NYCO Gansey

This is NOT an Aran. It has no cables, no bobbles, no traveling stitches;
just good tight Lizard Lattice stitch, which goes very fast. On the other
hand, it is so tight that it is windproof and suitable to wear fishing.
Aaron

"Shillelagh" wrote in message
...

"Katherine" wrote in message
oups.com...

When I used to knit them, Aaron, it would take me about six weeks to
knit an adult size. I would knit while my son was napping and for a
couple
of hours after he went to bed.

Wow. The one and only Aran I've ever done took me months to complete,
even
with me making sure to do some of it everyday. The sweater turned out
very
well and I'm very proud of it. I made it as a Christmas gift for my DIL
and
she loves it too.

Shelagh

Yep! Every fleet had its own pattern that was suited to the local climate
and every village had local variations. Thus, any seaman could tell what
parish a body was from by the pattern. Everyone in a parish would know the
current gansey of everyone else in that parish. Thus, every body could be
identified.

In my case they will know its "Aaron" by the mistakes in my knitting.

A.
"Ophelia" wrote in message
...

wrote in message
. net...
With all due respect Mirjam, you have not thought this through!

A warm gansey was the single most valuable thing a fisherman's family
could
own! Remember that the stitch patterns provided warmth and ventilation.
If
a fisherman did not have a well knit gansey - how would he stay warm
while
he was out on the water? Without a GOOD gansey, he would not be able to
go
out fishing and his family would starve, or he would die of exposure
while
fishing and his family would then starve. If a fisherman's wife wanted
to
eat, she knit a good gansey for her fisherman (and sons). If a woman
wanted
to keep her man alive, she knit him a fine gansey. She patched it when
it
was torn, and she reknit when it was worn, because it was essential to
the
family. For a fisherman's family, NOTHING was more important.

And when it came to the end in the event of tragedy at sea, the fisherman
was identified by the pattern on his Guernsay which was peculiar to his
own
family

Ophelia
Scotland

And you have given birth to a child , while you had to tend this fire
and cook like you did , and how many children clung to your skirt ?
The woman could also do more because they worked together, MIL and non
married sisters would/could lend a hand,,, STILL , YOU CAN`T measure
your time and your abilty and decide that this is the measure for
those woman,,,
mirjam


With all due respect Mirjam, you have not thought this through!

A warm gansey was the single most valuable thing a fisherman's family could
own! Remember that the stitch patterns provided warmth and ventilation. If
a fisherman did not have a well knit gansey - how would he stay warm while
he was out on the water? Without a GOOD gansey, he would not be able to go
out fishing and his family would starve, or he would die of exposure while
fishing and his family would then starve. If a fisherman's wife wanted to
eat, she knit a good gansey for her fisherman (and sons). If a woman wanted
to keep her man alive, she knit him a fine gansey. She patched it when it
was torn, and she reknit when it was worn, because it was essential to the
family. For a fisherman's family, NOTHING was more important.

A man with a gansey could go out on his own boat, or he could work shares
with another fisherman that had a boat or he could sign on to work on a
schooner. A fisherman could borrow a fish net, or a fish hook, but he had
to have his own gansey. Without a gansey, he could not fish. If he could
not fish, he could not feed his family.

Ganseys were a major capital asset of the fishing industry, but history has
not recognized the huge value of that asset. Knitting ganseys was a
terrible labor that has not been recognized by history. And, it was piled
on the other terrible labors that the women bore. Women have not been given
the credit that they deserved.

Without finely knit wool ganseys, Europe would not have had fish, at least
not cod and herring. Europe would have starved. That is a bit of economics
that has been overlooked.

----------------------------------
I have lived in situations without electricity or running water, or paved
roads. I do know what it is like to cook over an open fire, and what a
nasty job it is to try and clean afterwards when soap is precious. Never the
less, women living in those conditions (and worse), knit (millions??) of
fine ganseys for fishermen. In addition to the chores that you mention,
those women sold the catch, tended flocks and gardens, mended nets, made
other clothes for the family by hand, & etc.. . . It is an accomplishment
that should rank with the building of the Pyramids of Egypt, and yet history
ignores it.
----------------------------------
I admit that I love to knit in our clear California sunshine. (In part, we
choose to live in Pleasant Hill because of its fine quality of light.) But
today is a foggy mist, and I must knit anyway.

Aaron

"Mirjam Bruck-Cohen" wrote in message
...
When calculating Working schedules and trying to use this measure to
former times , one should remember that people had no cars [ thus
walking time was longer, and no all knew how to knit while walkig] ,
No phones , no washing machines , dish washers , they used out houses,
no paper trowels , etc,,, all these added HOURS of work , that could
NOT used for knitting. also they tended sick kids , elder relatives ,
etc,, All THEHE has to be taken into account when trying to decided if
people could or could not produce something in the same time a
contemporary person does it ,, ps and don`t forget that light wasn`t
as good as your`s.
mirjam

On Feb 19, 5:13 pm, wrote:
New Years day I cast on for a traditional Cornish Seaman's gansey using
"Fisherman's Wool" (930 yd/lb.) at a gauge of 8+ spi. I have made a
point of
only working on it a few hours per day as I help my wife watch movies
in the
evening. (Bad movies result in the most progress. Good movies result
in
errors that must be frogged, great films result in no knitting what so
ever.)

