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  #21  
Old July 6th 04, 10:17 AM
Abrasha
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Jack Schmidling wrote:

"Abrasha" wrote in message
...
Jack Schmidling wrote:


I retired a millionare many times over at age 40.


And your point is?


I was accused of not knowing my depth,


It is painfully obvious that you do not know your depth. After all, you are
trying to approach this project with a "soldering iron"!?!

ROTFLMAO!

Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com
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  #22  
Old July 6th 04, 10:50 AM
Peter W. Rowe
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On Tue, 06 Jul 2004 02:17:14 -0700, in àô Jack Schmidling wrote:


I have ordered a micro torch and some solder pastes and will try that this
week. I am still a bit agast at actually welding these things without
making a complete mess. It just never occurred to me that silver solder
would not be adequate.


Jack, lets start with some basic definitions, which may be of use. jewelers and
silversmiths use a different set of meanings to the word solder than does the
plumbing or welding industry. They talk about tin or lead based, low melting
alloys, as solder. We call that stuff either soft solder, or lead solder or tin
solder, but not just solder. And normally, when we refer to it at all, it's in
derogatory terms if we're feeling high on our horses, or more sanely, we refer
to it reluctantly when it needs to be used, which we usually try to avoid doing
if at all possible. The already discussed reasons include poor color match,
(and greater difficulty electroplating if that's to be done), and much lower
bond strengths. At the melting point of these soft solders, there is virtually
no real penetration of the surface by the solder, so the joint amounts to an
intimate wetting, much the same as glues. the main advantage over glues are
metallic nature, which means the joining metal will withstand some distortion,
which glues usually do not. Use of these solders is normally limited to repair
of very heat sensative or fragile items, or electroplated items where greater
heat would damage the pieces. These things normally melt at around 400 F,
though some, such as the TIX brand, which also is a bit stronger than some, and
pricier too, melts below 300.

As a general rule, when jewelers talk about soldering, we're talking about the
process the welding industry calls brazing. when we talk about silver solders,
we're NOT talking about the silver bearing but basically tin alloys you're
discussing. These are similar to, and lumped with, other low melting soft
solders, and offer only slightly advantages over simple plumbers solder or
electronics tin/lead solders. Mostly, they resist turning dull and tarnished
better. But we don't generally call then silver solders, since they don't
actually contain all that much silver.

Our silver solders, like our gold solders, are alloys of primarily precious
metal. our silver solders are mostly silver, with variable amounts of copper,
and in the lower melting grades, a little bit of zinc. These generally melt at
temperatures between 1000F and 1500F, depending on the type, and you always need
a torch, or similar higher temperature heat source. There are very many
jewelers who do not even own, and would not be caught dead holding, a soldeirng
iron.

These silver solders, or gold solders for that metal, work very differently from
the tin based alloys. In addition to wetting the surfaces being bonded, they
diffuse into them, causing a bond zone around the mating surfaces, rather than a
sharp distinct boundary between solder and part. The strength of the joints
achieved this way aproaches or equals the strength of the parent metal when it's
done properly, and the appearance of the joints also matches that of the parent
metal. When done correctly, only the geometry of the work, which may simply
demand that two pieces of metal were joined rather than just one piece of metal
being shaped, may indicate that there is indeed a solder joint.

Faced with the need to attach findings to an existing sterling cup or chalice,
we might explore means other than silver or gold soldering, if the piece was
already plated, or otherwise could not stand heating of this type. In those
cases, perhaps the soft solders would be appropriate, but rest assured we'd
think long and hard about using them, and would generally do so only if other
means were not available. One option I'd mention would be to silver solder
(braze) a couple short and substantial wires to the back of the findings (or for
a round stone, perhaps just one) , drill matching holes though the cup, insert
the wire, and carefully peen the protruding end on the inside, forming a rivet.
If this is done well, it can be almost invisible, and a liquid tight joint.
"cold joining" like this can avoid some of the problems with heating that some
items might experience. it DOES take some practice to get good clean strong
rivets that also look good, but it's perhaps slightly easier than proper
soldering, and can produce a good strong joint if the metal you're attaching too
has sufficient thickness to support the rivet.

