About rolling mills.....

In message , HoyoD
writes

As to my "rude" comments toward Abrasha, I guess he isn't the only one
allowed to be a little rude, eh? You say he is blunt, I say he is downright
insulting. Yes, I am a little sensitive to someone who consistently talks
down to whoever he is addressing and usually with a good deal of venom. I
have no time for such people, regardless of their "wisdom". A truly wise
person knows how to communicate without being offensive.

Very off topic but something I find a little interesting. A long time
ago Peter I sent a post which mildly asked if a poster was actually a
man of the cloth as you suggested you saw the need to email me and ask
me to change the post.

The ground rules do seem to have changed a little particularly with
regard to the standard of Abrasha's posts.
--
Malcolm Kane

On Sun, 02 Nov 2003 09:28:07 -0800, in rec.crafts.jewelry Malcolm Kane
wrote:


The ground rules do seem to have changed a little particularly with
regard to the standard of Abrasha's posts.

I do not treat Abrasha, or his posts, any differently from those of anyone else.
It's possible that I've lightened up on everyone the past couple years.

I will tell you that since having the opportunity to meet Abrasha in person and
get to know him a bit, my opinions of the man have changed 180 degrees. I know
him to be a rather nice fellow, polite and interesting to talk to in person, not
to mention a craftsperson and artist for whom I have a great deal of respect.
In all probability, this has changed the way I comment upon his online
personality, which obviously does not always give this same impression.

However, everyone, please understand that I don't cut Abrasha any special favors
or allowances. His posts are judged by the same standards as any of yours, with
regards to what makes it into the group.

For those feeling differently, please try to remember the last time I rejected
ANY of your posts. It's been quite some time since I had to reject any of
Abrasha's posts, as he's been more careful to keep his posts within the group's
charter guidelines. And even longer since I ever had to suggest any of you
change a post, or had to reject one from any of the rest of you, as least so far
as I remember. So please don't accuse me of holding Abrasha to different
standards than you. I don't.

Please remember, again, that the group charter does not prohibit rudeness or
bluntness or nastiness. It prohibits direct personal attacks (flame wars and
the like). You can post all you wish attacking the ideas a poster writes about,
especially so long as they remain on topic for a jewelry crafts group. What is
prohibited is attacking the poster of such ideas hem or herself. So you can
call an idea or practice, or a postings' statements, idiotic. But don't call
the poster him/herself an idiot. It's a fine line, but I hope, a clear one.

Case in point. In this thread, my own recent reply suggesting courses of action
was probably poorly thought out, and driven mostly by past frustrations with
tightwad business owners expecting fine craftsmanship and hard work and high
productivity from craftspeople whom he/she would not supply with proper
materials or tools. My suggestions were probably not practical, or
reasonable. (but they felt good to write and fantasize about :-) )

NE333RO took me to task, last night, on that post, and rightly so. He/she (I
don't know which) pretty much slammed my ideas as being idiotic and suggesting
actions which might be taken as criminal, or at least grounds for termination.
Well, I don't know if it's quite that bad, but still, the comments were valid.

I had no reason to feel I should not approve and post that message, even if the
post attacked my statements. It's clearly on topic, and appropriate to the
group. If NE333RO's post had, instead, gone off the deep end calling me an
idiot and brainless fool who didn't deserve to sit at a keyboard, then I'd have
rejected the posting as violating the charter's guidelines.

The same standards apply to any posts sent to this group, from anyone. Please
understand that sometimes these are "judgement calls". Some posts may be
borderline, and in those cases, I just have to decide. Usually it's not a long
and agonizing decision. I just make a choice, and post the message or reject
it. In the long run, even if the "line" may seem fuzzy, or slightly
inconsistant, I hope it's steady enough. Please continue to call to my
attention any seeming inconsistancies you see, if you feel I'm erring in the way
I make these choices. I'm just one man, as prone to error, fatigue, naivite,
and the whole array of potential causes for error as anyone. And please know
that I don't view this group as "mine". It's yours, public domain, etc. I
just do the job here that you, or at least your predecessors, asked me to do.
I'm certainly willing to change these standards at any time the group as a whole
seems to feel I'm not doing it correctly.