Now, I am down to the cuffs, and I expect to finish it to wear to the
Stitches event next weekend.

Anyway, the sleeves had turned into a long, hard slog. Evening after
evening, I did not seem to make much progress. (There are about as
many
stitches in the sleeves as in an entire sweater knit at 5 spi.) I
stopped,
and polished my steel needles, and I was back to full speed. I love
freshly
polished steel needles! Other needles may be more pleasant to touch
and
feel, but nothing is surer than cold steel.

This also confirms my calculation that a traditional knitter could make
a
fisherman's gansey in a couple of months by working on the gansey only
2 or
3 hours a day. This would leave time for childcare and other household
duties. Thus, a fisherman's wife could knit new ganseys for her
husband and
a couple of sons every year. (Fisherman's Wool knits much slower than
the
more tightly spun wassit that they used.) If I had been using a tight
spun
gansey yarn, the thing would be long done!

We have rain coming towards the end of the week, so I am going to block
it
to shape by wearing it as I do my spring garden chores in the rain.

When I used to knit them, Aaron, it would take me about six weeks to
knit
an adult size. I would knit while my son was napping and for a couple
of hours
after he went to bed.

HIgs,
Katherine

I can measure and say that history does not give all those women due credit.

Are you arguing that those women have gotten full credit? No! You are saying
the same thing that I am saying, which is; that they worked very hard. You
just think that it took more than 120 hours to produce a gansey or that they
could not find 20 hours a week to work on a project that was vital to the
family's welfare.

I have had to figure each step out for myself. They learned more than I
know, as children. However fast I knit, I am sure that many fish wives knit
much faster. And they knew tricks to speed their knitting. For example,
when I started knitting sleeves from the shoulder down, I wasted a lot time
turning the gansey around and around. Then, I learned to fold the body of
the gansey up into a small package and stitch it together with a bit of
waste yarn. Much easier to turn and much faster. But, that is the kind of
thing those girls would have learned as small children. That makes me sure
that they knew many ways to work faster than I do.

Since a gansey would last a year or more, I am sure that it often took a
year or more to knit the new gansey. However, that is balanced by the
"herring girls" that could knit one in 8 to 10 days depending on the
pattern.

Aaron


"Mirjam Bruck-Cohen" wrote in message
...
And you have given birth to a child , while you had to tend this fire
and cook like you did , and how many children clung to your skirt ?
The woman could also do more because they worked together, MIL and non
married sisters would/could lend a hand,,, STILL , YOU CAN`T measure
your time and your abilty and decide that this is the measure for
those woman,,,
mirjam


With all due respect Mirjam, you have not thought this through!

A warm gansey was the single most valuable thing a fisherman's family
could
own! Remember that the stitch patterns provided warmth and ventilation.
If
a fisherman did not have a well knit gansey - how would he stay warm
while
he was out on the water? Without a GOOD gansey, he would not be able to
go
out fishing and his family would starve, or he would die of exposure
while
fishing and his family would then starve. If a fisherman's wife wanted to
eat, she knit a good gansey for her fisherman (and sons). If a woman
wanted
to keep her man alive, she knit him a fine gansey. She patched it when
it
was torn, and she reknit when it was worn, because it was essential to
the
family. For a fisherman's family, NOTHING was more important.

A man with a gansey could go out on his own boat, or he could work shares
with another fisherman that had a boat or he could sign on to work on a
schooner. A fisherman could borrow a fish net, or a fish hook, but he
had
to have his own gansey. Without a gansey, he could not fish. If he
could
not fish, he could not feed his family.

Ganseys were a major capital asset of the fishing industry, but history
has
not recognized the huge value of that asset. Knitting ganseys was a
terrible labor that has not been recognized by history. And, it was
piled
on the other terrible labors that the women bore. Women have not been
given
the credit that they deserved.

Without finely knit wool ganseys, Europe would not have had fish, at
least
not cod and herring. Europe would have starved. That is a bit of
economics
that has been overlooked.

----------------------------------
I have lived in situations without electricity or running water, or paved
roads. I do know what it is like to cook over an open fire, and what a
nasty job it is to try and clean afterwards when soap is precious. Never
the
less, women living in those conditions (and worse), knit (millions??) of
fine ganseys for fishermen. In addition to the chores that you mention,
those women sold the catch, tended flocks and gardens, mended nets, made
other clothes for the family by hand, & etc.. . . It is an
accomplishment
that should rank with the building of the Pyramids of Egypt, and yet
history
ignores it.
----------------------------------
I admit that I love to knit in our clear California sunshine. (In part,
we
choose to live in Pleasant Hill because of its fine quality of light.)
But
today is a foggy mist, and I must knit anyway.

