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#21
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So, here's the (hopefully) next topic of debate
m3rma1d wrote:
Abrasha wrote: Don't worry too much about the bored housewives in Tucson. They won't have the credentials to even be admitted in any of the major shows there. Nobody will let them in without proper credentials. They will be welcome at any of the many sideshows all over town. snip Abrasha, yer the only person who even answered my real questions. Could you BE any more perfect?? 3 Uh, a full head of hair would be nice. -- Abrasha http://www.abrasha.com |
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#22
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So, here's the (hopefully) next topic of debate
On Tue, 24 Jan 2006, m3rma1d wrote: Discuss! Please? I'd especially love to hear from some of the "seasoned veterans" who're ****ed off about all this. What can I say, I love ****ed off people 3 *And I don't mean to spout off such a personal attack on them really, it's more an attack on the ignorance as a whole... Maybe I'm a snob, but I guess I can live with that. What I want to know, where did the "veteran's" get the answers to their questions when they first started out? If you have such a problem with ignorance as a whole, what are you doing to irradicate it? How did you learn your craft? By the way, I'm not a bored housewife, who is into scrapbooking. I just like jewelry and didn't like what I could afford and couldn't afford what I liked. I don't consider myself an artist - I'm not that pretentious. But I don't like to be put down because I'm not a classically trained artist. However, I have paid good morning for the knowledge that I'm gaining. |
#23
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So, here's the (hopefully) next topic of debate
On Wed, 25 Jan 2006 06:20:19 GMT, HareBall
wrote: "Marilee J. Layman" wrote in : On Tue, 24 Jan 2006 09:42:31 GMT, HareBall wrote: "m3rma1d" wrote in : What does everyone think about the fact that making jewelry is now becoming almost as trendy among bored housewives & the like as scrapbooking, and more & more n00bs each year are showing up in Tucson in Feb. with no CLUE what they're stepping into? I'll step into this. Many a bored housewife are probably as talented, if not more so, than you or anyone else on this group. I strongly disagree with this. I'm active in some beading/jewelry forums and I can tell you that the average newbie to jewelry is not very talented. I didn't say the average, I said some. Actually, you said "many." -- Marilee J. Layman http://www.livejournal.com/users/mjlayman |
#24
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So, here's the (hopefully) next topic of debate
"Marilee J. Layman" wrote in
: SNIPPED I strongly disagree with this. I'm active in some beading/jewelry forums and I can tell you that the average newbie to jewelry is not very talented. I didn't say the average, I said some. Actually, you said "many." Ok, what is your definition of many? Can it not be less than average. It could in my definition. Especially if there are extreme amounts of people. Some of you need to get off of you high horse and remember where you were when you started. Like someone else said where did you start out at. Did you know everything when you started? Ignorance is only a lack of knowledge, not the same as stupidity. We are all ignorant on some subjects. Like I may not know as much as you about making jewelry, but I bet I can show you many things about electrical work. -- Larry S. TS 52 |
#25
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So, here's the (hopefully) next topic of debate
Martha Hughes wrote:
On Tue, 24 Jan 2006, m3rma1d wrote: Discuss! Please? I'd especially love to hear from some of the "seasoned veterans" who're ****ed off about all this. What can I say, I love ****ed off people 3 *And I don't mean to spout off such a personal attack on them really, it's more an attack on the ignorance as a whole... Maybe I'm a snob, but I guess I can live with that. What I want to know, where did the "veteran's" get the answers to their questions when they first started out? If you have such a problem with ignorance as a whole, what are you doing to irradicate it? How did you learn your craft? By the way, I'm not a bored housewife, who is into scrapbooking. I just like jewelry and didn't like what I could afford and couldn't afford what I liked. I don't consider myself an artist - I'm not that pretentious. But I don't like to be put down because I'm not a classically trained artist. However, I have paid good morning for the knowledge that I'm gaining. So you want to know where did the seasoned veterans get their answers? the answer is the same place and way as newbies have to get them today. Also I dont see the problem of ignorance as something to be erradicated. I dont owe the world a living nor does the world owe me one If anythig