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I would like to make my own Sterling and Argentium Metals... Is this possible ?



 
 
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  #11  
Old March 4th 08, 08:30 PM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
William Black
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 77
Default I would like to make my own Sterling and Argentium Metals... Is this possible ?


"Jman" wrote in message
...


I looked into the price of sterling sheet and almost 'sheet' my pants
once I saw what the dealers wanted for those tiny sheets of silver.
With the prices they were asking for sterling, I figured I could put a
LOT of time and labour in to making my own. Especially seeing as how
inexpensively I bought my bars of fine silver !


The reason they charge all that money is because they have great big
expensive powered rolling mills and they pay people to use them. They also
cut to size for a very small fee.

I don't know what sort of machinery you need to produce silver discs 6" in
diameter with mirror polished sides, but I can't see it being cheap.

If all you have is a hand powered mill then you're going to have to do some
serious hard work to produce sliver sheet.

If you want to produce something more than 5" across you're going to need
some serious machinery as well.

What do you charge yourself for your own labour and how do you amortise your
outlay in production machinery?

--
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.




Ads
  #12  
Old March 4th 08, 08:30 PM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
William Black
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 77
Default I would like to make my own Sterling and Argentium Metals... Is this possible ?


"Peter W.. Rowe," wrote in message
...

Yes, good ones are. The cheapest little Chinese or Indian made ones start
around 250 or so, but these are good only for light duty work.


I've got one of the little Indian 3" mills.

It came with a shed load of different rollers and does just about everything
I've ever asked it to do.

Mind you, I only ever tried to make my own silver sheet once, it's far too
much like hard work...


--
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.




  #13  
Old March 4th 08, 08:30 PM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
Jman
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 130
Default I would like to make my own Sterling and Argentium Metals... Is this possible ?

On Mar 4, 1:54=A0am, "Peter W.. Rowe,"
wrote:
On Mon, 03 Mar 2008 23:00:31 -0800, in rec.crafts.jewelry Jman

wrote:
Looks like a graphite mould. =A0I suppose the graphite would help with
the oxidization wouldn't it ?


Ingots, 101

Graphite molds are usually "open faced". =A0They produce a shape like a li=

ttle
loaf of bread, or a similar block with a convex irregular top surface. =A0=

That's
quite difficult to directly turn into sheet metal. =A0Fine for making litt=

le
ingots which you just wish to store or something, but impractical for maki=

ng
wire or sheet metal.

Also, pouring into a graphite mold, especially the small ones, is hard to =

get
uniform metal because the graphite is an extraordinarily good heat sink. =

=A0The
metal freezes almost on contact with it. =A0The more commonly used cast ir=

on or
steel molds don't chill the metal so fast, so you get a more even pour. =

=A0They
are normally used with a film of soot or oil, both of which make the surfa=

ce
"reducing" and non-stick in nature, so the metal is not oxidized by contac=

t with
the mold. =A0Even without treatment, any mold surface like this will chill=

the
metal quickly enough, as well as not allowing oxygen to contact the surfac=

e
where it touches the mold, so oxidation next to the mold isn't an issue. =

=A0Ingots
poured into steel molds, like those poured into graphite ones, often come =

out
bright and clean. =A0The main advantage to the graphite molds is that meta=

l
doesn't stick at all, and they require no pretreatment.

Wire is commonly made by pouring a long rod shaped ingot, rolling this thr=

ough
grooved rollers to reduce it's size down to a manageable size, and then fu=

rther
shaped and reduced by pulling through drawplates. =A0As Ted's post mention=

ed, if
you've got a big and powerful enough drawbench, you can eliminate the init=

ial
rolling stage for wire, but most people making wire start with a wire roll=

ing
mill. Either way, the ingot to use needs to start out as a long rod shape.=

There
are two types of ingot mold used. =A0For small ingots, one can get a steel=


vertical mold that amounts to two plates clamped together with holes drill=

ed
down along the boundry between them. =A0metal poured into the holes can be=

removed
when the plates are seperated, yielding a round bar. =A0The same molds als=

o often
have another side which can produce a flat sided plate. =A0That type of mo=

ld,
called a sliding ingot mold because the width is adjustable, can be set so=

the
flat plate is the same width as it's depth, effectively yeilding a bar wit=

h
square cross section. =A0 This too can be worked into wire. =A0In both cas=

es, these
ingots are limited in legth to the height of the ingot mold, which is usua=

lly
four or five inches or so, meaning it's good for small ingots. =A0For long=

er bars,
one uses an open faced mold which amounts to a long milled groove in a ste=

el
bar. =A0Metal is poured into that groove, runs down it, and solidifies int=

o a long
bar shape. =A0These are less uniform than the first type, and can be a bit=

more
troublesome to roll or otherwise process into wire, especially with alloys=

like
silver where the top exposed surface of the bar during pouring is not only=


irregular in thickness, but often quite oxidized. =A0Still, it works.

