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So, here's the (hopefully) next topic of debate



 
 
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  #21  
Old January 26th 06, 04:36 AM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
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Default So, here's the (hopefully) next topic of debate

m3rma1d wrote:
Abrasha wrote:


Don't worry too much about the bored housewives in Tucson. They won't
have the credentials to even be admitted in any of the major shows
there. Nobody will let them in without proper credentials. They will
be welcome at any of the many sideshows all over town.



snip

Abrasha, yer the only person who even answered my real questions.
Could you BE any more perfect?? 3





Uh, a full head of hair would be nice.

--
Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com

Ads
  #22  
Old January 26th 06, 04:36 AM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
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Default So, here's the (hopefully) next topic of debate


On Tue, 24 Jan 2006, m3rma1d wrote:


Discuss! Please? I'd especially love to hear from some of the "seasoned
veterans" who're ****ed off about all this. What can I say, I love ****ed
off people 3

*And I don't mean to spout off such a personal attack on them really, it's
more an attack on the ignorance as a whole... Maybe I'm a snob, but I guess
I can live with that.

What I want to know, where did the "veteran's" get the answers to
their questions when they first started out? If you have such a problem
with ignorance as a whole, what are you doing to irradicate it? How did
you learn your craft?

By the way, I'm not a bored housewife, who is into scrapbooking. I
just like jewelry and didn't like what I could afford and couldn't afford
what I liked. I don't consider myself an artist - I'm not that
pretentious. But I don't like to be put down because I'm not a classically
trained artist. However, I have paid good morning for the knowledge that
I'm gaining.

  #23  
Old January 26th 06, 04:36 AM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
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Default So, here's the (hopefully) next topic of debate

On Wed, 25 Jan 2006 06:20:19 GMT, HareBall
wrote:

"Marilee J. Layman" wrote in
:

On Tue, 24 Jan 2006 09:42:31 GMT, HareBall
wrote:

"m3rma1d" wrote in
:

What does everyone think about the fact that making jewelry is now
becoming almost as trendy among bored housewives & the like as
scrapbooking, and more & more n00bs each year are showing up in Tucson
in Feb. with no CLUE what they're stepping into?

I'll step into this. Many a bored housewife are probably as talented, if


not more so, than you or anyone else on this group.


I strongly disagree with this. I'm active in some beading/jewelry
forums and I can tell you that the average newbie to jewelry is not
very talented.


I didn't say the average, I said some.


Actually, you said "many."
--
Marilee J. Layman
http://www.livejournal.com/users/mjlayman

  #24  
Old January 26th 06, 07:23 AM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
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Default So, here's the (hopefully) next topic of debate

"Marilee J. Layman" wrote in
:

SNIPPED


I strongly disagree with this. I'm active in some beading/jewelry
forums and I can tell you that the average newbie to jewelry is not
very talented.


I didn't say the average, I said some.


Actually, you said "many."


Ok, what is your definition of many? Can it not be less than average. It
could in my definition. Especially if there are extreme amounts of people.
Some of you need to get off of you high horse and remember where you were
when you started. Like someone else said where did you start out at. Did
you know everything when you started? Ignorance is only a lack of
knowledge, not the same as stupidity. We are all ignorant on some subjects.
Like I may not know as much as you about making jewelry, but I bet I can
show you many things about electrical work.

--
Larry S.
TS 52

  #25  
Old January 26th 06, 07:23 AM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
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Default So, here's the (hopefully) next topic of debate

Martha Hughes wrote:
On Tue, 24 Jan 2006, m3rma1d wrote:


Discuss! Please? I'd especially love to hear from some of the "seasoned
veterans" who're ****ed off about all this. What can I say, I love ****ed
off people 3

*And I don't mean to spout off such a personal attack on them really, it's
more an attack on the ignorance as a whole... Maybe I'm a snob, but I guess
I can live with that.


What I want to know, where did the "veteran's" get the answers to
their questions when they first started out? If you have such a problem
with ignorance as a whole, what are you doing to irradicate it? How did
you learn your craft?

By the way, I'm not a bored housewife, who is into scrapbooking. I
just like jewelry and didn't like what I could afford and couldn't afford
what I liked. I don't consider myself an artist - I'm not that
pretentious. But I don't like to be put down because I'm not a classically
trained artist. However, I have paid good morning for the knowledge that
I'm gaining.