has been done before then the knowhow is out there for the finding. Looking at this in detail, 1. they went to jewellry school wherever that might be, or2. they did a PROPER search for the knowhow they wanted to find out about or3, they served a proper apprenticeship with a master, the thouble with most folks to day, is there not taught how to think, or to put it bluntly the dont know how to ask the right questions. Jewellery is just one skill set like many other. yiou can read it up till you look like a jeweller, but till you have practiced the skills and mastered the techniques by trial as well as error, you wont get anywhere. whats so annoying to us veterans is the newbe that is too lazy to do the simplest of his her own research and expects us to tell them how to do the simplest of tasks that 5 mins of research in a book will give the answer. Its presumtious of the newbe to expect someone whos time is worth many times more than the newbe.s to deal with trivial requests. were professionals, like others,whose time can be worth many hundres of dollars an hour. would you expect your lawyer, accountaht, doctor dentist or other professional to give his time to someone thats thinks the world owes them the knowhow? No, ive written this before here a no of times. If you can show that youve made an effort to find out and due to whatever circumstances you havnt, then most of us will be happy to point you in the right direction. and to comment on the original posting in this thread, So bored? What you write shows how and what you think. |
#26
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So, here's the (hopefully) next topic of debate
NY!
He is so colorful in what he says, must be ex navy! Jim Beadgasms for all "m3rma1d" wrote in message ... Kendall Davies wrote For what its worth I liked the chains in the 'new' section but I'm not sure that the soldering on the end caps couldn't have been done better. They're a ****ty pair of end caps, and that's 'cos they were the very first pair I made more than a year ago now. I'm too BUSY WORKING on new stuff to take new PICS of stuff all the time as I get better at it. Hence WHY my webpages are so negleccted, and WHY I put the disclaimers with the links. (HELLO!?) I am working on a tutorial for making the end caps for some folks who wanted to know (Which feels fat-headded to say, but you'll have to take it up with the folks who wanted it, I suppose) Serious question - Why do so you hate newbies so much? I really DON'T, for, if you'd read my other post, I AM a newbie as well (well, I've been playing in beads since I was 7 or 8, so about 20 years now... but as far as metalsmithing goes, only about 2 & 1/2 years.) What I hate, I suppose, is newbies who just don't even TRY to find things out for themselves before asking the same tired questions that can be brought up in google or a good book in less than a second's time. What I haste worse than that is newbies who are so ****ing scared to **** something up, they just want to ask and discuss it, and simply won't allow themselves to DIVE IN HEAD FIRST, **** SOMETHING UP, AND TEACH THEMSELVES SOMETHING. It's the best way to learn... I'm SO proud of my scrap pile, which some people don't understand. I see it as a 3 pound box of very valuble lessons learned. (I really should send it for refining, though :-P) Yes, I'm a n00b. And I teach myself everything. B.F.D. It's not so hard to do it quietly, thoughtfully, and respectfully. -- m3rma1d -- To reply in email, carefully remove my panties. www.creativespill.com (Now over a year without updates!) www.creativespill.com/a_few_new/pieces.html (They were new.. 10+ months ago!) |
#27
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So, here's the (hopefully) next topic of debate
Martha Hughes wrote:
What I want to know, where did the "veteran's" get the answers to their questions when they first started out? If you have such a problem with ignorance as a whole, what are you doing to irradicate it? How did you learn your craft? Following is a note I wrote on 8-26-2002 in response to a posting by Mary Lee Hu, metalsmith, goldsmith, artist, and professor at a University in Seattle, is a list serv that went out to metal educators, about my schooling to become a goldsmith. It's rather long. For those of you interested, here it is (I hope the formatting doesn't get all screwed up): Mary Hu wrote: I am often trying to decide, as I design new classes or projects...howmuch emphasis to place on technique, how much on design, how much on idea or concept... I am a product of our American post-war metals educational system. BFAat Cranbrook with Richard Thomas and MFA at SIU-Carbondale with Brent Kington. I thought I was getting a great education - especially at Cranbrook...it was a well respected art school wasn't it? When I visited some of the schools in London several years after finishing school I was amazed. We were at Sir John Cass College on the day theywere taking a