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  #11  
Old July 5th 04, 09:18 AM
Abrasha
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"ted.ffrater" wrote:

Is there anything Peter? or Abrasha? ive left out? to show this guy the
size of the mountain he plans to climb??



Well, the only thing I can think of, is that if they would have had Crazy Glue
in the Middle Ages, stone setting would never have been developed.

Other than that, I don't think I could have said it better myself. Neither
could Peter, although he would have taken about half a dozen more paragraphs to
say it.

And I would have been more blunt, and Peter would have been more tactful.

Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com
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  #12  
Old July 5th 04, 09:18 AM
Abrasha
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Jack Schmidling wrote:


I retired a millionare many times over at age 40.


And your point is?

Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com
  #13  
Old July 5th 04, 09:18 AM
Abrasha
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Don T wrote:

Send him he

http://www.ganoksin.com/server-cgi-bin/iglimpse

--

Don Thompson


When this suggestion is followed, this is the result:

Glimpse Archive not found
Cannot find script "" in config file /usr/local/etc/httpd/wwwlib/amgr.cfg

Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com
  #14  
Old July 5th 04, 09:30 AM
Peter W. Rowe
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On Mon, 05 Jul 2004 07:48:10 GMT, in rec.crafts.jewelry "ted.ffrater"
wrote:

I do stand by my comments tho , about Jack's plans to make a silver
chalice decorated with set stones.
All one can go on in any comment I make is the writers written word,,
so when its said the plan is to set the stones with a torch one has to
assume thats what the enquirer wants to do.


I suspect, Ted, you misinterpreted the original question. First, he wasn't
asking us how to make the chalice itself. Just about how to attach his stones.
And the question wasn't about soldering stones themselves to the chalice, but
about soldering the findings, heads or bezels, etc. Looked at that way, it's a
little less clueless sounding, and more along the lines of a question one might
reasonably try to answer, I'd think.

Your comment that a student 2 months into a course could do it is true
also, however it implies that there is a teacher to point the student in
the right direction and that the premises where the teaching /learning
takes place has the correct equipment to do what the student aspires to
make.
Jack on the otherhand is presumably working from home, without the
benefit of a master to guide him so he faces the difficulty of finding
out himself the following.


So it may take him longer or a few more tries. My observations with adults
who've achieved some success with other do it yourself hobbies or professions
(as Jack's web site strongly suggests) are less timid, and quicker to learn from
their own mistakes than the aformentioned sophomores, who as often as not, are
still barely beyond the stage of trying to figure out which end of the pliers to
hold onto. I would be far more confident that someone like Jack could take the
needed info from a discussion group post, and put it to good use, than less
confident or experienced hobbyists, even if his experience isn't directly in
precious metal working.

I ll stand up and be counted on the point that its going to be really
difficult for Jack to get the results he wants without a lot of research
,experimentation, and technical exenditure on his part. I can assure you
both Its nothing personal.


I don't disupute that point, but i'd remind you that this is his intention,
perhaps, and much of the quest is in his control. For example, he's totally in
control of the design, not needing to make his chalice conform to anyones
definition thereof beyond his own. That opens much opportunity that doesn't
exist when someone with more training feels a chalice must conform to some
certain design types. And i'd also suggest that if indeed the task he's trying
is too much to expect, the way to show this is with detailed information on what
he needs to do, or pointers to that info. It's then easy for him to decide
whether or not the task is too much. If we here in the list just go "tut tut,
you'll never manage that", then we've taken the decision away from him, which
isnt' appropriate in this case. Were I teaching a class, and some student
tried to bite off more of a task than they were prepared for, I'd certainly try
to steer them in a more manageable task. But this isn't a classroom. It's not
for us to judge what a poster may or may not be capable of.

Peter
  #15  
Old July 5th 04, 07:16 PM
Jack Schmidling
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"Abrasha" wrote in message
...
Jack Schmidling wrote:


I retired a millionare many times over at age 40.


And your point is?


I was accused of not knowing my depth, i.e., over my head with a torch in my
hand.
..................


"Abrasha"

Well, the only thing I can think of, is that if they would have had Crazy

Glue
in the Middle Ages, stone setting would never have been developed.

Other than that, I don't think I could have said it better myself.


Except that the second sentence contradicts the first.


js


--
PHOTO OF THE WEEK: http://schmidling.netfirms.com/weekly.htm
Astronomy, Beer, Cheese, Gems, Sausage, http://schmidling.netfirms.com





  #16  
Old July 5th 04, 07:16 PM
Jack Schmidling
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"ted.ffrater"

Your right, of course, im from the old school of European precious metal
working ,but I like to think im honest with it even if it upsets some of
the people some of the time....


