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  #11  
Old December 12th 03, 11:11 PM
Lippy Zaner
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In article , am
says...

(Lippy Zaner) verbositized:

In article ,
says...

Hi, Just a quick question:
"What is the definition of a Craft?"


That's as specious as asking "what is Art?"

Or even worse, what separates "art" from "craft?"

Or what separates an "illustrator" from an "artist?"

They're mindless and pointless questions, IMO.
Unless you just like to argue!

Not necessarily pointless Lippy.

I was a graphic artist for several years, but I cannot draw or paint
at all. Yet I was considered an excellent graphics artist in the
field of graphic arts I worked in


And you make my point for me. It's POINTLESS to
argue who is a "graphic artist" and who isn't!

Why? Because some graphic artists are highly skilled
at rendering what they see or imagine while others
have no rendering skills whatsoever, but they still
are referred to as "artists" in a graphic sense!


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  #12  
Old December 12th 03, 11:20 PM
Lippy Zaner
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In article , ] says...


That is true, but in this case I was moaning about the fact that this
person, although she could see that I had a better product, was trying
to beat down my price to that of an inferior product.


That's one of the best ways I know of to go home
satisfied that you've made a great buy - talking
down the seller so that you have a price you can
live with for something you liked but may not have
bought at the advertised price. It's what flea markets
and "free markets" are all about, after all. People
who shop only at stores where bargaining isn't usually
done miss a great opportunity when shopping at markets
where it's expected!

As for the the other post, from "R," most craft shows
state explicitly that "all items for sale must be
originals hand-made by the artist" or some such
qualifying statement. If you enter an art/craft show
that does NOT have such a qualifying statement, then
you have only yourself to blame if other exhibitors
are displaying items "made in China" or whatever.

Art/craft shows come in all sizes and types, IME!




  #13  
Old December 13th 03, 04:36 PM
Eliza Wright
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Lippy Zaner wrote
In article , ] says...


That is true, but in this case I was moaning about the fact that this
person, although she could see that I had a better product, was trying
to beat down my price to that of an inferior product.


That's one of the best ways I know of to go home
satisfied that you've made a great buy - talking
down the seller


Well, if you like to go home feeling you've cheated somebody out of
their rightful earnings, then I suppose it is.....
(Okay I know the seller does not have to accept the offer)

Eliza.
--

URL: http://www.2fishes.co.uk/ - Skye-inspired Cross Stitch
New!! Lindisfarne Collection - 2 designs, start of new series.
  #14  
Old December 13th 03, 11:41 PM
Malcolm Kane
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In message , R
writes
Hi, Just a quick question:
"What is the definition of a Craft?"
I'm interested to know as some of the things I see around today do not
appear to be crafts, but more like hobbies.


In my opinion craft is the successful application of skills of hand eye
and mind to produce an item of quality and appeal. There is no harm in
it being a hobby. What I do think however is that if a hobbyist chooses
to sell their work they have a duty to their craft and other crafts
people to sell the work at a fair price which reflects the time skill
and materials used. They should not be selling it at a price to cover
their materials and give them a small profit.

I was under the impression that
a craft was something that could only be achieved or undertaken by a
professional, as in craftsman? (or woman)


NO need to be professional as in being paid with the condition about
sale above applied. To me the skills and quality are what make it craft
(not to mention a certain amount of hand work - see below.)


I understand that there are many people who undertake crafts in their spare
time,


No harm in that providing they maintain good standards and don't
undermine full time craft workers by their quality or prices.

I'm just a bit peeved with people who throw stickers on cards, a bit
of glitter and then charge the earth for a handmade, crafted card?


Most I have seen are reasonably priced compared with similar commercial
products. Perhaps I haven't been looking in the right (or wrong)
places.

To play devils advocate you could say if they get customers then the
price can't be too bad.


--
Malcolm Kane
  #15  
Old December 13th 03, 11:52 PM
Malcolm Kane
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In message , Lippy Zaner
writes
In article , ] says...

But that's what we are often up against
I'm afraid.


I presume you live in a free enterprise
culture where competition is encouraged?
If so, then what system would you prefer instead?

Art and Craft fairs are often a microcosm
of world trade practices, IMO. Those who
are working for the least wage can sell
their widgets cheaper.


The problem is those who are working for no wage at all. I have seen
one stall holder telling every customer he only charged for materials
and going by the prices he did.
--
Malcolm Kane
  #16  
Old December 13th 03, 11:57 PM
Malcolm Kane
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In message , Eliza Wright
] writes
Lippy Zaner wrote
In article , ] says...

But that's what we are often up against
I'm afraid.


I presume you live in a free enterprise
culture where competition is encouraged?
If so, then what system would you prefer instead?

Art and Craft fairs are often a microcosm
of world trade practices, IMO. Those who
are working for the least wage can sell
their widgets cheaper.


That is true, but in this case I was moaning about the fact that this
person, although she could see that I had a better product, was trying
to beat down my price to that of an inferior product.


Sadly we live in a world which is being encouraged to always expect to
be able to encourage the price down.

I know it is not the same field but programmes such as the BBC's
"bargain Hunt" which give the impression that you should always expect
to get things for a reduced price do not help.

IMO what will slowly happen is that prices will adjust to allow for
"discounts" an every thing will seem dearer on the price tag.