Aaron

"Mirjam Bruck-Cohen" wrote in message
...
When calculating Working schedules and trying to use this measure to
former times , one should remember that people had no cars [ thus
walking time was longer, and no all knew how to knit while walkig] ,
No phones , no washing machines , dish washers , they used out houses,
no paper trowels , etc,,, all these added HOURS of work , that could
NOT used for knitting. also they tended sick kids , elder relatives ,
etc,, All THEHE has to be taken into account when trying to decided if
people could or could not produce something in the same time a
contemporary person does it ,, ps and don`t forget that light wasn`t
as good as your`s.
mirjam

On Feb 19, 5:13 pm, wrote:
New Years day I cast on for a traditional Cornish Seaman's gansey
using
"Fisherman's Wool" (930 yd/lb.) at a gauge of 8+ spi. I have made a
point of
only working on it a few hours per day as I help my wife watch
movies
in the
evening. (Bad movies result in the most progress. Good movies
result
in
errors that must be frogged, great films result in no knitting what
so
ever.)

Now, I am down to the cuffs, and I expect to finish it to wear to
the
Stitches event next weekend.

Anyway, the sleeves had turned into a long, hard slog. Evening after
evening, I did not seem to make much progress. (There are about as
many
stitches in the sleeves as in an entire sweater knit at 5 spi.) I
stopped,
and polished my steel needles, and I was back to full speed. I love
freshly
polished steel needles! Other needles may be more pleasant to touch
and
feel, but nothing is surer than cold steel.

This also confirms my calculation that a traditional knitter could
make
a
fisherman's gansey in a couple of months by working on the gansey
only
2 or
3 hours a day. This would leave time for childcare and other
household
duties. Thus, a fisherman's wife could knit new ganseys for her
husband and
a couple of sons every year. (Fisherman's Wool knits much slower
than
the
more tightly spun wassit that they used.) If I had been using a
tight
spun
gansey yarn, the thing would be long done!

We have rain coming towards the end of the week, so I am going to
block
it
to shape by wearing it as I do my spring garden chores in the rain.

When I used to knit them, Aaron, it would take me about six weeks to
knit
an adult size. I would knit while my son was napping and for a couple
of hours
after he went to bed.

HIgs,
Katherine

I am not ARGUING anything with you ,
I am saying /writing , both from life experience as a woman and as a
person living in a different climate than yours , and having lived in
various different climates, and having lived through various Different
places and times with different levels of having to do manual work,
and housework . THAT YOU , like anybody else , CAN NOT MAKE
ASSUMPTIONS like that,about How many hours women in another time/place
and circumstances, could `find` to knit or do any other chore, unless
you find written evidence to that , Also i declare that using the
term `could find 20 hours` , is not a very complimentary word.

I am going further to say that , being a man , you can`t measure a
woman`s ability to work. All your calculations are done /made on your
own ability , a man who grew up in 20th century, with all the better
food , better health etc,, than those women. Many of whom had
Rheumaticism in an early age, or other illness or bodily problems.
have you tried to work with painful arms and or fingers. Have you
tried to work with a sick coughing child next to you,,,,, Unless you
live in SAME Conditions , like they did, without Any of the
contemporary luxeries , YOU CAN NOT use your measurement of speed as a
FACT , about their lives.
You are not the only person , who does THIS mistake. you remind me of
the male doctor, who couched us [years ago] for labour , and ended his
course with ; "when we want it we can have LOADS of milk to feed our
baby ",,,, the whole group of ladies had the best laugh in years ,,,,
every single one of them reacted like me ... that we would Love to see
him nurse a baby at his `breasts` ....
You also remind me of a student, who came to me , because he couldn`t
proove that `all weaving was done on a Triangular Warp`,,, his
starting point were the Greek and Egyptian drawing where the warp on a
hanging loom was sort of drawn as if all warps met at the middle....
Thus we built a similar loom , i hung up a warp with weights , wove
some wefts and asked to measure EXACTLY the place of each warp and
weight , Than i invited him to coffee and we let it hang in the air...
we discused other matters and after an hour + we went back to the loom
,,, and measured ,,, the weights slowly pulled the warp thread towards
the middle , after 2 more hours he understood it.

The only point i do agreewith you , is about women not getting enough
credit , so what else is new ?????
If you think that by your calculations you give them credit? you ruin
your own Pronounced Goal ,,, by using words as ..."could not find 20
hours".... because this is full of assumptions , if indeed you claim ,
that knitting those sweaters was THE MOST importnat thing, and at the
same time you use this terminology , you pull the rug out from under
your feet. Women, esp in soceities like those , you are trying to
talk about, Don`t find time, they use every moment , to do one two and
sometines 3 chores at the same time. They are in constant moove, from
one chore to the other!!! they do the knitting both out of need , but
also a lot of times as a means to sit down for a while , without
feeling guilty about `sitting`.
You cannot research such craft , by isolating it out of the `normal`
stream of daily life.
We have been at another point of this debate before. I have told you
the same things, you assume to much , and don`t even have the respect
to those people by adding this 2 plain words ;I assume.
mirjam

Mirjam,
I had written, historical evidence and you did not believe it, so I did an
experiment to see if it was plausible.