Sheet metal, as suggested above, is made from flat sided ingots which are
usually made in a few inches wide or more, and equally long, or more, depe=

nding
on the size of the mold used. =A0The thickness of the plates in most small=

molds
comes in between an 1/8th of an inch to a 1/4 or an inch or so. =A0These f=

lat
ingots may be irregular at one end, where the mold was open, but the rest =

of the
surfaces are nice and uniform if the pour was good, and these are then rol=

led
down to flat sheet in the rolling mill. =A0Without a rolling mill, you can=

do it
the old and slow way. =A0Forging with a hammer. =A0That takes skill, large=

muscles,
lots of endurance, and a lot of time. =A0But it does offer you the chance =

to make
sheet metal that varies in thickness from one part of the sheet to another=

.. =A0Not
normally useful for jewelry, it's valuable for some metalworkers, such as =

those
making medeival style armor...

Large industrial producers of sheet metal don't use these small molds. =A0=

Instead,
they cast ingots that look more like the public image, ie a brick shaped b=

lock.
These then go to a milling machine where the raw faces of the ingot are mi=

lled
off to produce a machined square and flat sided uniform block of metal. =

=A0These
then can be rolled down into quite large sizes of sheet metal in industria=

l
sized rolling mills.

The Rolling machine looks pretty expensive.


Yes, good ones are. =A0The cheapest little Chinese or Indian made ones sta=

rt
around 250 or so, but these are good only for light duty work. =A0If you'r=

e
planning on rolling a lot of sheet metal, especially in anything other tha=

n
quite small sizes, expect to pay upwards of a thousand for a good, larger =

sized
flat rolling mill. =A0And by larger size, I mean four or five inches wide.=

=A0More
than that ups the price a lot more, very quickly. =A0about the widest avai=

lable
hand powered flat rolling mill I've seen is around six inches wide, and mo=

st
such mills are more like 5 inches wide. =A0For most craftspeople making je=

welry,
this is quite enough (even the much smaller ones are enough for most jewel=

ers).
But silversmiths often like to work with larger sheets of silver, up to a =

foot
wide, sometimes more. =A0That's pretty much the realm of the big industria=

l sized
power driven rolling mills. =A0And yes, those are costly. =A0Usually way o=

ut of the
reach of any individual craftsman, though sometimes you'll see a very used=

one
in surplus sales somewhere...

cheers

Peter


Great Information Peter, Thanks for that !

It's pretty obvious now that there is waaaay more to it than I
thought. I had no idea that getting a good enough sheet to work with,
would be so troublesome, but I guess it stands to reason. I think I'd
honestly be better off just buying the sheet that I needed and casting
odd ingots and such for more 'decorative purposes'. I must say,..I do
like the idea of pounding the living hell out of some silver
though.... I have a few large anvils and a bunch of metal working
hammers that would might be fun to work with in conjuction with the
Oxy/Ace, Oxy/Pro setup ! Perhaps I could mix it in with some other
metals (ingots) and produce some different colored metals to use with
some enamel..... (Hmmmm, the wheels they be turning..)

Thanks for all the great advice,

Cheers,

/FC..
  #14  
Old March 4th 08, 08:31 PM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
mbstevens
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 165
Default I would like to make my own Sterling and Argentium Metals... Is this possible ?

Jman wrote:

- If I were to add more silver and less copper to the melt, would that
help much with the tarnishing, or would I be better off just merely
melting the fine silver and using that instead ?


Fine silver is indeed used by many art jewelers.
It does tarnish more slowly, but must used in chunkier pieces
because it is softer.

Fine silver is also used by enamelists because it does
not tend to discolor the melting glass, and because it gives a bright
reflective background.


- Any suggestions as to a good source for producing ones own silver /
gold etc... ?


Midgette's little book "Mokume Gane in the Small Shop"
has detailed information on ingoting and rolling out
metals, even though it is not particularly about sterling.


  #15  
Old March 4th 08, 08:31 PM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
Abrasha
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 298
Default I would like to make my own Sterling and Argentium Metals... Is this possible ?

Peter W.. Rowe, wrote:


The Rolling machine looks pretty expensive.


Yes, good ones are. The cheapest little Chinese or Indian made ones start
around 250 or so, but these are good only for light duty work. If you're
planning on rolling a lot of sheet metal, especially in anything other than
quite small sizes, expect to pay upwards of a thousand for a good, larger sized
flat rolling mill.