The only jewelry thing I have attempted was to solder a cab finding onto a
ring. I used electronic type silver 5%? solder and gave up on the iron
because I could not control things. I used a garden variety propane torch
and got the job done but it's pretty much a mess. I gold plated it and it
looks good enough for my grandson who supplied the rock from which we made
the cab.


right tool, but probably poor technique. Control the process by using the
smallest possible torch flame. Turn the bezel or finding over, and after filing
or sanding it to rough it up, place flux and tiny bits of the solder on the
mating surface. Gently heat the piece till this just flows, coviering only the
back portions to be attached. Now carefully place on position on the ring (or
chalice), add more flux (use the liquid acid based fluxes, not electronics
rosin type) and heat the second part just until the two 'sweat" together. The
trick is not using any more than needed to get a good joint.



As mentioned, I had no intention of making this thing from scratch but my
appetite is now wheted to the point that I might begin to consider this.


This can be a satisfying craft, but understand that you need some specialized
equipment. This type of work is generally done in one of two ways. The
"industrial approach uses a specialized lathe called a spinning lathe, which
you use to force, while spinning, a disk of metal to conform to a "chuck",
usually wood. Industry makes a lot of cookware this way on large commercial
versions, but hand work versions of such lathes can be had. They need to be
large, heavy and are fairly costly, but I suspect you could swing it without
difficulty if you wanted. It's good for making multiples, once you've learned
how to do it (not that easy), and have build the sets of requipred chucks and
formers.

The second, and more traditional type of forming of this type is called
'raising". It amounts to just precise hammer of a disk of sheet metal over a
former, called a stake. With time, repeated annealings (except with pewter),
and until you get good at it, a tired and sore arm, you can form the metal into
just about any compex three dimensional form you might wish. You'll need at
least a few specialized raising hammers, and some raising stakes. And a good
sturdy vise to hold them. This is easier to learn from a real person, but some
good books exist. Seitz and Fiengold (I think that's the spelling) are the
authors of one simply called "silversmithing". A very good book on the subject.
Somewhat simpler and cheaper, but also good, is Murrey Bovin's "silversmithing
and art metal". And there are others.

Peter
  #23  
Old July 6th 04, 04:03 PM
Jack Schmidling
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"Abrasha"

I retired a millionare many times over at age 40.

And your point is?


I was accused of not knowing my depth,


It is painfully obvious that you do not know your depth. After all, you

are
trying to approach this project with a "soldering iron"!?!


It is painfully obvious that you are looking for a fight and I am getting
bored.

One last try.... siting my personal history is my standard response to
people who seem to think I have less than a full deck. I retired at age 40
as a result of my genius, intrepidity and ability to do whatever I choose to
do. You choose not to understand this obvious association no doubt because
you had to or will have to work all your life.

ROTFLMAO!


Whatever that means is wasted on me.

I hereby declare that I won the war and your further rants will be ignored.

js


--
PHOTO OF THE WEEK: http://schmidling.netfirms.com/weekly.htm
Astronomy, Beer, Cheese, Gems, Sausage, http://schmidling.netfirms.com







Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com



  #24  
Old July 7th 04, 02:38 AM
Don T
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Yep. Sure does. What the heck though. The guy retired before 40 and is a
millionaire so why does he need to ask anybody for any kind of help at all?
If he invested properly he can buy all the soldering tutors he needs.

Otherwise he can go to:

http://www.ganoksin.com/borisat/dire...ary/subject/24

type in "soldering" in the library search box, and get there that way. Just
like us real ****-ignorant rubes that will end up working all our lives have
to do it if we think we might want to learn something on our own.