I'll admit to one area where things get very fuzzy sometimes, and that's the
problem with advertisements. What constitutes advertising, and what does not,
and how people can sneak in ads in allowable ways, and that sort of thing, gets
tricky to judge. The bottom line is that this group is not intended as an
advertising forum, and the sense I get is that few readers have much interest in
seeing ads, so I try to keep out the blantant ones. But again, I'm just one
guy, doing this in spare time, so I cannot always take extensive measures to
check out a poster, or a web site, to verify things like whether a poster
suggesting a site is in fact associated with that site. Cut me a bit of slack
on this, please. I do the best i can, and trust that what you don't see in this
group is, at least, the vast bulk of the spam, viruses, off topic garbage, and
clearly advertising posts that don't belong here. If a few ads pop in now and
then, they may be mistakes, or they may simply be ones that, for whatever
caprecious reason, I though interesting enough to allow.

cheers

Peter Rowe
moderator
rec.crafts.jewelry

Take a look here, (search for 'rolling mill') they have 15 in stock
(at the time of typing this), and they look pretty good for the $175
that they're asking. (Disc: I have no idea if these are quality
products or not)

They are not. You don't get a good new rolling mill for $175 You get what you
pay for.

If you want a good rolling mill check out this page. It's a Dinkel, one of the
best made anywhere. http://www.j-schmalz.de/English/Mach...machinery.html

This discussion is beginning to remind me of what a teacher once said to me. "I
don't buy cheap tools. I can't afford them, they are too expensive."

Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com

Another place to check out a good rolling mill is:
http://www.fischer-pforzheim.de/

In the left hand frame, click on the second arrow from the top "Werkzeuge=
,
Zubeh=F6r".
Then, in the right hand frame, click on the arrow in the top right hand s=
ide,
"Seite 2"

Now that's a good rolling mill!

Now, if you want cheap and bad, go he
http://www.ottofrei.com/store/custom...=3D61&cat=3D3=
17&page=3D1

I'm sure anyone can see the difference in quality, even from these rather=
small
images.

Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com

The comment in NE's post that a rolling mill is essentially a luxury
item (for presumably a jeweller) is a surprising comment and did get up
my nose!! .
Certainly would be for someone thats just interested in stringing beads
on wire , but for a serious metal worker?
I disagree with NE entirely.
Tools are the means of interpreting our medium, so with the best and
most versatile tools our range of work and/or skill is greatly widened.
Assuming you have the talent to use them of course!!.
My first mill was purchased to enable me to recycle my scrap material on
account of the excessive value added tax applicable here in the uk. The
mill paid for itself within 6 months. It also enabled me to develop many
new products.
To name just one, I was developing a range of torques reflecting the
iron age, I was at an exhibition where an iron smith was forging 6in
round wire nails into spoons., while people waited.
I had my mill with me and had some of these nails from him. I rolled
them progressively smaller in the square sections of the mill, heated
them with the torch, whilst twisting the now square section first 180
deg to the left then the same to the right overall the length..
Within an couple of hours I had half a dozen iron torques of a cirgular
design fire oxidised and highlighted. they all sold over the next 3
days.
With out the mill these wouldnt have been possible in that time frame.
you just cannot have enough good tools. Im continuing to collect them
even if I havnt an immediate use for them.

In message , Peter W. Rowe
writes
On Sun, 02 Nov 2003 09:28:07 -0800, in rec.crafts.jewelry Malcolm Kane
wrote:


The ground rules do seem to have changed a little particularly with
regard to the standard of Abrasha's posts.

I do not treat Abrasha, or his posts, any differently from those of
anyone else.
It's possible that I've lightened up on everyone the past couple years.


Sorry Peter I was not trying to suggest you applied different rules to
different people. Merely stating a simple point that the type of post
Abrasha makes seems to be acceptable now not just to you but to the
group (majority of) which seems to be a change from a couple of years or
so ago.

You do a job I personally wouldn't want and doubt if I could do and in
my opinion you do it well. Again I was not trying to suggest double
standards. If you read it as such I am sorry.
--
Malcolm Kane

"Abrasha" wrote in message
...

Take a look here, (search for 'rolling mill') they have 15 in
stock
(at the time of typing this), and they look pretty good for the
$175
that they're asking. (Disc: I have no idea if these are quality
products or not)

They are not. You don't get a good new rolling mill for $175 You
get what you
pay for.