So you want to know where did the seasoned veterans get their answers?
the answer is
the same place and way as newbies have to get them today.

Also I dont see the problem of ignorance as something to be erradicated.
I dont owe the world a living nor does the world owe me one
If anythig has been done before then the knowhow is out there for the
finding. Looking at this in detail,
1. they went to jewellry school wherever that might be,
or2.
they did a PROPER search for the knowhow they wanted to find out about
or3,
they served a proper apprenticeship with a master,
the thouble with most folks to day, is there not taught how to think,
or to put it bluntly
the dont know how to ask the right questions.

Jewellery is just one skill set like many other.
yiou can read it up till you look like a jeweller, but
till you have practiced the skills and mastered the techniques by
trial as well as error, you wont get anywhere.

whats so annoying to us veterans is the newbe that is too lazy to do
the simplest of his her own research and expects us to tell them how to
do the simplest of tasks that 5 mins of research in a book will give the
answer.
Its presumtious of the newbe to expect someone whos time is worth many
times more than the newbe.s to deal with trivial requests.
were professionals, like others,whose time can be worth many hundres of
dollars an hour.
would you expect your lawyer, accountaht, doctor dentist or other
professional to give his time to someone thats thinks the world owes
them the knowhow?
No,
ive written this before here a no of times.
If you can show that youve made an effort to find out and due to
whatever circumstances you havnt, then most of us will be happy to
point you in the right direction.
and to comment on the original posting in this thread,
So bored?
What you write shows how and what you think.





  #26  
Old January 26th 06, 10:38 AM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
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Default So, here's the (hopefully) next topic of debate

NY!
He is so colorful in what he says, must be ex navy!


Jim


Beadgasms for all

"m3rma1d" wrote in message
...
Kendall Davies wrote

For what its worth I liked the chains in the 'new' section but I'm not sure
that the soldering on the end caps couldn't have been done better.



They're a ****ty pair of end caps, and that's 'cos they were the very first
pair I made more than a year ago now. I'm too BUSY WORKING on new stuff to
take new PICS of stuff all the time as I get better at it. Hence WHY my
webpages are so negleccted, and WHY I put the disclaimers with the links.
(HELLO!?)
I am working on a tutorial for making the end caps for some folks who wanted
to know (Which feels fat-headded to say, but you'll have to take it up with
the folks who wanted it, I suppose)



Serious question - Why do so you hate newbies so much?


I really DON'T, for, if you'd read my other post, I AM a newbie as well
(well, I've been playing in beads since I was 7 or 8, so about 20 years
now... but as far as metalsmithing goes, only about 2 & 1/2 years.)

What I hate, I suppose, is newbies who just don't even TRY to find things
out for themselves before asking the same tired questions that can be
brought up in google or a good book in less than a second's time.

What I haste worse than that is newbies who are so ****ing scared to ****
something up, they just want to ask and discuss it, and simply won't allow
themselves to DIVE IN HEAD FIRST, **** SOMETHING UP, AND TEACH THEMSELVES
SOMETHING.

It's the best way to learn... I'm SO proud of my scrap pile, which some
people don't understand. I see it as a 3 pound box of very valuble lessons
learned.

(I really should send it for refining, though :-P)

Yes, I'm a n00b. And I teach myself everything. B.F.D. It's not so hard to
do it quietly, thoughtfully, and respectfully.


-- m3rma1d
--
To reply in email, carefully remove my panties.
www.creativespill.com (Now over a year without updates!)
www.creativespill.com/a_few_new/pieces.html (They were new.. 10+ months
ago!)



  #27  
Old January 26th 06, 10:55 AM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
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Default So, here's the (hopefully) next topic of debate

Martha Hughes wrote:


What I want to know, where did the "veteran's" get the answers to
their questions when they first started out? If you have such a problem
with ignorance as a whole, what are you doing to irradicate it? How did
you learn your craft?


Following is a note I wrote on 8-26-2002 in response to a posting by
Mary Lee Hu, metalsmith, goldsmith, artist, and professor at a
University in Seattle, is a list serv that went out to metal educators,
about my schooling to become a goldsmith. It's rather long. For those
of you interested, here it is (I hope the formatting doesn't get all
screwed up):

Mary Hu wrote:


I am often trying to decide, as I design new classes or projects...howmuch
emphasis to place on technique, how much on design, how much on idea or
concept...

