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Lampwork question



 
 
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  #1  
Old August 20th 03, 10:38 PM
CLP
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Lampwork question

If any lampworkers or lampwork afficionados could give me your opinions
regarding hard and soft glass, I'd appreciate it. I have read and read,
looked at sites, ingested these posts and I now know that there is a huge
difference between boro glass and soft glass. I know the difference has to
do with the amount of heat used, but what I don't know and can't seem to
find out is why somebody would hesitate doing the boro beads? Is it more
difficult? More expensive? Harder to work with? From what I can see, the
boro beads have a clear glass covering (pyrex) and the soft glass ones
don't? Is that accurate or am I *way* down a wrong road with my thinking?

As with any art, once you have expertise, you can glance at something and
say - this, this and this is good, this is bad. A typesetter "ows" at poor
kerning, a knitter at dropped stitches. So I don't know what you/y'all are
seeing when you show links to various beads that you've stumbled across and
everyone oohs and ahs. Sometimes I think - "they're ok I guess, but no big
deal; I like these others much better." But since the wows are so
exhuberant, I figure it must be an insider "knowledge of the art" thang.

I want to take this lampwork class (soft glass) but don't have a huge amount
of cash to experiment with lots of courses right now. I'm not sure if I
should go ahead and this class will give me a base to build on or whether
working with boro is a horse of a different color entirely and I should try
to find a teacher for that, instead.

Anyone?
Gracias!
Live and be well,
Christy


Ads
  #2  
Old August 20th 03, 11:03 PM
Kandice Seeber
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Boro is a completely different animal, and a lot of lampworkers stay away
simply because it's more expensive and you need a hotter torch to work it.
I personally don't like the colors nearly as much as Moretti and Bullseye.
I think boro is pretty, but not something I want bad enough to spend the
extra money. The glass itself is quite a bit more expensive than Moretti.
Boro beads don't necessarily have a clear coating, and many Moretti beads
have a clear coating. It's a matter of preference on the part if the
beadmaker. Boro beads look that way because it is the nature of the glass.
It's incredibly difficult to do geometric patterns with boro - the nature of
the glass is such that one color can turn many different colors in the heat.
Boro takes a lot of practice as well - even more than soft glass in my
opinion.
--
Kandice Seeber
Air & Earth Designs
http://www.lampwork.net

If any lampworkers or lampwork afficionados could give me your opinions
regarding hard and soft glass, I'd appreciate it. I have read and read,
looked at sites, ingested these posts and I now know that there is a huge
difference between boro glass and soft glass. I know the difference has to
do with the amount of heat used, but what I don't know and can't seem to
find out is why somebody would hesitate doing the boro beads? Is it more
difficult? More expensive? Harder to work with? From what I can see, the
boro beads have a clear glass covering (pyrex) and the soft glass ones
don't? Is that accurate or am I *way* down a wrong road with my thinking?

As with any art, once you have expertise, you can glance at something and
say - this, this and this is good, this is bad. A typesetter "ows" at poor
kerning, a knitter at dropped stitches. So I don't know what you/y'all are
seeing when you show links to various beads that you've stumbled across

and
everyone oohs and ahs. Sometimes I think - "they're ok I guess, but no big
deal; I like these others much better." But since the wows are so
exhuberant, I figure it must be an insider "knowledge of the art" thang.

I want to take this lampwork class (soft glass) but don't have a huge

amount
of cash to experiment with lots of courses right now. I'm not sure if I
should go ahead and this class will give me a base to build on or whether
working with boro is a horse of a different color entirely and I should

try
to find a teacher for that, instead.

Anyone?
Gracias!
Live and be well,
Christy




  #3  
Old August 20th 03, 11:08 PM
Barbara Forbes-Lyons
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

From my readings, etc., hard glass is harder to work with and I the glass
can be more expensive. Plus I think the torch setup is different, too.

Look here for prices on Glass Alchemy glass (hard glass) $49 per pound:
http://www.artglass1.com/glass-alchemy-w.htm

Northstar is a bit cheaper:
http://www.artglass1.com/northstar-glass-r.htm

Compare to Moretti ($7-8 per pound):

http://www.artglass1.com/morettir.htm


I know many of the lampworkers will weigh in on this, but wanted to get you
started with a few links.
--

Barbara
www.penguintrax.com

eBay: pnguintrax
Justbeadsenguintrax

0
/O\


"CLP" wrote in message
news:eTR0b.3962$j26.1336@lakeread02...
If any lampworkers or lampwork afficionados could give me your opinions
regarding hard and soft glass, I'd appreciate it. I have read and read,
looked at sites, ingested these posts and I now know that there is a huge
difference between boro glass and soft glass. I know the difference has to
do with the amount of heat used, but what I don't know and can't seem to
find out is why somebody would hesitate doing the boro beads? Is it more
difficult? More expensive? Harder to work with? From what I can see, the
boro beads have a clear glass covering (pyrex) and the soft glass ones
don't? Is that accurate or am I *way* down a wrong road with my thinking?