test. They had been given a design - blueprint if you will -and had to complete it by the end of the day (yes, day-long classes). This is how we often took tests in at the Goldschmiedeschule in Pforzheim. When I got your email, I pulled out my old "Ausbildungsnachwies" (educational record book.) A record book every student had to keep according to some very strict rules and regulations, (even the handwriting in it was regulated) that spans the entire three years of my education to become a goldsmith, from day one (9-4-1973), with the first entry being "Aufnahme in die Berufsfachschule" (Entry into the trade school part of the school for goldsmithing) to the last day 6-23-1976, "Pruefung" (test -exam). This was the last day of a two day exam. 16 hours in total of goldsmithing. I still have the piece I made. We had tests throughout the year, and twice during each year we had a so-called "Zwischenpruefung IHK" (in between test (mid semester test?) for the Chamber of Industry and Commerce) In quickly going over my record book, I found these entries. 3-19-75 (This was during my second year) in the afternoon which was if I remember correctly from 1 to 5 PM, "Go: Zurichtung fuer Zwischenpruefung" (Goldsmithing: Preparation for in between test). 3-20-1975: Both morning and afternoon, i.e. from 8 to 12, and from 1 to 5 "Go: Zwischenpruefung IHK" (In between test for the Chamber of Industry and Commerce" Our names were not put on the pieces, but were given a number. The same test was taken by all of the students in the same year of education for goldsmith in all of Baden-Wuerttemberg. All the pieces were collected and critiqued against a scale and each other, for a number of criteria at a central location. As with your example we worked off a blue print of a given design. For this particular test, my score was 95 out of 100, which got me a grade 1.2 (In Germany 1 is the highest possible 6 is the worst). Throughout my education I had tests like these. The less advanced class was making a brooch from nickel silver - sawing out allthe holes where stones would be set into a flowing ribbon design. The piece would be graded at the end against how exactly it fit the design - probably with a caliper down to thousandths. Sounds about right. The advanced class was making a hinged watch band. In my second year at school, I made a watch case. I still have the watch. Kind of sloppy, if you ask me now. :-) I was amazed...here I was with my masters...and could I have done that? I was thinking, why wasn't I taught things like this? I think part of the answer lies in the history of the founding of this country (the US that is). A great deal of my education and the education of all the trades in Germany as well as in England, can be traced back directly to the days of the guilds of the renaissance and later. The guilds were the institutions that controlled all of the trades. Who was allowed in, i.e. be trained, how they were trained, how they were run, etc. The good part of that was, and still is, a guarantee of quality, of mastership, of the trades, to the buying public. They knew, that if a master was in charge of a particular project, whether it was making a piece of jewelry, building a house or making a cabinet, theywere dealing with someone who knew his trade, and would be able to deliver a good piece of work. To this day in Germany, one can not open a business, unless at least one of the owners of that business owns a "Meisterbrief" (Master's Certificate) in one of the trades offered by that business. Of course, the guilds were also very discriminatory. I for instance, being Jewish, would never have been allowed to be educated in one of the tradesrun by guilds. The same was true for members of other religions, or other minorities. The people who escaped Europe, to come to this country, also escaped the tyranny of the guilds. Unfortunately now, a couple of centuries later, we are stuck with an educational system, that in my opinion does not work. At least not where the trades like goldsmithing are concerned. I know, I know, we are not teaching trades here, we are teaching "Art". Yeah, right! But you all already know my opinion, so I am not going there again. But ask yourselves, did Wenzel Jamnitzer ever go to art school, did Benvenuto Cellini ever go to art school, did Titian, Goya, da Vinci, Breughel, Rembrandt? We get ourselves thousands of overeducated art majors every year, and ...oh ****, here I go again. Then we went out to the entranceway where a case displayed past student work - obviously things they were proud of - silver presentation cigar boxes and the like full of engraved inscriptions. Excellently made, ... Pretty much like the stuff you see in the hallway of the Goldschmiedeschule stiff, dull and boring...to me (a child of the 60s, US educated). All a matter of opinion. I find that kind of work rather inspiring and awesome. There is a beauty all of it's own in mastery of skill and technique. Ever