Let me summarize what we agree on.

1. The life of fisher families was hard.

2. Fishermen required finely knit ganseys to continue their trade.

3. Many of the fishermen's ganseys were knit by their wives or mothers or
sisters.

4. Such knitting was very high quality, and produced an essential capital
good, the value of which was NOT captured in historical documents.

We differ on how long it took for a wife and mother to knit a gansey.

I have found documentation that it was common for the "herring girls", that
migrated up and down the coast helping to process fish catches, to be able
to knit a gansey in a week or two. Many of these herring girls were or
became the wives of fishermen. Thus, many fishermen's wives knit very fast.
They used knitting sheaths to knit much faster and much tighter than anyone
is likely to knit for a sustained period of time with circular or single
pointed needles. (The physics are different!) That is your real point of
your disbelief. Despite all those pictures of knitting sheaths in old
knitting books such as Mary Thomas, you never tried knitting with a knitting
sheath! Why were there so many old knitting sheaths around? Because they
worked!

At this point, I believe the historical documentation is correct and
plausible. I now find it reasonable that wives and mothers often produced
ganseys in 2 months or less. And, a sister or girl friend or professional
knitter could produce a gansey in 2 weeks or less of dedicated, full time
work. Of course, the finer Lincolnshire and Sheringham Guernseys would take
50% longer.

Aaron


"Mirjam Bruck-Cohen" wrote in message
...
I am not ARGUING anything with you ,
I am saying /writing , both from life experience as a woman and as a
person living in a different climate than yours , and having lived in
various different climates, and having lived through various Different
places and times with different levels of having to do manual work,
and housework . THAT YOU , like anybody else , CAN NOT MAKE
ASSUMPTIONS like that,about How many hours women in another time/place
and circumstances, could `find` to knit or do any other chore, unless
you find written evidence to that , Also i declare that using the
term `could find 20 hours` , is not a very complimentary word.

I am going further to say that , being a man , you can`t measure a
woman`s ability to work. All your calculations are done /made on your
own ability , a man who grew up in 20th century, with all the better
food , better health etc,, than those women. Many of whom had
Rheumaticism in an early age, or other illness or bodily problems.
have you tried to work with painful arms and or fingers. Have you
tried to work with a sick coughing child next to you,,,,, Unless you
live in SAME Conditions , like they did, without Any of the
contemporary luxeries , YOU CAN NOT use your measurement of speed as a
FACT , about their lives.
You are not the only person , who does THIS mistake. you remind me of
the male doctor, who couched us [years ago] for labour , and ended his
course with ; "when we want it we can have LOADS of milk to feed our
baby ",,,, the whole group of ladies had the best laugh in years ,,,,
every single one of them reacted like me ... that we would Love to see
him nurse a baby at his `breasts` ....
You also remind me of a student, who came to me , because he couldn`t
proove that `all weaving was done on a Triangular Warp`,,, his
starting point were the Greek and Egyptian drawing where the warp on a
hanging loom was sort of drawn as if all warps met at the middle....
Thus we built a similar loom , i hung up a warp with weights , wove
some wefts and asked to measure EXACTLY the place of each warp and
weight , Than i invited him to coffee and we let it hang in the air...
we discused other matters and after an hour + we went back to the loom
,,, and measured ,,, the weights slowly pulled the warp thread towards
the middle , after 2 more hours he understood it.

The only point i do agreewith you , is about women not getting enough
credit , so what else is new ?????
If you think that by your calculations you give them credit? you ruin
your own Pronounced Goal ,,, by using words as ..."could not find 20
hours".... because this is full of assumptions , if indeed you claim ,
that knitting those sweaters was THE MOST importnat thing, and at the
same time you use this terminology , you pull the rug out from under
your feet. Women, esp in soceities like those , you are trying to
talk about, Don`t find time, they use every moment , to do one two and
sometines 3 chores at the same time. They are in constant moove, from
one chore to the other!!! they do the knitting both out of need , but
also a lot of times as a means to sit down for a while , without
feeling guilty about `sitting`.
You cannot research such craft , by isolating it out of the `normal`
stream of daily life.
We have been at another point of this debate before. I have told you
the same things, you assume to much , and don`t even have the respect
to those people by adding this 2 plain words ;I assume.
mirjam

How can i explain to you , that i am not debating with you about YOUR
ability to knit in a measured time .
My point is that unless you did it under the EXACT similar
circumstances,, i, e living on a shore in a fishermen`s village
without all you modern machinery , thus you may have to go out to out
house , bring water from outside source , not have proper light, have
to cook in same circumstances and have a child or two to take care of
[ feeding washing clothes , nending his clothes etc...] than your
experiment will come close to those of the women who performed it.
and i ONLY asked you to add one NEEDED word to your experiment ,,
please write I ASSUME , it will do a lot to make your experiment more
Scientific ...
As to using a Sheath or not using it ,, how do you know i never tried
???? YOU ASSUME i never tried ,,,, Nothing wrong with assuming , Very
wrong to state assumptions as Facts,,, as a matter of fact i have
used one in circumstances that needed it , for enough length of time ,
to make my opinion about the use of it valid. But i am not assuming
that my experience shades any light on how those other people used it.