Ok, I know that. But in Chris' case, if it actually does the job
required for 3-5 years+ (instead of 20/30 years+), then it will have
served its purpose and made a bit of profit at that price too. I would
take that risk in his case. Make the money, then buy the quality.

As a side-note, my little 'MiniMill' is now 18 years old, used
almost daily for sheet, 'D', and square, and is no different to the
day I bought it, and I don't consider it being a quality mill.

Those mills on that page that I suggested, might even last longer
than your quality version, but you'll never know that if you don't
hear it from someone or try one...


If you want a good rolling mill check out this page. It's a Dinkel,
one of the
best made anywhere.
http://www.j-schmalz.de/English/Mach...machinery.html

Could be too expensive for what he needs?


This discussion is beginning to remind me of what a teacher once
said to me. "I
don't buy cheap tools. I can't afford them, they are too
expensive."

Which also falls into line with the saying "A good worker never
blames his tools", (or similar), i.e. make do with what you can afford
and get your hands on at the time - at the end of the day, it's down
to the design that you want people to wear, *whatever*
method/machinery/tools used.

-SP-



Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com

The comment in NE's post that a rolling mill is essentially a luxury
item (for presumably a jeweller) is a surprising comment and did get up
my nose!! .

My point was, there is very little that is done on a daily basis, that
can't be done without a rolling mill. Is a mill more cost/time effective? Of
course. Could most jobs that are done using a rolling mill be done using other
tools? Yes. Obviously the original poster has been doing without.

I had my mill with me and had some of these nails from him. I rolled
them progressively smaller in the square sections of the mill, heated
them with the torch, whilst twisting the now square section first 180
deg to the left then the same to the right overall the length..

Which part of that could not have been done with a file, a hammer, a torch,
and a vise? Maybe not as fast or as cost effective, but I didn't read anything
there I couldn't have duplicated without a rolling mill.
Look, I'm not saying it wouldn't be a great addition to any shop. I'm
saying with the work done in the majority of shops, you could work around the
lack of one. Particularly if the acquisition of one gets you canned.

I do not treat Abrasha, or his posts, any differently from those of anyone
else.
It's possible that I've lightened up on everyone the past couple years.

You may not realize it, but you DO have a different standard for him than
the rest of us. Now personally, I have no problem with his style, just so long
as it is allowed universally. I do have a problem with the double standard.

I will tell you that since having the opportunity to meet Abrasha in person
and
get to know him a bit, my opinions of the man have changed 180 degrees. I
know
him to be a rather nice fellow, polite and interesting to talk to in person,
not
to mention a craftsperson and artist for whom I have a great deal of respect.
In all probability, this has changed the way I comment upon his online
personality, which obviously does not always give this same impression.

Thus the reason for your blind spot. You see his abrasive manor as a
misunderstanding on our part, or a language barrier problem on his part. Or you
pass it off as "blunt" rather than purposely insulting. Read his posts in
rec.crafts.metalworking sometime to break yourself of that illusion.

However, everyone, please understand that I don't cut Abrasha any special
favors
or allowances. His posts are judged by the same standards as any of yours,
with
regards to what makes it into the group.

Oh, I don't think you do it consciously, but he gets away with any number
of things the rest of us know we can't. His "blunt" posts get defended, ours
get chastised. The beginning of your first post to this subject line was a good
example. Following this post are some examples of allowed posts I dug up with
15 minutes or so of archive research. Even allowing I didn't always include
full posts, they are nothing I can call "blunt."

For those feeling differently, please try to remember the last time I
rejected
ANY of your posts.

After getting my hand slapped a few times while referring to some of
Abrashas posts (I don't seem to feel the need with anyone elses), I finally
gave up. Thus the lack of rejected posts. I do notice how often you feel the
need to jump to his defense.
Now that I know the trick to not being rejected it should be interesting. I
can insult everything he says, everything he does, and everything he stands
for, just so long as I don't use "you" in the sentence. Outstanding.

It's been quite some time since I had to reject any of
Abrasha's posts, as he's been more careful to keep his posts within the
group's
charter guidelines. And even longer since I ever had to suggest any of you
change a post, or had to reject one from any of the rest of you, as least so
far
as I remember. So please don't accuse me of holding Abrasha to different
standards than you. I don't.