One of my teachers told me: "I don't buy cheap cheap tools. I can't
afford them. They are too expensive."

--
Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com
  #16  
Old March 4th 08, 08:31 PM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
Abrasha
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 298
Default I would like to make my own Sterling and Argentium Metals... Is this possible ?

Jman wrote:
I currently possess a large number of pure silver bars (500 oz's) and
a LOT of pure copper. Can I combine (using a proper scale) the proper
weights and make my own Jewellry grade silver in a crucible ? I've
seen many a link where this is being done, but I have never spoken
with anyone who has "Actually done it".


Making your own "good" Sterling Silver, in a setup that is not a
professional setup, is extremely difficult if not impossible to achieve.
I have done it, and will never do it again. In over 30 years I have
never been able to make a decent sterling silver ingot.

The main reason for this, is that right at the melting point of silver,
it's ability to absorb oxygen rises almost twenty fold. In German this
is called "Sauerstoffaufnahmefaehigkeit". Oxygen will get trapped
inside the alloy, which will manifest itself as so called "Blausilber"
(Blueish spots under the surface of the ingot), which can only be
removed mechanically. Unfortunately with simple hand held crucibles,
and without protective gas to keep oxygen out of the melt, is is
practically impossible to prevent these spots from forming.

If you have access to "Theory and Practice of Goldsmithing" by Erhard
Brepohl, you can read about this phenomenon.
(http://tinyurl.com/28vhjq). It's a very good buy. It was translated
from the German by my friend Charles Lewton-Brain. I had to study it
in school. Some time ago, I put the graph relating to this on my web
site, when this issue came up in the ng.

Is the process more difficult than it looks ?


Yes. It is almost impossible to achieve good results.

Is making a strip sheet
of sterling or argentium even possible without foundry type tools ?


You'll be able to make a strip of silver of extremely poor quality.


Are there other metals that one can produce in a shop environment ?


High karat gold ingots, 18K and up, are a great deal easier to produce.
Although top quality is again practically impossible in a simple shop
environment. Here the problem is usually air bubbles inside the ingot,
in "inconvenient" places. Read, usually smack in the middle of the
ingot, and therefore in the middle of a piece of sheet, once it is
rolled out. Very annoying. I made all my own gold alloys for well over
20 years. I no longer do this. I like working with perfect sheet.

--
Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com
  #17  
Old March 4th 08, 08:31 PM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
Séimí mac Liam
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 48
Default I would like to make my own Sterling and Argentium Metals... Is this possible ?

"Peter W.. Rowe," wrote in
:

On Mon, 03 Mar 2008 23:01:04 -0800, in rec.crafts.jewelry "Séimí mac
Liam" wrote:


Peter, an information on whether the specific alloy used in
'Argentium' is or can be patented, copyrighted, trademarked other
than if used in conjuction with the trademarked name Argentium?


I assume you meant "any information..." in order to make it a
question...

The answer is no, I don't know the exact details. Only that the alloy
was developed by one specific firm, and any others who distribute it
are licensed or something by them, to do so. I don't know whether
only the name is trademarked or whether the alloy itself is patented
or what. There are a number of silver alloys sold as fire-scale free
or anti-oxidation versions of sterling, by a number of companies.
Each seems a bit different from the others. One of the first of them
is the fire stain free sterling marketed by United Precious Metals.
It too is proprietary, according to their web site. Argentium is a
bit different in that it's made to quite specifically have the needs
of hand craftsmanship in mind, rather than being mainly intended as a
casting alloy (as the UPM versions is). More than that, I don't
know, since frankly, I do little enough work in silver that I'm happy
just using the old standard standby of traditional sterling. You
could search up the info as easily as I can. Either google the whole
net, or search the archives on Ganoksin for other more targetted info.

Peter


I just thought you might know.

--
Saint Séimí mac Liam
Carriagemaker to the court of Queen Maeve
Prophet of The Great Tagger
Canonized December '99

  #18  
Old March 4th 08, 10:31 PM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
William Black
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 77
Default I would like to make my own Sterling and Argentium Metals... Is this possible ?


"Abrasha" wrote in message
...
Peter W.. Rowe, wrote:


The Rolling machine looks pretty expensive.


Yes, good ones are. The cheapest little Chinese or Indian made ones
start
around 250 or so, but these are good only for light duty work. If you're
planning on rolling a lot of sheet metal, especially in anything other
than
quite small sizes, expect to pay upwards of a thousand for a good, larger
sized
flat rolling mill.



One of my teachers told me: "I don't buy cheap cheap tools. I can't
afford them. They are too expensive."