I never said i don`t believe historical evidence i said you [ or any
one else for that matter ] can`t take any Experiment under
contemporary circumstances and Authomnaticly assume it is similar to
another time and area,,,,
you have let out many factors that should be taken into account as
well ,,,
And last not least Even historical written evidence should be read
with reserve ,,,, I have seen various Historical evidebces that are
diferent , or mot 100 parallel ,,,
And ps stop telling what my Disbelif is... i stated clear enough what
my problem is with your Statements ,,,, they are too generalized and
too many parts are assumptions without leaving Doubt to the many facts
you still don`t know.
Speaking of Disbelief , maybe you disbelief the ability of other
people to use their Life long experience of Checking Documents , and
Techniques , and knowing that there are limits to the knowledge we can
learn from THESE things, and that it is better to let other know that
we assumed,,,
mirjam


Mirjam,
I had written, historical evidence and you did not believe it, so I did an
experiment to see if it was plausible.

Let me summarize what we agree on.

1. The life of fisher families was hard.

2. Fishermen required finely knit ganseys to continue their trade.

3. Many of the fishermen's ganseys were knit by their wives or mothers or
sisters.

4. Such knitting was very high quality, and produced an essential capital
good, the value of which was NOT captured in historical documents.

We differ on how long it took for a wife and mother to knit a gansey.

I have found documentation that it was common for the "herring girls", that
migrated up and down the coast helping to process fish catches, to be able
to knit a gansey in a week or two. Many of these herring girls were or
became the wives of fishermen. Thus, many fishermen's wives knit very fast.
They used knitting sheaths to knit much faster and much tighter than anyone
is likely to knit for a sustained period of time with circular or single
pointed needles. (The physics are different!) That is your real point of
your disbelief. Despite all those pictures of knitting sheaths in old
knitting books such as Mary Thomas, you never tried knitting with a knitting
sheath! Why were there so many old knitting sheaths around? Because they
worked!

At this point, I believe the historical documentation is correct and
plausible. I now find it reasonable that wives and mothers often produced
ganseys in 2 months or less. And, a sister or girl friend or professional
knitter could produce a gansey in 2 weeks or less of dedicated, full time
work. Of course, the finer Lincolnshire and Sheringham Guernseys would take
50% longer.

Aaron


"Mirjam Bruck-Cohen" wrote in message
...
I am not ARGUING anything with you ,
I am saying /writing , both from life experience as a woman and as a
person living in a different climate than yours , and having lived in
various different climates, and having lived through various Different
places and times with different levels of having to do manual work,
and housework . THAT YOU , like anybody else , CAN NOT MAKE
ASSUMPTIONS like that,about How many hours women in another time/place
and circumstances, could `find` to knit or do any other chore, unless
you find written evidence to that , Also i declare that using the
term `could find 20 hours` , is not a very complimentary word.

I am going further to say that , being a man , you can`t measure a
woman`s ability to work. All your calculations are done /made on your
own ability , a man who grew up in 20th century, with all the better
food , better health etc,, than those women. Many of whom had
Rheumaticism in an early age, or other illness or bodily problems.
have you tried to work with painful arms and or fingers. Have you
tried to work with a sick coughing child next to you,,,,, Unless you
live in SAME Conditions , like they did, without Any of the
contemporary luxeries , YOU CAN NOT use your measurement of speed as a
FACT , about their lives.
You are not the only person , who does THIS mistake. you remind me of
the male doctor, who couched us [years ago] for labour , and ended his
course with ; "when we want it we can have LOADS of milk to feed our
baby ",,,, the whole group of ladies had the best laugh in years ,,,,
every single one of them reacted like me ... that we would Love to see
him nurse a baby at his `breasts` ....
You also remind me of a student, who came to me , because he couldn`t
proove that `all weaving was done on a Triangular Warp`,,, his
starting point were the Greek and Egyptian drawing where the warp on a
hanging loom was sort of drawn as if all warps met at the middle....
Thus we built a similar loom , i hung up a warp with weights , wove
some wefts and asked to measure EXACTLY the place of each warp and
weight , Than i invited him to coffee and we let it hang in the air...
we discused other matters and after an hour + we went back to the loom
,,, and measured ,,, the weights slowly pulled the warp thread towards
the middle , after 2 more hours he understood it.