As with any art, once you have expertise, you can glance at something and
say - this, this and this is good, this is bad. A typesetter "ows" at poor
kerning, a knitter at dropped stitches. So I don't know what you/y'all are
seeing when you show links to various beads that you've stumbled across

and
everyone oohs and ahs. Sometimes I think - "they're ok I guess, but no big
deal; I like these others much better." But since the wows are so
exhuberant, I figure it must be an insider "knowledge of the art" thang.

I want to take this lampwork class (soft glass) but don't have a huge

amount
of cash to experiment with lots of courses right now. I'm not sure if I
should go ahead and this class will give me a base to build on or whether
working with boro is a horse of a different color entirely and I should

try
to find a teacher for that, instead.

Anyone?
Gracias!
Live and be well,
Christy




  #4  
Old August 20th 03, 11:20 PM
CLP
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Thanks, Kandice. I appreciate the input.
"the nature of
the glass is such that one color can turn many different colors in the

heat."
Like raku issues, sort of?


--
"Karmageddon: It's like, when everybody is sending off all these really
bad vibes, right? And then, like, the Earth explodes and it's like, a
serious bummer." Washington Post Style Invitational

"Kandice Seeber" wrote in message
news:XeS0b.210788$YN5.146091@sccrnsc01...
Boro is a completely different animal, and a lot of lampworkers stay away
simply because it's more expensive and you need a hotter torch to work it.
I personally don't like the colors nearly as much as Moretti and Bullseye.
I think boro is pretty, but not something I want bad enough to spend the
extra money. The glass itself is quite a bit more expensive than Moretti.
Boro beads don't necessarily have a clear coating, and many Moretti beads
have a clear coating. It's a matter of preference on the part if the
beadmaker. Boro beads look that way because it is the nature of the

glass.
It's incredibly difficult to do geometric patterns with boro - the nature

of
the glass is such that one color can turn many different colors in the

heat.
Boro takes a lot of practice as well - even more than soft glass in my
opinion.
--
Kandice Seeber
Air & Earth Designs
http://www.lampwork.net

If any lampworkers or lampwork afficionados could give me your opinions
regarding hard and soft glass, I'd appreciate it. I have read and read,
looked at sites, ingested these posts and I now know that there is a

huge
difference between boro glass and soft glass. I know the difference has

to
do with the amount of heat used, but what I don't know and can't seem to
find out is why somebody would hesitate doing the boro beads? Is it more
difficult? More expensive? Harder to work with? From what I can see, the
boro beads have a clear glass covering (pyrex) and the soft glass ones
don't? Is that accurate or am I *way* down a wrong road with my

thinking?

As with any art, once you have expertise, you can glance at something

and
say - this, this and this is good, this is bad. A typesetter "ows" at

poor
kerning, a knitter at dropped stitches. So I don't know what you/y'all

are
seeing when you show links to various beads that you've stumbled across

and
everyone oohs and ahs. Sometimes I think - "they're ok I guess, but no

big
deal; I like these others much better." But since the wows are so
exhuberant, I figure it must be an insider "knowledge of the art" thang.

I want to take this lampwork class (soft glass) but don't have a huge

amount
of cash to experiment with lots of courses right now. I'm not sure if I
should go ahead and this class will give me a base to build on or

whether
working with boro is a horse of a different color entirely and I should

try
to find a teacher for that, instead.

Anyone?
Gracias!
Live and be well,
Christy






  #5  
Old August 20th 03, 11:22 PM
CLP
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Thank you, Barbara. I will look into these links. I just stumbled across
this one: http://www.lampworkerslounge.com/index.php, but haven't had the
opportunity to delve very deeply.

--
"Karmageddon: It's like, when everybody is sending off all these really
bad vibes, right? And then, like, the Earth explodes and it's like, a
serious bummer." Washington Post Style Invitational


"Barbara Forbes-Lyons" wrote in message
...
From my readings, etc., hard glass is harder to work with and I the glass
can be more expensive. Plus I think the torch setup is different, too.