I am a product of our American post-war metals educational system. BFAat
Cranbrook with Richard Thomas and MFA at SIU-Carbondale with Brent Kington.
I thought I was getting a great education - especially at Cranbrook...it was
a well respected art school wasn't it?

When I visited some of the schools in London several years after finishing
school I was amazed. We were at Sir John Cass College on the day theywere
taking a test. They had been given a design - blueprint if you will -and
had to complete it by the end of the day (yes, day-long classes).




This is how we often took tests in at the Goldschmiedeschule in
Pforzheim. When I got your email, I pulled out my old "Ausbildungsnachwies"
(educational record book.) A record book every student had to keep according to
some very strict rules and regulations, (even the handwriting in it was
regulated) that spans the entire three years of my education to become a
goldsmith, from day one (9-4-1973), with the first entry being "Aufnahme in die
Berufsfachschule" (Entry into the trade school part of the school for
goldsmithing) to the last day 6-23-1976, "Pruefung" (test -exam). This was the
last day of a two day exam. 16 hours in total of goldsmithing. I still have the
piece I made.

We had tests throughout the year, and twice during each year we had a so-called
"Zwischenpruefung IHK" (in between test (mid semester test?) for the Chamber of
Industry and Commerce) In quickly going over my record book, I found these
entries.

3-19-75 (This was during my second year) in the afternoon which was if I
remember correctly from 1 to 5 PM, "Go: Zurichtung fuer Zwischenpruefung"
(Goldsmithing: Preparation for in between test).

3-20-1975: Both morning and afternoon, i.e. from 8 to 12, and from 1 to 5 "Go:
Zwischenpruefung IHK" (In between test for the Chamber of Industry and
Commerce"

Our names were not put on the pieces, but were given a number. The same test
was taken by all of the students in the same year of education for goldsmith in
all of Baden-Wuerttemberg. All the pieces were collected and critiqued against
a scale and each other, for a number of criteria at a central location. As with
your example we worked off a blue print of a given design. For this particular
test, my score was 95 out of 100, which got me a grade 1.2 (In Germany 1 is the
highest possible 6 is the worst).

Throughout my education I had tests like these.



The less
advanced class was making a brooch from nickel silver - sawing out allthe
holes where stones would be set into a flowing ribbon design. The piece
would be graded at the end against how exactly it fit the design - probably
with a caliper down to thousandths.



Sounds about right.


The advanced class was making a hinged
watch band.



In my second year at school, I made a watch case. I still have the watch. Kind
of sloppy, if you ask me now. :-)

I was amazed...here I was with my masters...and could I have
done that? I was thinking, why wasn't I taught things like this?




I think part of the answer lies in the history of the founding of this country
(the US that is). A great deal of my education and the education of all the
trades in Germany as well as in England, can be traced back directly to the days
of the guilds of the renaissance and later. The guilds were the institutions
that controlled all of the trades. Who was allowed in, i.e. be trained, how
they were trained, how they were run, etc. The good part of that was, and still
is, a guarantee of quality, of mastership, of the trades, to the buying public.
They knew, that if a master was in charge of a particular project, whether it
was making a piece of jewelry, building a house or making a cabinet, theywere
dealing with someone who knew his trade, and would be able to deliver a good
piece of work. To this day in Germany, one can not open a business, unless at
least one of the owners of that business owns a "Meisterbrief" (Master's
Certificate) in one of the trades offered by that business.

Of course, the guilds were also very discriminatory. I for instance, being
Jewish, would never have been allowed to be educated in one of the tradesrun by
guilds. The same was true for members of other religions, or other minorities.
The people who escaped Europe, to come to this country, also escaped the tyranny
of the guilds. Unfortunately now, a couple of centuries later, we are stuck
with an educational system, that in my opinion does not work. At least not
where the trades like goldsmithing are concerned.

I know, I know, we are not teaching trades here, we are teaching "Art". Yeah,
right! But you all already know my opinion, so I am not going there again. But
ask yourselves, did Wenzel Jamnitzer ever go to art school, did Benvenuto
Cellini ever go to art school, did Titian, Goya, da Vinci, Breughel, Rembrandt?

We get ourselves thousands of overeducated art majors every year, and ...oh
****, here I go again.