The only point i do agreewith you , is about women not getting enough
credit , so what else is new ?????
If you think that by your calculations you give them credit? you ruin
your own Pronounced Goal ,,, by using words as ..."could not find 20
hours".... because this is full of assumptions , if indeed you claim ,
that knitting those sweaters was THE MOST importnat thing, and at the
same time you use this terminology , you pull the rug out from under
your feet. Women, esp in soceities like those , you are trying to
talk about, Don`t find time, they use every moment , to do one two and
sometines 3 chores at the same time. They are in constant moove, from
one chore to the other!!! they do the knitting both out of need , but
also a lot of times as a means to sit down for a while , without
feeling guilty about `sitting`.
You cannot research such craft , by isolating it out of the `normal`
stream of daily life.
We have been at another point of this debate before. I have told you
the same things, you assume to much , and don`t even have the respect
to those people by adding this 2 plain words ;I assume.
mirjam

Speaking of learning to use a knitting sheath, Tell us about your
experiences with a knitting sheath

How long did it take you to learn to use knitting sheaths? Did you learn
"spring action" (where the left needle is held vertically) methods? And
methods where the working needle is pushed left with the palm and pushed
right with the thumb (the left needle is held horizontally)? The physics
of the two methods are quite different.

Did you use it with long needles or short?? What size??

Were you able to use a spring action socket for sock needles (for sleeves
and cuffs, etc?)

Did you use it for knitting tightly? Or, for looser modern style knitting?

Did you use wood needles or spring steel needles or baleen?

Was it faster for you?
Was it easier on your hands and wrists?
Did you notice the extra effort in the upper arms?

Most importantly, why did you stop using knitting sheaths?





Aaron



"Mirjam Bruck-Cohen" wrote in message
...
How can i explain to you , that i am not debating with you about YOUR
ability to knit in a measured time .
My point is that unless you did it under the EXACT similar
circumstances,, i, e living on a shore in a fishermen`s village
without all you modern machinery , thus you may have to go out to out
house , bring water from outside source , not have proper light, have
to cook in same circumstances and have a child or two to take care of
[ feeding washing clothes , nending his clothes etc...] than your
experiment will come close to those of the women who performed it.
and i ONLY asked you to add one NEEDED word to your experiment ,,
please write I ASSUME , it will do a lot to make your experiment more
Scientific ...
As to using a Sheath or not using it ,, how do you know i never tried
???? YOU ASSUME i never tried ,,,, Nothing wrong with assuming , Very
wrong to state assumptions as Facts,,, as a matter of fact i have
used one in circumstances that needed it , for enough length of time ,
to make my opinion about the use of it valid. But i am not assuming
that my experience shades any light on how those other people used it.

I never said i don`t believe historical evidence i said you [ or any
one else for that matter ] can`t take any Experiment under
contemporary circumstances and Authomnaticly assume it is similar to
another time and area,,,,
you have let out many factors that should be taken into account as
well ,,,
And last not least Even historical written evidence should be read
with reserve ,,,, I have seen various Historical evidebces that are
diferent , or mot 100 parallel ,,,
And ps stop telling what my Disbelif is... i stated clear enough what
my problem is with your Statements ,,,, they are too generalized and
too many parts are assumptions without leaving Doubt to the many facts
you still don`t know.
Speaking of Disbelief , maybe you disbelief the ability of other
people to use their Life long experience of Checking Documents , and
Techniques , and knowing that there are limits to the knowledge we can
learn from THESE things, and that it is better to let other know that
we assumed,,,
mirjam


Mirjam,
I had written, historical evidence and you did not believe it, so I did
an
experiment to see if it was plausible.

Let me summarize what we agree on.

1. The life of fisher families was hard.

2. Fishermen required finely knit ganseys to continue their trade.

3. Many of the fishermen's ganseys were knit by their wives or mothers or
sisters.

4. Such knitting was very high quality, and produced an essential capital
good, the value of which was NOT captured in historical documents.

We differ on how long it took for a wife and mother to knit a gansey.

I have found documentation that it was common for the "herring girls",
that
migrated up and down the coast helping to process fish catches, to be
able
to knit a gansey in a week or two. Many of these herring girls were or
became the wives of fishermen. Thus, many fishermen's wives knit very
fast.
They used knitting sheaths to knit much faster and much tighter than
anyone
is likely to knit for a sustained period of time with circular or single
pointed needles. (The physics are different!) That is your real point of
your disbelief. Despite all those pictures of knitting sheaths in old
knitting books such as Mary Thomas, you never tried knitting with a
knitting
sheath! Why were there so many old knitting sheaths around? Because they
worked!

At this point, I believe the historical documentation is correct and
plausible. I now find it reasonable that wives and mothers often produced
ganseys in 2 months or less. And, a sister or girl friend or professional
knitter could produce a gansey in 2 weeks or less of dedicated, full time
work. Of course, the finer Lincolnshire and Sheringham Guernseys would
take
50% longer.

Aaron


"Mirjam Bruck-Cohen" wrote in message
...
I am not ARGUING anything with you ,
I am saying /writing , both from life experience as a woman and as a
person living in a different climate than yours , and having lived in
various different climates, and having lived through various Different
places and times with different levels of having to do manual work,
and housework . THAT YOU , like anybody else , CAN NOT MAKE
ASSUMPTIONS like that,about How many hours women in another time/place
and circumstances, could `find` to knit or do any other chore, unless
you find written evidence to that , Also i declare that using the
term `could find 20 hours` , is not a very complimentary word.