That would be the third time you said that this post.

Please remember, again, that the group charter does not prohibit rudeness or
bluntness or nastiness. It prohibits direct personal attacks (flame wars and
the like).

Your definition of personal attacks is very liberal when Abrasha is
involved.

You can post all you wish attacking the ideas a poster writes
about,
especially so long as they remain on topic for a jewelry crafts group. What
is
prohibited is attacking the poster of such ideas hem or herself. So you can
call an idea or practice, or a postings' statements, idiotic. But don't call
the poster him/herself an idiot. It's a fine line, but I hope, a clear one.

I guess if you are going to follow the letter of the law rather than the
spirit, I can see how *some* of his posts have been allowed. With others, I
still don't see the line.

Case in point. In this thread, my own recent reply suggesting courses of
action
was probably poorly thought out, and driven mostly by past frustrations with
tightwad business owners expecting fine craftsmanship and hard work and high
productivity from craftspeople whom he/she would not supply with proper
materials or tools. My suggestions were probably not practical, or
reasonable. (but they felt good to write and fantasize about :-) )

And while I agreed in spirit, in the real world they would very
infrequently be viable courses of action. Any employee with a boss liberal
enough to let you get away with something like that, would probably not have
been in that position in the first place.

NE333RO took me to task, last night, on that post, and rightly so. He/she (I
don't know which)

He.

pretty much slammed my ideas as being idiotic and
suggesting
actions which might be taken as criminal, or at least grounds for
termination.

I didn't slam your ideas, I was "blunt". ) I very seldom call someones
ideas idiotic, even when I think they are. I feel that by doing that I am by
extension calling them idiotic. In this case I would have used
um.........uninformed or possibly sheltered. I worked for this bosses twin, I
know what the poster is fighting against.

Well, I don't know if it's quite that bad, but still, the comments were
valid.

It would be *very* easy to get arrested for taking jewelry out of your
bosses case, without telling him, and sell it for scrap to finance your
personal pet project. Not to mention the breach of trust that would occur after
you sold off his property to financh something he already nixed. I don't know
how an employer could justify keeping you as an employee after that.

I had no reason to feel I should not approve and post that message, even if
the
post attacked my statements. It's clearly on topic, and appropriate to the
group. If NE333RO's post had, instead, gone off the deep end calling me an
idiot and brainless fool who didn't deserve to sit at a keyboard, then I'd
have
rejected the posting as violating the charter's guidelines.

I don't see how it could even be in the realm of a rejected message. I
didn't attack you or your really even your statements. I disagreed and refuted
them, I even bluntly pointed out the possible concequences of taking those
actions, but I don't even see how it could be an example of a post that was
close to rejection. Maybe thats just MY blind spot showing however.
snip

Please continue to call to my
attention any seeming inconsistancies you see, if you feel I'm erring in the
way
I make these choices.

I promise to do my best, to do my duty..............oh, you know the rest
;o)

I'll admit to one area where things get very fuzzy sometimes, and that's the
problem with advertisements.

I seldom have a problem with that. I realize they are going to sneek some
by you and am constantly amazed you catch as many as you do. I also realize
that some of them are judgement calls. When I respond negativly to one of those
it's usually to let the advertizer know that we know it slipped by, and they
aren't putting anything over on us.

Abrashaisms:

4/8/03

CharlieM wrote:


Take care all, and have a great day!!!!!
CharlieM


Thanks, but I have made other arrangements already.

You really should have your head looked at though. You're using way too many
exclamation marks, for it to be healthy.

Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com


9/4/97
Peter W. Rowe wrote:

Diana

Princess of Wales
1961-1997

A remarkable and unique person, without whom,
our world will now be a lesser place for all.


HuH?!?

Last time I checked, this newsgroup was called rec.crafts.jewelry.

Besides?

Waddaya expect when you drive 110 mph in a 30 mph zone with a drunk at the
wheel?

A poster in another newsgroup expressed his sentiments about this as follows:

Out, Out, OUT!
Get the **** out of my newsgroup, you degenerate, swizzledicked
yaudswivers! No one gives a flying **** at a waddling wallaby what
happened to some blonde bint whose primary claim to fame was doinking
an in-bred future monarch of a washed-up nation on the back porch of
history.
**** off, all of you.


Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com

11/1/01

I feel sorry for you for making such an utterly empty and stupid statement.
"Influenced by nothing"! I do not know how old you are but you have spent at
least 18 years of your young life in schools and you have the ignorance to say
that you are "influenced by nothing"? Woman, go back to school, read books,
watch movies, read newspapers, walk on the street, get laid, watch TV, go to a
museum, read the newspaper, talk with children, talk with old people.
"INFLUENCED BY NOTHING" You ignorant pathetic fool! And you have the
unmitigated audacity to call yourself a teacher? You should be ashamned of
yourself.

After reading the stupidity that you have written me, I take you and your
colleagues (if they indeed also claim to have been "influenced by nothing")
even
less seriously now.

3/11/98

David Mayer wrote:

I need information about "DECOREM" or some photoceramic system.
Please, I can not find it. Email- me now!!!
David


Hhhmmmmm, methinks we have another one here, who is a few exclamation
points short of a full deck.

Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com

1/22/97

Go **** yourself, you pathetic asshole. Your continuous and nauseating ads in
rec.crafts.jewelry out disgusting and useless. Do you really thin that you are
going to
get business from them?

Drop dead!

3/6/98

Blow it out your ear fatso.

4/4/03

Oh great, here we go again. Another opinion buy some gentle soul jackass who
hasn't been around usenet very long. Get over it, and just put me in a kill
file already.

Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com

5/27/99

And who do you think keeps you in business? It ain't the Pope and
Mother
Theresa.

Go sit on a mountain top and meditate, instead of going to your health
club on 5th Ave. and giving meetings while on the cell phone. You
sanctimoneous .....

No Abrasha, down, down boy. I said, in your cage ....... NOW!

Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com

5/27/99

Where do you think your diamonds come from, and your gold, and your
rubies and your every other piece of precious material you make your
jewelry with. Are you really that naive or do you have your head in a
place where the sun don't shine?

I am beginning to find it amusing now that I caught all that flak
several weeks ago when I posted the remark that I was beginning to
develop a profound dislike of you. I feel vindicated.

Abrasha
http://www.abrasha

10/31/98

Alas,

Ron you were right. We ARE dealing with a humorless goodie two shoes
twit here. Better send this zephead some of your leftover mushrooms, but
I'm afraid that it won't help much. This one is a goner.

Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com

On Sun, 02 Nov 2003 17:35:34 -0800, in rec.crafts.jewelry
(NE333RO) wrote:

You may not realize it, but you DO have a different standard for him than
the rest of us. Now personally, I have no problem with his style, just so long
as it is allowed universally. I do have a problem with the double standard.


Thus the reason for your blind spot. You see his abrasive manor as a
misunderstanding on our part, or a language barrier problem on his part. Or you
pass it off as "blunt" rather than purposely insulting. Read his posts in
rec.crafts.metalworking sometime to break yourself of that illusion.

Hey. I enjoy my illusions :-)

Seriously, though, I work rather hard sometimes to try and find the good side in
people and their posts. Its one of the few ways I have to personally manage to
try and keep reasonably stress free with this moderation stuff. If I allowed
myself to get really ticked off at what people say to each other, or to me, I'd
have quit some time ago. And had I done that, unless one of you others had
picked up the mantle and become moderator (to date, nobody has ever even hinted
that they'd be willing to help co-moderate the group, much less become the lead
moderator, when I asked) then the group would now not exist. There's no easy
way to just turn off moderation, without a new, formal vote on the procedure,
much as was done when the moderation scheme was instituted.

I know quite well that Abrasha is quite capable of pushing just about every
sensative button anyone has, as well as really ticking off other posters, if he
wishes. You'll note that in this group, his behavior has been more temperate
than in unmoderated groups. That was what I was talking about.

Also, Perhaps it will help if I explain that for me, there are two hats I wear
in this group. One is as the moderator. in that role, I administer the group,
and decide which posts to accept or reject.

The other one, is just me. If I write a defense of something Abrasha says, or
his posting manner, or my personal opinion of him, that's my personal opinion.
It has nothing to do with "official" group policies.

The fact of the matter is that his are almost the only posts I've ever had to
reject, with only a very few exceptions in only a couple arguments that got out
of hand, and those were not recent at all. In those, several people (and I have
no idea at this point who the others are, as I only keep back copies of posts
for a few months) had posts rejected, including Abrasha.