Then we went out to the entranceway where a case displayed past student work
- obviously things they were proud of - silver presentation cigar boxes and
the like full of engraved inscriptions. Excellently made, ...


Pretty much like the stuff you see in the hallway of the Goldschmiedeschule

stiff, dull
and boring...to me (a child of the 60s, US educated).


All a matter of opinion. I find that kind of work rather inspiring and
awesome. There is a beauty all of it's own in mastery of skill and technique.


Ever since then, I have questioned - when is the best time to introduce
technique and how much, and when to try to get the student to develop an
individual sense of self, ideas, design and direction with those techniques.
Once tightened, can someone be loosened up?


I understand that electroshock therapy can be very useful here.

Once loose, can someone later
perfect the needed techniques?


Only if one is willing to put in the time needed to do so.

However, I do think that personal temperament and style have a great dealto do
with this also. When someone wants to work with me, either as an apprentice or
an assistant, I always ask them to bring everything they have made in thelast
five years or so, so I can take a look at it. It doesn't matter if this are
drawings, photos, metal work, jewelry. Good quality or bad.

It is very unlikely, that someone who draws beautiful flowers and landscapes and
carves fabulous waxes for organic jewelry, will be a better match for me,than
someone who has tried to make a piece of jewelry out of geometric shapes and has
failed miserably because all the seams are crooked and there are gaps andpits
in every solder joint. I cannot teach the "organic person" how to see what I
see, but I can teach the "geometric thinker" how to become a better craftsman.


I have seen teachers here in the US go in various ways - give lots of
freedom (tell me what you want to make and I will help you make it) - or
throw lots of conceptual ideas at the students using found objects andglue
to get them loose and thinking - or teach a technique and have everyone do a
project of their own design using it - or introduce a technique and have all
the students do a single assigned design using it - like the British school.

Different approaches probably work better for different students (and
different teachers). I doubt that one can really say one is completely bad
- for all people and all teaching goals.

I remember taking a workshop where the last example above was the teaching
style. Monkey see, monkey do.



That's an expression I use a lot when I teach an assistant. Watch what Ido, if
you cannot see what I do, you cannot repeat it. If you cannot see your
mistakes, you cannot fix them. And it is very important to make the mistakes
also. You learn more from failure than from success.


It was about the most wonderful workshop I
have ever taken!!! Al Ching brought in Satsuo Ando, a Japanese masterof
chasing and engraving with the Japanese style chasing tools. We watched him
make a tool, we made it. We watched him use it to do X and we all tried to
do X. It was either good as it was just like his or not good as it was not.
By the end of the two weeks, we started not doing things exactly like his
example - because, being Americans, we just HAD to be original. But we did
learn a lot in a short time. Of course, we were all totally committedto
the field by then. Not students looking around, trying to decide whatthey
liked doing.



I did not become a goldsmith in school, I already was goldsmith, when I entered
goldsmithing school in Pforzheim. BTW, this is something I only found out
later, I did not know this then.

I think in life the natural way of development is "Be-Do-Have". Take for
instance things we have all done in life, like taking piano lessons, or ballet
classes, Little League baseball. That was different, more along the lines of
"Have-Do-Be", meaning get the tutu and the ballet slippers (Have), take lessons
and rehearse (Do) and you will become a dancer (Be). We all know, that this
doesn't work, and we have all done it more than once during our life.

With the model of Be-Do-Have, it is exactly the other way around. I am a
goldsmith, therefore I will seek out teachers and do goldsmithing, and get the
stuff I need to get to be a good goldsmith. Tiger Woods was a golfer at age
four. Jehudi Menuhin was a violinist at age 6.

I remember, George Leonard wrote a wonderful article about "mastery" someyears
ago for Esquire Magazine. I still have a copy of it somewhere. I don't want to
write from memory, because I would only get it wrong, I'll look it up.


Too many young people these days need instant
gratification...


No ****!

and sending a student back over and over to get the angle
just right on the engraving chisels is risking having them quit.


So what. Have them quit. The ones that don't are worth your attention. You
have to find a way to make them understand that getting it just right is
important, especially when it comes to engraving chisels. Take a look at the
work of Steven Lindsay, one of the finest hand engravers in the US today.Look
at his work and tell me that it doesn't make your mouth drop. His site is at
http://www.lindsayengraving.com/index.html And the love and respect he has for
his tools is also awe inspiring. Take a took at his shop at
http://www.lindsayengraving.com/tour/index.html He also maintains a siteat
http://www.EngravingSchool.com/, which is devoted to the teaching of hand
engraving. This site has a great links page.