I am going further to say that , being a man , you can`t measure a
woman`s ability to work. All your calculations are done /made on your
own ability , a man who grew up in 20th century, with all the better
food , better health etc,, than those women. Many of whom had
Rheumaticism in an early age, or other illness or bodily problems.
have you tried to work with painful arms and or fingers. Have you
tried to work with a sick coughing child next to you,,,,, Unless you
live in SAME Conditions , like they did, without Any of the
contemporary luxeries , YOU CAN NOT use your measurement of speed as a
FACT , about their lives.
You are not the only person , who does THIS mistake. you remind me of
the male doctor, who couched us [years ago] for labour , and ended his
course with ; "when we want it we can have LOADS of milk to feed our
baby ",,,, the whole group of ladies had the best laugh in years ,,,,
every single one of them reacted like me ... that we would Love to see
him nurse a baby at his `breasts` ....
You also remind me of a student, who came to me , because he couldn`t
proove that `all weaving was done on a Triangular Warp`,,, his
starting point were the Greek and Egyptian drawing where the warp on a
hanging loom was sort of drawn as if all warps met at the middle....
Thus we built a similar loom , i hung up a warp with weights , wove
some wefts and asked to measure EXACTLY the place of each warp and
weight , Than i invited him to coffee and we let it hang in the air...
we discused other matters and after an hour + we went back to the loom
,,, and measured ,,, the weights slowly pulled the warp thread towards
the middle , after 2 more hours he understood it.

The only point i do agreewith you , is about women not getting enough
credit , so what else is new ?????
If you think that by your calculations you give them credit? you ruin
your own Pronounced Goal ,,, by using words as ..."could not find 20
hours".... because this is full of assumptions , if indeed you claim ,
that knitting those sweaters was THE MOST importnat thing, and at the
same time you use this terminology , you pull the rug out from under
your feet. Women, esp in soceities like those , you are trying to
talk about, Don`t find time, they use every moment , to do one two and
sometines 3 chores at the same time. They are in constant moove, from
one chore to the other!!! they do the knitting both out of need , but
also a lot of times as a means to sit down for a while , without
feeling guilty about `sitting`.
You cannot research such craft , by isolating it out of the `normal`
stream of daily life.
We have been at another point of this debate before. I have told you
the same things, you assume to much , and don`t even have the respect
to those people by adding this 2 plain words ;I assume.
mirjam

Why should i disturb your theory with my facts ...
i tried it and don`t do it anymore, and that is that .
mirjam

Speaking of learning to use a knitting sheath, Tell us about your
experiences with a knitting sheath

How long did it take you to learn to use knitting sheaths? Did you learn
"spring action" (where the left needle is held vertically) methods? And
methods where the working needle is pushed left with the palm and pushed
right with the thumb (the left needle is held horizontally)? The physics
of the two methods are quite different.

Did you use it with long needles or short?? What size??

Were you able to use a spring action socket for sock needles (for sleeves
and cuffs, etc?)

Did you use it for knitting tightly? Or, for looser modern style knitting?

Did you use wood needles or spring steel needles or baleen?

Was it faster for you?
Was it easier on your hands and wrists?
Did you notice the extra effort in the upper arms?

Most importantly, why did you stop using knitting sheaths?





Aaron



"Mirjam Bruck-Cohen" wrote in message
...
How can i explain to you , that i am not debating with you about YOUR
ability to knit in a measured time .
My point is that unless you did it under the EXACT similar
circumstances,, i, e living on a shore in a fishermen`s village
without all you modern machinery , thus you may have to go out to out
house , bring water from outside source , not have proper light, have
to cook in same circumstances and have a child or two to take care of
[ feeding washing clothes , nending his clothes etc...] than your
experiment will come close to those of the women who performed it.
and i ONLY asked you to add one NEEDED word to your experiment ,,
please write I ASSUME , it will do a lot to make your experiment more
Scientific ...
As to using a Sheath or not using it ,, how do you know i never tried
???? YOU ASSUME i never tried ,,,, Nothing wrong with assuming , Very
wrong to state assumptions as Facts,,, as a matter of fact i have
used one in circumstances that needed it , for enough length of time ,
to make my opinion about the use of it valid. But i am not assuming
that my experience shades any light on how those other people used it.

I never said i don`t believe historical evidence i said you [ or any
one else for that matter ] can`t take any Experiment under
contemporary circumstances and Authomnaticly assume it is similar to
another time and area,,,,
you have let out many factors that should be taken into account as
well ,,,
And last not least Even historical written evidence should be read
with reserve ,,,, I have seen various Historical evidebces that are
diferent , or mot 100 parallel ,,,
And ps stop telling what my Disbelif is... i stated clear enough what
my problem is with your Statements ,,,, they are too generalized and
too many parts are assumptions without leaving Doubt to the many facts
you still don`t know.
Speaking of Disbelief , maybe you disbelief the ability of other
people to use their Life long experience of Checking Documents , and
Techniques , and knowing that there are limits to the knowledge we can
learn from THESE things, and that it is better to let other know that
we assumed,,,
mirjam


Mirjam,
I had written, historical evidence and you did not believe it, so I did
an
experiment to see if it was plausible.