since then, I have questioned - when is the best time to introduce technique and how much, and when to try to get the student to develop an individual sense of self, ideas, design and direction with those techniques. Once tightened, can someone be loosened up? I understand that electroshock therapy can be very useful here. Once loose, can someone later perfect the needed techniques? Only if one is willing to put in the time needed to do so. However, I do think that personal temperament and style have a great dealto do with this also. When someone wants to work with me, either as an apprentice or an assistant, I always ask them to bring everything they have made in thelast five years or so, so I can take a look at it. It doesn't matter if this are drawings, photos, metal work, jewelry. Good quality or bad. It is very unlikely, that someone who draws beautiful flowers and landscapes and carves fabulous waxes for organic jewelry, will be a better match for me,than someone who has tried to make a piece of jewelry out of geometric shapes and has failed miserably because all the seams are crooked and there are gaps andpits in every solder joint. I cannot teach the "organic person" how to see what I see, but I can teach the "geometric thinker" how to become a better craftsman. I have seen teachers here in the US go in various ways - give lots of freedom (tell me what you want to make and I will help you make it) - or throw lots of conceptual ideas at the students using found objects andglue to get them loose and thinking - or teach a technique and have everyone do a project of their own design using it - or introduce a technique and have all the students do a single assigned design using it - like the British school. Different approaches probably work better for different students (and different teachers). I doubt that one can really say one is completely bad - for all people and all teaching goals. I remember taking a workshop where the last example above was the teaching style. Monkey see, monkey do. That's an expression I use a lot when I teach an assistant. Watch what Ido, if you cannot see what I do, you cannot repeat it. If you cannot see your mistakes, you cannot fix them. And it is very important to make the mistakes also. You learn more from failure than from success. It was about the most wonderful workshop I have ever taken!!! Al Ching brought in Satsuo Ando, a Japanese masterof chasing and engraving with the Japanese style chasing tools. We watched him make a tool, we made it. We watched him use it to do X and we all tried to do X. It was either good as it was just like his or not good as it was not. By the end of the two weeks, we started not doing things exactly like his example - because, being Americans, we just HAD to be original. But we did learn a lot in a short time. Of course, we were all totally committedto the field by then. Not students looking around, trying to decide whatthey liked doing. I did not become a goldsmith in school, I already was goldsmith, when I entered goldsmithing school in Pforzheim. BTW, this is something I only found out later, I did not know this then. I think in life the natural way of development is "Be-Do-Have". Take for instance things we have all done in life, like taking piano lessons, or ballet classes, Little League baseball. That was different, more along the lines of "Have-Do-Be", meaning get the tutu and the ballet slippers (Have), take lessons and rehearse (Do) and you will become a dancer (Be). We all know, that this doesn't work, and we have all done it more than once during our life. With the model of Be-Do-Have, it is exactly the other way around. I am a goldsmith, therefore I will seek out teachers and do goldsmithing, and get the stuff I need to get to be a good goldsmith. Tiger Woods was a golfer at age four. Jehudi Menuhin was a violinist at age 6. I remember, George Leonard wrote a wonderful article about "mastery" someyears ago for Esquire Magazine. I still have a copy of it somewhere. I don't want to write from memory, because I would only get it wrong, I'll look it up. Too many young people these days need instant gratification... No ****! and sending a student back over and over to get the angle just right on the engraving chisels is risking having them quit. So what. Have them quit. The ones that don't are worth your attention. You have to find a way to make them understand that getting it just right is important, especially when it comes to engraving chisels. Take a look at the work of Steven Lindsay, one of the finest hand engravers in the US today.Look at his work and tell me that it doesn't make your mouth drop. His site is at http://www.lindsayengraving.com/index.html And the love and respect he has for his tools is also awe inspiring. Take a took at his shop at http://www.lindsayengraving.com/tour/index.html He also maintains a siteat http://www.EngravingSchool.com/, which is devoted to the teaching of hand