Also take a look at the work of Adone Tiz Pozzobon at
http://www.engravingarts.net/gallery...engraving.html
(Home page: http://www.engravingarts.net/main.html) Gives new meaning tothe
term so loosely used in the US, ... "master".



Over the years I have experimented with how I teach - but mostly have stayed
within the third example for the entry level courses. Classes are mostly
technique centered, with assignments then defined loosely so that there is
enough flexibility (I hope) to allow students to interpret them in a
personally interesting or even exciting direction. But they have to show
they understand and can do the required process.

I think the person I pattern my teaching style after the most is Fred
Fenster. I was able to observe Fred teach when I was fortunate enoughto be
taking over for Eleanor Moty one year at Madison while she was on leave. I
sat in on Fred's beginning class demonstrations and I cannot tell you how
much I learned. He explained things so clearly, introduced things in a
logical manner, demonstrated things for the students. My beginning classes
had not had this type of teaching. It was more of a dive in and learnfrom
each other experience.

I would really be interested in the type of classes Abrasha had at
Pforzheim?


We pretty much did it all. See below.

How many years was the course?


Two years of schooling. After this a one year apprenticeship in a firm, which
ended with a state exam which certified me as a "Juwelengoldschmied Geselle"
(Journeyman Goldsmith)

What subjects were taken -
within metals and also non-metals or non-art? How long were the classes?


Goldsmithing, Silversmithing (much less), Stone setting, Engraving, Enameling,
Engine turning (Guilloche), Sculpture, Gemology, Jewelry related math, Geometric
drawing , "Free" Drawing, Material knowledge (Werkstoffkunde), Work practices
(Arbeitskunde), Art history, Economics, Sociology, German.

The first year we had three times four hours of goldsmithing. The secondyear
four times. All the other practical classes like silversmithing, engraving,
stone setting were 4 hours each, and classes like drawing were shorter, the
theoretical classes were one hour or 45 minute classes, I don't remember
which.

How many teachers did you have - one person to teach everything, or
specialists brought in to teach their specialty only?


Specialists only. they were not brought in, they mostly worked full timeat the
school. They were all masters in each of their fields. In Germany you have to
be a master in a trade in order to be allowed to teach others in a trade.


Did you study both
hollowware and jewelry, or only jewelry?


Both. However, the amount of silversmithing (as it was called in Germany) was
rather minimal and only exposing us to the two basic techniques of raising and
sinking and doing a couple of very basic projects. A cup and a chalice, in my
case. I never finished the chalice, still have the parts. The teacher was sick
a lot that year.


(In some of the British schools I
visited, one had to choose and only study one or the other).

Then, within jewelry, how were the techniques introduced - demos and a
design that everyone had to do exactly?, or were you designing the things
you made?



We designed nothing. We got drawings of what we had to make. The teacher would
explain on the black board. Demos were usually given. I remember havinga lot
of difficulty "getting it" with how to make a good bright cut next to a stone in
a bezel setting. My teacher kept trying to explain something in words, which
cannot be explained in words. How to get the "feeling" for sharpening and
polishing your graver just right so it just glides easily over the metal,barely
cutting it. I figured it out 20 years later.


What subjects/techniques were taught...I am sure basic
benchworking and stonesetting, but what else? chasing, casting, engraving,
etching, enameling, lapidary, filigree, chainmaking, etc, etc, etc.


In school I did not do etching, lapidary, and filigree, however, these skills
were available within the teaching faculty

I am especially interested in the way some of the very basic things were
taught - like for instance filing.


We did nothing else, but laying out, drilling, sawing and filing for the first
full three months of my education. I repeat THREE MONTHS. My first
goldsmithing class test started in the 11th week. The test was spread over
three classes, 12 hours. The test is described in my Record Book as "layout,
drilling, sawing, filing". A week later we did our first "in between test" for
the Chamber of Industry and Commerce; again layout, drilling, sawing and filing.
This time with a little soldering thrown in at the end to nicely screw upthe
piece.

This has been one of the hardest things
for me to teach students to do well.