Very little upsets me but that is not to say that I don't rise to the
challenge when at the receiving end of gratuitous put downs.

I do stand by my comments tho , about Jack's plans to make a silver
chalice decorated with set stones....


Apparently the old school was short on reading comprehension instructions.
I never said nor implied that I planned to make a silver chalice.

All one can go on in any comment I make is the writers written word,,
so when its said the plan is to set the stones with a torch one has to
assume thats what the enquirer wants to do....


So where in the "written word" did you find making the chalice?

I know Peter called your attention to the creative editing but have read
several pages of yours based on it, I could not resist a few lines of my
own.

As I expected, most of what I needed to know can be learned in a few
paragraphs.

And for what it's worth, it is entirely too easy to write books these days
and I quit buying this sort of instructional book when I learned that most
of them are junk and/or do not answer the questions that I have. I live in
the boondocks and a good library or book store is an hours drive at least so
I have really come to depend on this blessing from Al Gore.

js


--
PHOTO OF THE WEEK: http://schmidling.netfirms.com/weekly.htm
Astronomy, Beer, Cheese, Gems, Sausage, http://schmidling.netfirms.com





  #17  
Old July 5th 04, 09:33 PM
ted.ffrater
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Well, were into the 17th post!on this soldering scenario and we now
know at last a bit more about Jacks plans and his results so far.
so something constructive can now be suggested.
Jack has to decide wether to do whats needed to repair and finish the
pewter cup or to scrap it and start again.
Looking at the 1st option is there anychance for a picture of where your
at? and where the melted through part is?
Then We can suggest the best way to repair the overheating damage
and continue with the making of this item
the 2nd option , starting again ,in my view will be the easier path in
the long run. I would suggest making it in copper, soft ie lead soldered
with the whole object silverplated after all the soldering and
polishing has been done assuming thats the colour Jack wants.
Copper will solder easily and with due attention ot the design of the
stone mounts, be plenty strong enough for a normal chalice use.
Once wehave some more info well go into the best way to put Jacks
design together.

Jack Schmidling wrote:
"Peter W. Rowe"


Ted's post does have some good starting points....



As a probably unintended point, I was not even aware of the term holloware
so that enhanced my search greatly.


But I'll disagree with him that it's so hard to learn.



There is the old joke about rocket science and sausage making. It's all
sausage making if you know how to do it.


Please don't consider using any solder that melts low enough for an


iron.....

Perhaps, I have a reason that did not occur even to me as I get into this.

I can not find and am not ready to make a silver chalice of the sort I want
at a price that I can justify, at least for a practice piece. So, I am sort
of forced to consider plated brass or some other material.

From my experience so far with a plated pewter cup, the silver beads up and
the finding melted half way through the cup before I realized what was
happening. I was using a torch that was too big for the job and thought the
material was brass.

It now seems intuitive that I will have to use low temp solder, make a mess
and gold plate the finished cup.


Even the silver bearing ones are just not good strong joints.....



From my experience with solder, one would have to get rather violent to
knock off a finding soldered this way. Surely, it or the stone would be
damaged before the joint would fail and it's gotta be better than super
glue.


Even with these solders, you'll have the best luch using a small torch to


put the pieces

on.to the goblet.



Well, that is the way I am headed but one of my unasked questions is dealing
with the problem of heating only the area to be soldered so all the previous
joints don't fall off. I noticed in a McMaster catalog some sort of heat
sink paste that I guess I could surround the setting with. Is this a
useful approach?


One web site you can go to for some reasearch is the Ganoksin.com


site.....

Been there.


the home of the Orchid mail list, a far busier discussion site for jewelry
makers........



Didn't notice the list.


And if you like feel free to contact me via private email for any


additional

pointers or questions you might run into. I'll be happy to help you


figure this

out.



Thanks but I presume aside from Ted, there might be other beginners
interested in the discussion.


By the way, your web site is inspiring indeed. How do you find the time


for

quite so many projects and interests?



That's one of the reasons I "retired" at age 40. I don't have time for a
real job.

js


  #18  
Old July 6th 04, 04:59 AM
NE333RO
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I have been spending hours for years answering random questions on science
and astronomy to readers all over the world. The only people I treat as you
have treated me are students who are obviously too lazy to write a paper and
expect me to do it for them. I usually refer them to the library because
that is the way children learn how to learn.


Or those who already know it all.