Let me summarize what we agree on.

1. The life of fisher families was hard.

2. Fishermen required finely knit ganseys to continue their trade.

3. Many of the fishermen's ganseys were knit by their wives or mothers or
sisters.

4. Such knitting was very high quality, and produced an essential capital
good, the value of which was NOT captured in historical documents.

We differ on how long it took for a wife and mother to knit a gansey.

I have found documentation that it was common for the "herring girls",
that
migrated up and down the coast helping to process fish catches, to be
able
to knit a gansey in a week or two. Many of these herring girls were or
became the wives of fishermen. Thus, many fishermen's wives knit very
fast.
They used knitting sheaths to knit much faster and much tighter than
anyone
is likely to knit for a sustained period of time with circular or single
pointed needles. (The physics are different!) That is your real point of
your disbelief. Despite all those pictures of knitting sheaths in old
knitting books such as Mary Thomas, you never tried knitting with a
knitting
sheath! Why were there so many old knitting sheaths around? Because they
worked!

At this point, I believe the historical documentation is correct and
plausible. I now find it reasonable that wives and mothers often produced
ganseys in 2 months or less. And, a sister or girl friend or professional
knitter could produce a gansey in 2 weeks or less of dedicated, full time
work. Of course, the finer Lincolnshire and Sheringham Guernseys would
take
50% longer.

Aaron


"Mirjam Bruck-Cohen" wrote in message
...
I am not ARGUING anything with you ,
I am saying /writing , both from life experience as a woman and as a
person living in a different climate than yours , and having lived in
various different climates, and having lived through various Different
places and times with different levels of having to do manual work,
and housework . THAT YOU , like anybody else , CAN NOT MAKE
ASSUMPTIONS like that,about How many hours women in another time/place
and circumstances, could `find` to knit or do any other chore, unless
you find written evidence to that , Also i declare that using the
term `could find 20 hours` , is not a very complimentary word.

I am going further to say that , being a man , you can`t measure a
woman`s ability to work. All your calculations are done /made on your
own ability , a man who grew up in 20th century, with all the better
food , better health etc,, than those women. Many of whom had
Rheumaticism in an early age, or other illness or bodily problems.
have you tried to work with painful arms and or fingers. Have you
tried to work with a sick coughing child next to you,,,,, Unless you
live in SAME Conditions , like they did, without Any of the
contemporary luxeries , YOU CAN NOT use your measurement of speed as a
FACT , about their lives.
You are not the only person , who does THIS mistake. you remind me of
the male doctor, who couched us [years ago] for labour , and ended his
course with ; "when we want it we can have LOADS of milk to feed our
baby ",,,, the whole group of ladies had the best laugh in years ,,,,
every single one of them reacted like me ... that we would Love to see
him nurse a baby at his `breasts` ....
You also remind me of a student, who came to me , because he couldn`t
proove that `all weaving was done on a Triangular Warp`,,, his
starting point were the Greek and Egyptian drawing where the warp on a
hanging loom was sort of drawn as if all warps met at the middle....
Thus we built a similar loom , i hung up a warp with weights , wove
some wefts and asked to measure EXACTLY the place of each warp and
weight , Than i invited him to coffee and we let it hang in the air...
we discused other matters and after an hour + we went back to the loom
,,, and measured ,,, the weights slowly pulled the warp thread towards
the middle , after 2 more hours he understood it.

The only point i do agreewith you , is about women not getting enough
credit , so what else is new ?????
If you think that by your calculations you give them credit? you ruin
your own Pronounced Goal ,,, by using words as ..."could not find 20
hours".... because this is full of assumptions , if indeed you claim ,
that knitting those sweaters was THE MOST importnat thing, and at the
same time you use this terminology , you pull the rug out from under
your feet. Women, esp in soceities like those , you are trying to
talk about, Don`t find time, they use every moment , to do one two and
sometines 3 chores at the same time. They are in constant moove, from
one chore to the other!!! they do the knitting both out of need , but
also a lot of times as a means to sit down for a while , without
feeling guilty about `sitting`.
You cannot research such craft , by isolating it out of the `normal`
stream of daily life.
We have been at another point of this debate before. I have told you
the same things, you assume to much , and don`t even have the respect
to those people by adding this 2 plain words ;I assume.
mirjam

In article , Shillelagh wrote:
"Katherine" wrote

When I used to knit them, Aaron, it would take me about six weeks to
knit an adult size. I would knit while my son was napping and for a
couple of hours after he went to bed.

Wow. The one and only Aran I've ever done took me months to complete, even
with me making sure to do some of it every day. The sweater turned out very
well and I'm very proud of it. I made it as a Christmas gift for my DIL and
she loves it too.

Aaron is talking about guernseys, not Aran patterned sweaters, and Katherine
is addressing Aaron... or have I missed a joke?

I knit an Aran style sweater in about six or seven weeks once, but I was
in college and did quite a lot of the knitting during Christmas vacation
when I literally had all day to knit.

=Tamar