It IS one of the hardest things to do well.


Oh yes, Abrasha asked me what I considered to be a good student.


I did? I don't remember that. Are you sure that was me?

In my mind
a good student is one who is proactive about learning. One who reaches out
to learn - pushes, stretches.


I agree. My last student and later assistant, had a full time job when he came
to me. He worked with me on his days off. I had said that I would teachhim,
but that I was not interested in hiring him. He took my offer.

One who does not keep asking if it is done
yet. One who does not just do the minimum assigned. One who devises new
learning experiences for him or herself and will keep doing that after
leaving school.


Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com






  #28  
Old January 27th 06, 04:09 AM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
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Posts: n/a
Default So, here's the (hopefully) next topic of debate


Well, when I'm paying the professional several hundreds of dollars for the
valuable time so that they can teach me a technique I expect to be able to
ask them a questions, no matter how stupid or simplistic they feel it is.
I don't expect to get something for nothing but if you're going to be a
teacher of a craft stupid questions (no matter how many times you've been
asked and answered in the past) are part and parcel of the teaching
profession.

Being a newbie, myself, I am quite adept of finding my own answers,
researching for the solutions to my own problems, and I'm not scared to
make mistakes (my best learning devices) and basically taking care of
myself. However, I will go to my instructors when I've exhausted my
skills and abilities and ask them to help me out. That's what they are
being paid for - If I can't ask them questions (no matter how trite or
stupid they might think they are) the why am I paying them several of
thousands of dollars to have access to expertise? My time as an jewelry
artist might not be as valuable as theirs - but I can sure bet you my time
in my profession is just as valuable (seeing how part of it goes to paying
them their salary).

I don't ask for free advice. However, I'm willing to pay for it.



So you want to know where did the seasoned veterans get their answers?
the answer is
the same place and way as newbies have to get them today.

Also I dont see the problem of ignorance as something to be erradicated.
I dont owe the world a living nor does the world owe me one
If anythig has been done before then the knowhow is out there for the
finding. Looking at this in detail,
1. they went to jewellry school wherever that might be,
or2.
they did a PROPER search for the knowhow they wanted to find out about
or3,
they served a proper apprenticeship with a master,
the thouble with most folks to day, is there not taught how to think,
or to put it bluntly
the dont know how to ask the right questions.

Jewellery is just one skill set like many other.
yiou can read it up till you look like a jeweller, but
till you have practiced the skills and mastered the techniques by
trial as well as error, you wont get anywhere.

whats so annoying to us veterans is the newbe that is too lazy to do
the simplest of his her own research and expects us to tell them how to
do the simplest of tasks that 5 mins of research in a book will give the
answer.
Its presumtious of the newbe to expect someone whos time is worth many
times more than the newbe.s to deal with trivial requests.
were professionals, like others,whose time can be worth many hundres of
dollars an hour.
would you expect your lawyer, accountaht, doctor dentist or other
professional to give his time to someone thats thinks the world owes
them the knowhow?
No,
ive written this before here a no of times.
If you can show that youve made an effort to find out and due to
whatever circumstances you havnt, then most of us will be happy to
point you in the right direction.
and to comment on the original posting in this thread,
So bored?
What you write shows how and what you think.







  #29  
Old January 27th 06, 04:09 AM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default So, here's the (hopefully) next topic of debate

Abrasha:

When you respond to questions like it's real easy for me to respect your
opinion. I already respect your training and talent. Thank you for the
thoughtful and informative response.

M. Hughes


  #30  
Old January 27th 06, 04:09 AM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
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Posts: n/a
Default So, here's the (hopefully) next topic of debate

Abrasha wrote:


Take a look at the
work of Steven Lindsay, one of the finest hand engravers in the US today. Look
at his work and tell me that it doesn't make your mouth drop. His siteis at
http://www.lindsayengraving.com/index.html And the love and respect hehas for
his tools is also awe inspiring. Take a took at his shop at
http://www.lindsayengraving.com/tour/index.html He also maintains a site at
http://www.EngravingSchool.com/, which is devoted to the teaching of hand
engraving. This site has a great links page.


Those first two links are wrong. My apologies for not checking before posting.
They should be

http://www.lindsayengraving.com/ and
http://www.lindsayengraving.com/tour/

both without the "index.html"

Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com

 




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