I am not a child learning how to learn. The internet is a fantastic
resource that nearly makes libraries and encyclopedias obsolete for an
educated adult.


The project you are attempting is not something that is learned from the
internet. Oh, that doesn't mean that it's totally impossible, it just means
that the time involved, the cost, and the frustration level, will probably put
a quick end to the project. Unfinished. It will also probably have us answering
innumerable questions, with you still not ending up with a desirable end
product. You don't have the basics needed.

If you are too lazy to answer my questions, don't bother with the lecture
and don't bother pleading for others to back you up.


There was some usable advice there. Take what you think you can use,
disregard the rest. You are making an awful lot of rules, for someone asking
for help.

I retired a millionare many times over at age 40. You may rest assured I
know my depth and how to swim.


The fact that you are attempting this with a soldering iron gives lie to
you knowing your depth. At least in this particular project. Not sure what the
millionare part has to do with anything.

There are literally billions of web sites that offer info on just about
anything on earth.


And none of it replaces hands on training, with someone standing behind
you, pointing out how to do things correctly/easier. This project in
particular, is an advanced project. Even without making the chalise. You will
have serious issues with the metal you are planning to work in, the
cleanliness, the solder, the flux, keeping things from falling off while
soldering on other things, finishing the final project, and about 20 or 30 more
issues.

All I asked for was some help finding something in this
field.


And he offered you some good advice, if a bit "short". Your lucky it wasn't
Abrasha. It may not have been what you wanted to hear, but that doesn't make it
bad advice.

I did not ask you anything and do not appreciate such answers.


Well, actually, you did ask him something. As far as appreciation goes,
I've seen little appreciation from you for any answers. Lots of attitude
though.

If
no such web site exists, I will buy books and persue other avenues but you
are no help at all and certainly no asset to this group.


Said with what, two weeks of experience?
  #19  
Old July 6th 04, 10:17 AM
Jack Schmidling
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"ted.ffrater"

Jack has to decide wether to do whats needed to repair and finish the
pewter cup or to scrap it and start again.
Looking at the 1st option is there anychance for a picture of where your
at? and where the melted through part is?


I hate to be rude but again, you are off on a tangent because you are not
reading what I am writing.

The pewter piece is a piece of junk upon which I am trying different solder
techniques.

The only real piece I have is still just a practice piece because I have
not yet found the cup I really like. It seems to be silverplated brass and
thus far I have only used super glue to attach the silver findings for the
stones. So far 2 of them have fallen off with only slight jars so that is
not a real solution.

I have ordered a micro torch and some solder pastes and will try that this
week. I am still a bit agast at actually welding these things without
making a complete mess. It just never occurred to me that silver solder
would not be adequate.

The only jewelry thing I have attempted was to solder a cab finding onto a
ring. I used electronic type silver 5%? solder and gave up on the iron
because I could not control things. I used a garden variety propane torch
and got the job done but it's pretty much a mess. I gold plated it and it
looks good enough for my grandson who supplied the rock from which we made
the cab.

the 2nd option , starting again ,in my view will be the easier path in
the long run. I would suggest making it in copper.....


As pointed out, I had no intention of making the chalice. I have been
bidding for items on Ebay and have two, a bunch on the way but not yet what
I want. I found a very large brandy snifter but the stem is too short. I
bought it assuming if all else fails, I can cut off the cup and attach a
stem and base from another cup or possibly make this much myself.

Once wehave some more info well go into the best way to put Jacks
design together.


As mentioned, I had no intention of making this thing from scratch but my
appetite is now wheted to the point that I might begin to consider this. I
certainly admit that this is currently over my head and not sure I want to
get into it if I can find what I want. I really enjoy faceting gems and
making cabs but sheet metal work has never been high on my list of crafts to
learn, especially for a one shot project.

So there is a little more background,

js


--
PHOTO OF THE WEEK: http://schmidling.netfirms.com/weekly.htm
Astronomy, Beer, Cheese, Gems, Sausage, http://schmidling.netfirms.com



  #20  
Old July 6th 04, 10:17 AM
Abrasha
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Jack Schmidling wrote:

"Abrasha" wrote in message
...
Jack Schmidling wrote:


I retired a millionare many times over at age 40.


And your point is?


I was accused of not knowing my depth, i.e., over my head with a torch in my
hand.
.................


So? What does that have to do with the fact that you retired a millionaire many
times over? I still don't get your point.

Are millionaires better at holding torches, especially if they reach that
milestone at age 40?

It sounds to me, that you are just a poor person who has a lot of money.

Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com
 




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