plywood over the windows, not sitting in front of the computer arguing
that the statistic "22% of seniors are online" means "a vast majority of
seniors are online".

I knew that I had seen statistics somewhere, but didn't offer any exact
numbers, other than "Statistically, over-65s are LEAST likely to have
computers, or want one". You went looking for statistics, found 22%, and
now don't like the number that you yourself threw into the debate because
it supports my statement that the over-65 age group is "LEAST likely" to
be online.

You don't like the statistic, you go argue with the NYT and the
researchers who published it. I loooooove the statistic you provided
because it proves that I'm right. It is absolutely on target with my
personal observations that only 1-in-5 seniors are online. (OK, my small
sample is 20% online, their larger sample is 22%, but most polls have a
2-3% margin of error.)

Just back down, Lucille, and admit that your own statistic proves your
observations are atypical and my observations are more the norm. Or,
having put the statement out there, can you now not accept any statistic,
including your own, that doesn't agree with what you want it to be?

--
Karen C - California
Editor/Proofreader www.IntlProofingConsortium.com

Finished 7/27/08 - MLI Christmas Visit

WIP: Oriental Kimono (Janlynn), MLI The Teacher (gift to
the library), Bethany Angel (Marbek)
Retrieved from UFO pile: Marbek's Snow Angel, MLI Farmers Market

CFSfacts -- where we give you the facts and dispel the myths
Myths, with research cites: http://www.aacfs.org/images/pdfs/myths.pdf
Newest research blog: http://journals.aol.com/kmc528/Lifeasweknowit/


Karen, I already said that article was from 2004 and not really up to date.
I'm tired of arguing with a bullheaded person like you. Give it up. If
you're waiting for me to say I was wrong, don't hold your breath because I'm
still not convinced I am wrong. Nor have I read anything that convinces me
that someone else is right so we seem to be arguing over nothing.

Your mother and father are wonderful and I'm delighted that they're happy
nurturing their plants and eating out. Great for them and even better for
you because you can be assured that their world is fine and you can relax a
little and not worry. They're lucky that they have each other to entertain
themselves and I hope it remains that way forever. If your aunt is happy
going to the VA and that keeps her busy, wonderful for her too.

We all choose who we want to be with and how we want to spend our time.

There's also the fact that most of us we don't post our private lives and
health the way you do and you know nothing about me or how I live.

Jangchub wrote:

I prefer to have a real book than to read it
on a screen.



Amen to that.

I left law school a few weeks before the computer research stuff was up
and running, so I hadn't learned to use it, and had always maintained
that I didn't need it. My last boss undertook to teach me, and I said I
could find it faster manually. He laughed -- there was a flight of
stairs between me and the library -- you're on.

Since the computer with the modem was only turned on when we needed to
do online research, I suggested an equal starting point would be the
steps each of us would take after he said "I need to find...", i.e.,
he'd have to walk over and boot up the computer. OK, later that day, he
found something he needed to look up, and the race was on. I called him
from the library with the exact quote while he was looking at 2468
results and wondering what added search term would narrow it down to a
number he could actually stand to look through.

A few weeks later, he had a question about a Will. Um, the human beings
who did the legal indexes differentiate between the "Will" you probate
and the verb "will" ... the computer program did not. He got
1,234,567,890 results -- essentially every case ever published -- I was
back in 5 minutes, having spent most of that time making photocopies of
the 3 cases that were really what he needed. Could've been back faster
if I'd felt like filling in check-out slips and lugging the 3 books up
the stairs.

Westlaw has its uses, like when you're in a hotel room at midnight and
there's no law library available, but under normal law office working
conditions where the library is right there, I still say the books are
more efficient.

Plus, you can never take a computer/eBook into the bathtub to read!

--
Karen C - California
Editor/Proofreader www.IntlProofingConsortium.com

Finished 7/27/08 - MLI Christmas Visit

WIP: Oriental Kimono (Janlynn), MLI The Teacher (gift to
the library), Bethany Angel (Marbek)
Retrieved from UFO pile: Marbek's Snow Angel, MLI Farmers Market

CFSfacts -- where we give you the facts and dispel the myths
Myths, with research cites: http://www.aacfs.org/images/pdfs/myths.pdf
Newest research blog: http://journals.aol.com/kmc528/Lifeasweknowit/