--

Don Thompson

~~~~~~~~

"Abrasha" wrote in message
...
Don T wrote:

Send him he

http://www.ganoksin.com/server-cgi-bin/iglimpse

--

Don Thompson


When this suggestion is followed, this is the result:

Glimpse Archive not found
Cannot find script "" in config file /usr/local/etc/httpd/wwwlib/amgr.cfg

Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com


  #25  
Old July 7th 04, 08:25 AM
NE333RO
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It is painfully obvious that you are looking for a fight and I am getting
bored.


A better attitude would elicit better responses.

One last try.... siting my personal history is my standard response to
people who seem to think I have less than a full deck.


I don't think you're nuts, just pompous. That kind of attitude seldom gets
an outpouring of help. You're actually rather fortunate this is a moderated
newsgroup.

I retired at age 40
as a result of my genius, intrepidity and ability to do whatever I choose to
do. You choose not to understand this obvious association no doubt because
you had to or will have to work all your life.


Well then, it's quite obvious you don't need help from us peons. My
sugestion would be a google search.

ROTFLMAO!


Whatever that means is wasted on me.


Obviously. It means rolling on the floor laughing my ass off. He thinks
you're funny.

I hereby declare that I won the war and your further rants will be ignored.


Actually, my guess is, the above statements have lost you the war. That is
if the war involves getting information. I could be wrong however. Our
moderator is a very nice guy.
  #26  
Old July 7th 04, 08:25 AM
Abrasha
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Default

Jack Schmidling wrote:


One last try.... siting my personal history is my standard response to
people who seem to think I have less than a full deck.


Oh, you are playing with a full deck allright. It just seems that your elevator
doesn't go all the way to the top, and your belt doesn't go through all the belt
loops.


I hereby declare that I won the war and your further rants will be ignored.


Cute.

Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com
  #27  
Old July 7th 04, 03:51 PM
Jack Schmidling
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In spite of the flack, I have aquired a good deal of useful information here
but I am really hung up on the criticism of soft solder.

The electronics industry has used this process for attaching components to
circuit boards for over a half a century and in my experience, parts falling
off has never been a significant factor in the mean time between failure.
They simply do not fail this way.

One of my products was used to gather data in a drop
test at McDonald Aircraft.. an F4 was dropped from a crane 50 feet to the
hanger floor and this data aquisition system never missed a bit.

Look at the consumer products and how they are abused and still work. How
can this possibly compare to my chalice being displayed on the mantle piece?

Granted most electronic components are pretty small but not all. Large
capacitors, relays, and many other mega carat components are soldered on and
make it to Saturn and points farther.

js


--
PHOTO OF THE WEEK: http://schmidling.netfirms.com/weekly.htm
Astronomy, Beer, Cheese, Gems, Sausage, http://schmidling.netfirms.com









  #28  
Old July 7th 04, 04:06 PM
Peter W. Rowe
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On Wed, 07 Jul 2004 07:51:46 -0700, in ¤ô Jack Schmidling wrote:

In spite of the flack, I have aquired a good deal of useful information here
but I am really hung up on the criticism of soft solder.


Jack, you're correct that soft solders can work in terms of a mechanically
functional joint. but there are significant differences between jewelry
soldering needs and electronics soldering needs.

For one thing, in electronics, virtually all but the tiniest (surface mount)
componants use the solder more for the electrical connection, having established
a pretty decent mechanical connection first. Leads go through circuit board
holes, and often get bent away from the holes a bit. even without the bend, the
componants are mechanically held. In other cases, wires wrap around terminals,
or otherwise are mechanically held prior to being soldered. Also, in most
electronics soldering, there is a considerable excess of solder used. the
solder usually forms a mound over the joint. Plus, is often flows into a
complex shape, ie the hole in the circuit board, or around a wire, etc. This is
mechanically quite different from jewelry soldering where often one has a thin,
tight, capillary joint between only two small flat surfaces, and one desires no
solder outside of that seam to show. The soft solders are stronger in the
previous example, where the solder layer is substantially thicker. Indeed,
jewelry findings made especially for soft soldering are usually made with a
hollowed out pad that gets filled with a small puddle of the solder, and this is
then applied to the work, so the joint, while it appears capillary to the eye,
actually consists of a considerably thicker mass of the solder.

But the main objections to soft soldering are aesthetic. The stuff just doesn't
match silver or gold, and as you observe, makes a mess. once used, one can no
longer use higher melting solders or repair methods, as at higher temps, even
traces of soft solder quickly etch deep holes in the precious metals. We
jewelers prefer to use methods, when we can, which give the best looking
results, give the strongest joints, and are as versatile as possilbe in terms of