engraving. This site has a great links page. Also take a look at the work of Adone Tiz Pozzobon at http://www.engravingarts.net/gallery...engraving.html (Home page: http://www.engravingarts.net/main.html) Gives new meaning tothe term so loosely used in the US, ... "master". Over the years I have experimented with how I teach - but mostly have stayed within the third example for the entry level courses. Classes are mostly technique centered, with assignments then defined loosely so that there is enough flexibility (I hope) to allow students to interpret them in a personally interesting or even exciting direction. But they have to show they understand and can do the required process. I think the person I pattern my teaching style after the most is Fred Fenster. I was able to observe Fred teach when I was fortunate enoughto be taking over for Eleanor Moty one year at Madison while she was on leave. I sat in on Fred's beginning class demonstrations and I cannot tell you how much I learned. He explained things so clearly, introduced things in a logical manner, demonstrated things for the students. My beginning classes had not had this type of teaching. It was more of a dive in and learnfrom each other experience. I would really be interested in the type of classes Abrasha had at Pforzheim? We pretty much did it all. See below. How many years was the course? Two years of schooling. After this a one year apprenticeship in a firm, which ended with a state exam which certified me as a "Juwelengoldschmied Geselle" (Journeyman Goldsmith) What subjects were taken - within metals and also non-metals or non-art? How long were the classes? Goldsmithing, Silversmithing (much less), Stone setting, Engraving, Enameling, Engine turning (Guilloche), Sculpture, Gemology, Jewelry related math, Geometric drawing , "Free" Drawing, Material knowledge (Werkstoffkunde), Work practices (Arbeitskunde), Art history, Economics, Sociology, German. The first year we had three times four hours of goldsmithing. The secondyear four times. All the other practical classes like silversmithing, engraving, stone setting were 4 hours each, and classes like drawing were shorter, the theoretical classes were one hour or 45 minute classes, I don't remember which. How many teachers did you have - one person to teach everything, or specialists brought in to teach their specialty only? Specialists only. they were not brought in, they mostly worked full timeat the school. They were all masters in each of their fields. In Germany you have to be a master in a trade in order to be allowed to teach others in a trade. Did you study both hollowware and jewelry, or only jewelry? Both. However, the amount of silversmithing (as it was called in Germany) was rather minimal and only exposing us to the two basic techniques of raising and sinking and doing a couple of very basic projects. A cup and a chalice, in my case. I never finished the chalice, still have the parts. The teacher was sick a lot that year. (In some of the British schools I visited, one had to choose and only study one or the other). Then, within jewelry, how were the techniques introduced - demos and a design that everyone had to do exactly?, or were you designing the things you made? We designed nothing. We got drawings of what we had to make. The teacher would explain on the black board. Demos were usually given. I remember havinga lot of difficulty "getting it" with how to make a good bright cut next to a stone in a bezel setting. My teacher kept trying to explain something in words, which cannot be explained in words. How to get the "feeling" for sharpening and polishing your graver just right so it just glides easily over the metal,barely cutting it. I figured it out 20 years later. What subjects/techniques were taught...I am sure basic benchworking and stonesetting, but what else? chasing, casting, engraving, etching, enameling, lapidary, filigree, chainmaking, etc, etc, etc. In school I did not do etching, lapidary, and filigree, however, these skills were available within the teaching faculty I am especially interested in the way some of the very basic things were taught - like for instance filing. We did nothing else, but laying out, drilling, sawing and filing for the first full three months of my education. I repeat THREE MONTHS. My first goldsmithing class test started in the 11th week. The test was spread over three classes, 12 hours. The test is described in my Record Book as "layout, drilling, sawing, filing". A week later we did our first "in between test" for the Chamber of Industry and Commerce; again layout, drilling, sawing and filing. This time with a little soldering thrown in at the end to nicely screw upthe piece. This has been one of the hardest things for me to teach students to do well. It IS one of the hardest things to do well. Oh yes, Abrasha asked me what I considered to be a good student. I did? I don't remember that. Are you sure that was me? In my mind a good student is one who is proactive about learning. One who reaches out to learn - pushes, stretches. I agree. My last student and later assistant, had a full time job when he came to me. He worked with me on his days off. I had said that I would teachhim, but that I was not interested in hiring him. He took my offer. One who does not keep asking if it is done yet. One who does not just do the minimum assigned. One who devises new learning experiences for him or herself and will keep doing that after leaving school. Abrasha http://www.abrasha.com |