If the dolls had been the same, (or even if she hadn't been able to
notice the difference) she would have gone and bought the cheaper one
wouldn't she? There would have been no argument. I guess it is her
attitude I'm complaining about. (But you will always get someone trying
it on).


Sadly more and more expect it.
--
Malcolm Kane
  #17  
Old January 6th 04, 07:13 AM
Sweet Sawdust
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Let me throw this in:
Craft is a body of work, such as book binding, chair canning, jewelery
making, quilting etc. Any one can perform the work needed to do a craft,
although not always well. A craftsman is someone who has learned the skills
needed to do a craft in a manner that shows a high level of expertise in a
givin craft, a Master Craftsman is one who is profecent in the performance
of the craft and is able to preform new forms or add new techniques to the
craft. A crafter never reaches the level of craftsman, only those who are
dedicted to thier craft reach that level and only the few of those who have
the talent and dedication and love of the craft ever go to Master.

To much of the stuff you see for sale is done by crafters, or done for money
and not love of the craft. The public has gotten the "Wal-Mart" mentality
of buy it cheap and have more and that will never change. We can only hope
for more people to buy for quality and beauty and keep the different crafts
alive.


  #18  
Old January 8th 04, 03:04 PM
R
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Hi Sweet
That's an excellent summary, which I agree with. My only concern is that the
general public doesnt know the distinction between the levels of expertise,
especially given that anyone can seemingly call themselves a "Craftsman"
regardless.
Personally, I think that there should be something (like a legal
certificate) that you should need to aquire before being allowed o call
yourself a Craftsman or Master Craftsman - this certificate should be based
on the level of your work regardless of medium.
This would also give people something to aim for, and achieving that level
of work would definitely allow you to charge for the extra lelev of work,
quality and value.
There definitely needs to be something to sort out the wheat from the chaff!
Otherwise, we'll all get tarnished with the same brush...
Best wishes
Richard

"Sweet Sawdust" wrote in message
...
Let me throw this in:
Craft is a body of work, such as book binding, chair canning, jewelery
making, quilting etc. Any one can perform the work needed to do a craft,
although not always well. A craftsman is someone who has learned the

skills
needed to do a craft in a manner that shows a high level of expertise in a
givin craft, a Master Craftsman is one who is profecent in the

performance
of the craft and is able to preform new forms or add new techniques to the
craft. A crafter never reaches the level of craftsman, only those who

are
dedicted to thier craft reach that level and only the few of those who

have
the talent and dedication and love of the craft ever go to Master.

To much of the stuff you see for sale is done by crafters, or done for

money
and not love of the craft. The public has gotten the "Wal-Mart" mentality
of buy it cheap and have more and that will never change. We can only

hope
for more people to buy for quality and beauty and keep the different

crafts
alive.




  #19  
Old January 8th 04, 04:10 PM
Sweet Sawdust
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Here in Kentucky we have a program called the Ky Craft Marketing Program
which does that to some degree. It is a juried program by the state. To
become a member you have to pass a jury process and then get to put a logo
on your work to show that you are a member. The jury process is rather
stiff and is done on a 3 year basis and all new work has to be rejuried. I
think we ought to have a national group like that myself.
"R" wrote in message
...
Hi Sweet
That's an excellent summary, which I agree with. My only concern is that

the
general public doesnt know the distinction between the levels of

expertise,
especially given that anyone can seemingly call themselves a "Craftsman"
regardless.
Personally, I think that there should be something (like a legal
certificate) that you should need to aquire before being allowed o call
yourself a Craftsman or Master Craftsman - this certificate should be

based
on the level of your work regardless of medium.
This would also give people something to aim for, and achieving that level
of work would definitely allow you to charge for the extra lelev of work,
quality and value.
There definitely needs to be something to sort out the wheat from the

chaff!
Otherwise, we'll all get tarnished with the same brush...
Best wishes
Richard

"Sweet Sawdust" wrote in message
...
Let me throw this in:
Craft is a body of work, such as book binding, chair canning, jewelery
making, quilting etc. Any one can perform the work needed to do a

craft,
although not always well. A craftsman is someone who has learned the

skills
needed to do a craft in a manner that shows a high level of expertise in

a
givin craft, a Master Craftsman is one who is profecent in the

performance
of the craft and is able to preform new forms or add new techniques to

the
craft. A crafter never reaches the level of craftsman, only those who

are
dedicted to thier craft reach that level and only the few of those who

have
the talent and dedication and love of the craft ever go to Master.

To much of the stuff you see for sale is done by crafters, or done for

money
and not love of the craft. The public has gotten the "Wal-Mart"

mentality
of buy it cheap and have more and that will never change. We can only

hope
for more people to buy for quality and beauty and keep the different

crafts
alive.






  #20  
Old January 9th 04, 07:24 PM
Gary V. Deutschmann, Sr.
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Although it sounds like a good idea.

I would rather see it done on a local or national level through local
crafts organizations, than by getting the government involved.

Once the government gets involved, then fees start getting added and
finally they require a license. All too soon a permit will then be
required at additional expense. Then inspectors will follow-up on
government payroll, etc. And soon, only state licensed craftspersons
will be allowed to sell their works.

Don't say it will never happen.
Look what happed to ALL of the building trades!

TTUL
Gary

 




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