letting ourselves, or the next repair jeweler, work on the piece if needed
without running into a time bomb. Soft solder does indeed have a place in
jewelry work, but it must be a carefully considered one, since it's use is often
less attractive, adaquate but still less strong, and subsequently more limiting
to later work, than the use of hard solders.

Note that much of the above applies mostly to work in silver or gold. The
moment you get into working on plated vessels, pewter, or some of the base
metals, there can often be much better reasons to use soft solder. With pewter,
it is in fact the fully correct solder to use unless you're actually welding the
stuff without solder at all. With plated or costume quality work, often the
work cannot withstand the temps of hard soldering without damage. In these
cases, sometimes the best result will be obtained by preparing the items to be
soldered by attaching a pad or footing, with hard solder, that can then provide
a more solid joint with soft solder.

Peter
  #29  
Old July 8th 04, 06:25 AM
Fred Mason
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Also check with local recreation departments which may offer course in
jewelry making.
Fred
"Leo" wrote in message
...
Jack - If you want some inexpensive hands on instruction, check out
www.lapidaryschoolo.org and www.folkschool.org

Otherwise, the first step to learning on your on is Tim McCreight's
book 'The Complete Metalsmith'.

Many community colleges, as well as major colleges & universities,
offer courses in jewelry making. You do not have to be a full time
student to take advantage of these courses.

Find a local rock club and join it. You would be surprised at the
talent and sharing of the members. Look at www.hgms.org

Leo aka Charlie

cfred at hal-pc dot org Yahoo address is a spam trap.


  #30  
Old July 8th 04, 06:25 AM
Ian Johnson
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Posts: n/a
Default

A little off topic... is there a way to remove soft solder? Years ago, I
found a Tiffany bud vase in a junk bin @ an antique store. The vase was in
terrible shape; it looked like a dog chewed on it & someone tried to "fix"
it with soft solder. I've been using a flat graver to get the bulk of the
solder off but was wondering if there's an easier approach.
thanks,
Ian
www.skylinesilver.com

"Peter W. Rowe" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 07 Jul 2004 07:51:46 -0700, in ¤ô Jack Schmidling

wrote:

In spite of the flack, I have aquired a good deal of useful information

here
but I am really hung up on the criticism of soft solder.


Jack, you're correct that soft solders can work in terms of a mechanically
functional joint. but there are significant differences between jewelry
soldering needs and electronics soldering needs.

For one thing, in electronics, virtually all but the tiniest (surface

mount)
componants use the solder more for the electrical connection, having

established
a pretty decent mechanical connection first. Leads go through circuit

board
holes, and often get bent away from the holes a bit. even without the

bend, the
componants are mechanically held. In other cases, wires wrap around

terminals,
or otherwise are mechanically held prior to being soldered. Also, in most
electronics soldering, there is a considerable excess of solder used. the
solder usually forms a mound over the joint. Plus, is often flows into a
complex shape, ie the hole in the circuit board, or around a wire, etc.

This is
mechanically quite different from jewelry soldering where often one has a

thin,
tight, capillary joint between only two small flat surfaces, and one

desires no
solder outside of that seam to show. The soft solders are stronger in the
previous example, where the solder layer is substantially thicker.

Indeed,
jewelry findings made especially for soft soldering are usually made with

a
hollowed out pad that gets filled with a small puddle of the solder, and

this is
then applied to the work, so the joint, while it appears capillary to the

eye,
actually consists of a considerably thicker mass of the solder.

But the main objections to soft soldering are aesthetic. The stuff just

doesn't
match silver or gold, and as you observe, makes a mess. once used, one

can no
longer use higher melting solders or repair methods, as at higher temps,

even
traces of soft solder quickly etch deep holes in the precious metals. We
jewelers prefer to use methods, when we can, which give the best looking
results, give the strongest joints, and are as versatile as possilbe in

terms of
letting ourselves, or the next repair jeweler, work on the piece if needed
without running into a time bomb. Soft solder does indeed have a place in
jewelry work, but it must be a carefully considered one, since it's use is

often
less attractive, adaquate but still less strong, and subsequently more

limiting
to later work, than the use of hard solders.

Note that much of the above applies mostly to work in silver or gold. The
moment you get into working on plated vessels, pewter, or some of the base
metals, there can often be much better reasons to use soft solder. With

pewter,
it is in fact the fully correct solder to use unless you're actually

welding the
stuff without solder at all. With plated or costume quality work, often

the
work cannot withstand the temps of hard soldering without damage. In

these
cases, sometimes the best result will be obtained by preparing the items

to be
soldered by attaching a pad or footing, with hard solder, that can then

provide
a more solid joint with soft solder.

Peter



 




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