I'm inclined to agree with him.

But the Indian rolling mills are the product of an old UK factory that went
broke. The Indian company bought the factory and are making the things at a
reasonable price.

When I was setting up I couldn't afford a British made rolling mill, and
so I got the Indian one as a 'stop gap', but it has been perfectly
satisfactory for a number of years now.


--
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.




  #19  
Old March 6th 08, 02:59 AM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
Heinrich Butschal[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 21
Default I would like to make my own Sterling and Argentium Metals... Is this possible ?

Abrasha schrieb:
Jman wrote:
I currently possess a large number of pure silver bars (500 oz's) an=

d
a LOT of pure copper. Can I combine (using a proper scale) the prop=

er
weights and make my own Jewellry grade silver in a crucible ? I've
seen many a link where this is being done, but I have never spoken
with anyone who has "Actually done it".

=20
Making your own "good" Sterling Silver, in a setup that is not a=20
professional setup, is extremely difficult if not impossible to achieve=

=2E=20
I have done it, and will never do it again. In over 30 years I have =


never been able to make a decent sterling silver ingot.
=20
The main reason for this, is that right at the melting point of silver,=

=20
it's ability to absorb oxygen rises almost twenty fold. In German this=

=20
is called "Sauerstoffaufnahmefaehigkeit". Oxygen will get trapped=20
inside the alloy, which will manifest itself as so called "Blausilber" =


(Blueish spots under the surface of the ingot), which can only be=20
removed mechanically. Unfortunately with simple hand held crucibles,=20
and without protective gas to keep oxygen out of the melt, is is=20
practically impossible to prevent these spots from forming.
=20
If you have access to "Theory and Practice of Goldsmithing" by Erhard=20
Brepohl, you can read about this phenomenon.=20
(http://tinyurl.com/28vhjq). It's a very good buy. It was translated =


from the German by my friend Charles Lewton-Brain. I had to study it =


in school. Some time ago, I put the graph relating to this on my web=20
site, when this issue came up in the ng.
=20
Is the process more difficult than it looks ?

=20
Yes. It is almost impossible to achieve good results.
=20
Is making a strip sheet
of sterling or argentium even possible without foundry type tools ?

=20
You'll be able to make a strip of silver of extremely poor quality.
=20

Are there other metals that one can produce in a shop environment ?

=20
High karat gold ingots, 18K and up, are a great deal easier to produce.=

=20
Although top quality is again practically impossible in a simple shop=

=20
environment. Here the problem is usually air bubbles inside the ingot,=

=20
in "inconvenient" places. Read, usually smack in the middle of the=20
ingot, and therefore in the middle of a piece of sheet, once it is=20
rolled out. Very annoying. I made all my own gold alloys for well ove=

r=20
20 years. I no longer do this. I like working with perfect sheet.
=20

You are right, however beginners try to start always with the highest=20
complication level. They must have their own experiences.
;-)


Mit freundlichem Gru=DF,
Heinrich Butschal
--=20
Schmuck Gutachter und Schmuckverkauf http://www.butschal.de
Schmuck nach Ma=DF anfertigen http://www.meister-atelier.de
Firmengeschenke und Ehrennadeln http://www.goldschmiede-meister.com
Schmuckmanufaktur http://www.schmuckfabrik.de
Schmuck gut verkaufen und g=FCnstig kaufen http://www.schmuck-boerse.com
  #20  
Old March 8th 08, 12:25 AM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
Andrew Werby
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 49
Default I would like to make my own Sterling and Argentium Metals... Is this possible ?

You've gotten some good advice here, FC. If you really want (good) sheet
sterling instead of your fine silver bars, contact a refiner. Many of them
produce sterling sheet, and should be willing to trade it for your bullion.
They might want to assay it first, and there's usually a charge for that,
but it should work out to a lot less than buying sheet without the trade-in.

Andrew Werby
www.computersculpture.com


"Jman" wrote in message
...
I currently possess a large number of pure silver bars (500 oz's) and
a LOT of pure copper. Can I combine (using a proper scale) the proper
weights and make my own Jewellry grade silver in a crucible ? I've
seen many a link where this is being done, but I have never spoken
with anyone who has "Actually done it".

Is the process more difficult than it looks ? Is making a strip sheet
of sterling or argentium even possible without foundry type tools ?

Are there other metals that one can produce in a shop environment ?

Some Tools / supplies currently on hand:

-Kiln (very soon)
-Oxy/Ace Torch
-MAPP / Propane
-Small crucibles
-Stainless Steel, Carbon Plates, etc...
-Lots of silver, Copper, Bronze, Brass, Steel, etc...

Cheers,

/FC



 




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