#28
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So, here's the (hopefully) next topic of debate
Well, when I'm paying the professional several hundreds of dollars for the valuable time so that they can teach me a technique I expect to be able to ask them a questions, no matter how stupid or simplistic they feel it is. I don't expect to get something for nothing but if you're going to be a teacher of a craft stupid questions (no matter how many times you've been asked and answered in the past) are part and parcel of the teaching profession. Being a newbie, myself, I am quite adept of finding my own answers, researching for the solutions to my own problems, and I'm not scared to make mistakes (my best learning devices) and basically taking care of myself. However, I will go to my instructors when I've exhausted my skills and abilities and ask them to help me out. That's what they are being paid for - If I can't ask them questions (no matter how trite or stupid they might think they are) the why am I paying them several of thousands of dollars to have access to expertise? My time as an jewelry artist might not be as valuable as theirs - but I can sure bet you my time in my profession is just as valuable (seeing how part of it goes to paying them their salary). I don't ask for free advice. However, I'm willing to pay for it. So you want to know where did the seasoned veterans get their answers? the answer is the same place and way as newbies have to get them today. Also I dont see the problem of ignorance as something to be erradicated. I dont owe the world a living nor does the world owe me one If anythig has been done before then the knowhow is out there for the finding. Looking at this in detail, 1. they went to jewellry school wherever that might be, or2. they did a PROPER search for the knowhow they wanted to find out about or3, they served a proper apprenticeship with a master, the thouble with most folks to day, is there not taught how to think, or to put it bluntly the dont know how to ask the right questions. Jewellery is just one skill set like many other. yiou can read it up till you look like a jeweller, but till you have practiced the skills and mastered the techniques by trial as well as error, you wont get anywhere. whats so annoying to us veterans is the newbe that is too lazy to do the simplest of his her own research and expects us to tell them how to do the simplest of tasks that 5 mins of research in a book will give the answer. Its presumtious of the newbe to expect someone whos time is worth many times more than the newbe.s to deal with trivial requests. were professionals, like others,whose time can be worth many hundres of dollars an hour. would you expect your lawyer, accountaht, doctor dentist or other professional to give his time to someone thats thinks the world owes them the knowhow? No, ive written this before here a no of times. If you can show that youve made an effort to find out and due to whatever circumstances you havnt, then most of us will be happy to point you in the right direction. and to comment on the original posting in this thread, So bored? What you write shows how and what you think. |
#29
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So, here's the (hopefully) next topic of debate
Abrasha:
When you respond to questions like it's real easy for me to respect your opinion. I already respect your training and talent. Thank you for the thoughtful and informative response. M. Hughes |
#30
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So, here's the (hopefully) next topic of debate
Abrasha wrote:
Take a look at the work of Steven Lindsay, one of the finest hand engravers in the US today. Look at his work and tell me that it doesn't make your mouth drop. His siteis at http://www.lindsayengraving.com/index.html And the love and respect hehas for his tools is also awe inspiring. Take a took at his shop at http://www.lindsayengraving.com/tour/index.html He also maintains a site at http://www.EngravingSchool.com/, which is devoted to the teaching of hand engraving. This site has a great links page. Those first two links are wrong. My apologies for not checking before posting. They should be http://www.lindsayengraving.com/ and http://www.lindsayengraving.com/tour/ both without the "index.html" Abrasha http://www.abrasha.com |
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