The notion that I have chastised people when I've not done so to Abrasha is
simply wrong. But it may be perhaps because I usually make such comments in
email, not in newsgroup posts. If you, NE333RO, remember some such comments
from me, I suspect that you'll find, if you look back, that they may well have
been in email, if indeed they went to the level of talking about rejecting your
posts. The same is true of such comments now and then sent to Abrasha. You
folks don't see them, only the emails I've sent to you. Perhaps this creates
the impression that it's one sided.

But the bottom line is not whether I have a double standard in treating Abrasha
versus other folks, because I don't. What I DO have is two standards in terms
of how I treat posts as the moderator, and my personal opinions of posts I
approve. I don't have to like a posting to approve it. I just have to be able
to justify it's being sufficiently well within the limits set forth by the
charter. After that, once it's approved, my opinions are my own, and subject
to the same personal preferences any of you are entitled to. Is that a double
standard? I suppose in a manner. But it should not affect you. Your posts
have to meet the same standards, no more, no less, as Abrashas, my own, or
anyone elses. If I criticize someones post in a reply post, that's no
different from anything any of you might also reply. It's me, wearing my own
hat. Not usually that of the moderator, unless I'm clearly talking about
moderation issues.

Nevertheless, I DO understand that some of you may feel I've not been even
handed. I hear you. I'll try, in future, to more certain that I'm not playing
favorites.

Oh, and one last comment. NE333RO, you went to some pains in your most recent
posting to quote a bunch of Abrashas posts which you felt were cases in point
where I cut him some slack.

I'd point out that what I stated was that he's been more reasonable in recent
postings, than he was years ago. So I sorta object to a number of your quotes,
from as much as six years ago. (97, the year I first started moderating the
group...) No fair, sir. Besides, if you actually read your own quotes, you'll
see exactly what I mean about Mr. A's recent postings in the last year or two,
being gentler than he used to be. Heck, your first quote, a reply to Charlie,
was a reference to a joke. Or didn't you realize that? Charlie certainly knew
it...

And, then, what's your point with those quotes? Those are posts some of which
obviously were questionable. They may have been approved for reasons you might
question, but the flip side of this double standards issue would be if you could
also show me similar posts of yours, or of anyone elses, which I'd NOT approved.
Can you? You've demonstrated only that perhaps I've allowed some posts of
Abrashas which I maybe should not have. A double standard would exist only if
I've rejected posts of yours which were no worse.

When people post things to this group, my normal bias is to assume they will be
acceptable. Posts which cross a line into questionable territory are not
automatically rejected either. In some cases, they may be replies to an earlier
posting (by longtime usenet traditions, reply posts are slightly more leniently
judged than initial postings, in order to foster conversation. Usually this
applies mostly to advertising issues, but it can apply elsewhere as well), or
they may, in spite of unfortunate language, make good enough points to be worth
letting in. I make no claims to be infalliable in this regard. I'd much prefer
to allow everthing, rejecting only the obviously off topic stuff. I generally
have to be able to find little if any redeeming intellegence in a posting before
I'll reject it these days. A few years back, I think perhaps I was trying to be
a little stricter, and in general, that just gets me in trouble.

People in real life have disagreements. Sometimes they yell and scream.
Nothing wrong with that, especially in a newsgroup where weapons and physical
harm cannot ensue. My job is to try and keep at least a modest lid on things,
so they don't get TOO out of hand. This is not a clearly defined thing to
decide. I'm not a trained psychologist, politician, sociologist, or any of that
stuff. I'm just another jeweler, like many of you. And it gets confusing too,
just how I should do this to best please the group. Some of you never want to
see an even faintly aggressive word. Others of you then say the group is boring
without some allowance for disagreements. What am I to do with this? My only
real choice is to use what little common sense I can muster, on a post by post
basis, and trust that this will be good enough. Most of you are adults. If,
at this point, you cannot tolerate a little discord on your screens now and
then, perhaps it's time to learn. I'll promise to try and keep most of the
ugly stuff out, as best I can. After that, what goes in the group is more up to
what you guys send, than it is to me.

And that's about enough typing for one evening. Fingers are getting tired
(grin)

Peter