Look here for prices on Glass Alchemy glass (hard glass) $49 per pound:
http://www.artglass1.com/glass-alchemy-w.htm

Northstar is a bit cheaper:
http://www.artglass1.com/northstar-glass-r.htm

Compare to Moretti ($7-8 per pound):

http://www.artglass1.com/morettir.htm


I know many of the lampworkers will weigh in on this, but wanted to get

you
started with a few links.
--

Barbara
www.penguintrax.com

eBay: pnguintrax
Justbeadsenguintrax

0
/O\


"CLP" wrote in message
news:eTR0b.3962$j26.1336@lakeread02...
If any lampworkers or lampwork afficionados could give me your opinions
regarding hard and soft glass, I'd appreciate it. I have read and read,
looked at sites, ingested these posts and I now know that there is a

huge
difference between boro glass and soft glass. I know the difference has

to
do with the amount of heat used, but what I don't know and can't seem to
find out is why somebody would hesitate doing the boro beads? Is it more
difficult? More expensive? Harder to work with? From what I can see, the
boro beads have a clear glass covering (pyrex) and the soft glass ones
don't? Is that accurate or am I *way* down a wrong road with my

thinking?

As with any art, once you have expertise, you can glance at something

and
say - this, this and this is good, this is bad. A typesetter "ows" at

poor
kerning, a knitter at dropped stitches. So I don't know what you/y'all

are
seeing when you show links to various beads that you've stumbled across

and
everyone oohs and ahs. Sometimes I think - "they're ok I guess, but no

big
deal; I like these others much better." But since the wows are so
exhuberant, I figure it must be an insider "knowledge of the art" thang.

I want to take this lampwork class (soft glass) but don't have a huge

amount
of cash to experiment with lots of courses right now. I'm not sure if I
should go ahead and this class will give me a base to build on or

whether
working with boro is a horse of a different color entirely and I should

try
to find a teacher for that, instead.

Anyone?
Gracias!
Live and be well,
Christy






  #6  
Old August 20th 03, 11:28 PM
Christina Peterson
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Hi Christy,

Lampworkers seem to prefer the cool things they can get boro to do. And I
have some and I love it. But my personal preference is for bright clear
colors which are more common with pyrex.

I don't claim to be typical.

Actually, in the same way that I want to work with my favorite colors and
combinations because I have a quicker eye for it, I would suggest you
simply work in what you like best. I also believe that it's fine for an
artist to usually use the same colors. It makes it much easier for me when
I'm looking for something in those colors.

Tina


"CLP" wrote in message
news:eTR0b.3962$j26.1336@lakeread02...
If any lampworkers or lampwork afficionados could give me your opinions
regarding hard and soft glass, I'd appreciate it. I have read and read,
looked at sites, ingested these posts and I now know that there is a huge
difference between boro glass and soft glass. I know the difference has to
do with the amount of heat used, but what I don't know and can't seem to
find out is why somebody would hesitate doing the boro beads? Is it more
difficult? More expensive? Harder to work with? From what I can see, the
boro beads have a clear glass covering (pyrex) and the soft glass ones
don't? Is that accurate or am I *way* down a wrong road with my thinking?

As with any art, once you have expertise, you can glance at something and
say - this, this and this is good, this is bad. A typesetter "ows" at poor
kerning, a knitter at dropped stitches. So I don't know what you/y'all are
seeing when you show links to various beads that you've stumbled across

and
everyone oohs and ahs. Sometimes I think - "they're ok I guess, but no big
deal; I like these others much better." But since the wows are so
exhuberant, I figure it must be an insider "knowledge of the art" thang.

I want to take this lampwork class (soft glass) but don't have a huge

amount
of cash to experiment with lots of courses right now. I'm not sure if I
should go ahead and this class will give me a base to build on or whether
working with boro is a horse of a different color entirely and I should

try
to find a teacher for that, instead.

Anyone?
Gracias!
Live and be well,
Christy




  #7  
Old August 20th 03, 11:32 PM
CLP
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Karen - How did you learn all this? I appreciate the info. I certainly don't
have the ability to go for the more expensive just now, so this is really
good to know. Now - let me ask this - What then, is the purpose of going the
boro route? Just for the more organic color and time/ease/length of
mallability?

I am going to get really, really excited now about lining up this class! I
so love the "paperweight" type glass, for example that link someone posted
to the guy in Hawaii who had the beautiful pendants with butterflies in
them... Somehow the clear glass encasing seems to act like a magnifier and
intensifies the colors. I thought you could only do that with the hard
glass. And i really love the beads of the guy who goes by "antglass" on
EBay, and that's boro. But if soft glass can do all that cool stuff and if i
have an aptitude, and if and if and if...
Ooh i am getting very excited about this!
Christy
--
"Karmageddon: It's like, when everybody is sending off all these really
bad vibes, right? And then, like, the Earth explodes and it's like, a
serious bummer." Washington Post Style Invitational


"Karen_AZ" wrote in message
news:qmS0b.11551$nf3.8147@fed1read07...
Hi there! I'm going answer this piece by piece. I've been making beads for
over 6 years now, and use both boro and soft glasses about evenly, time

and
quantity-wise.

I know the difference has to do with the amount of heat used, but what I

don't know and can't seem to find out is why somebody would hesitate doing
the boro beads? Is it more difficult? More expensive? Harder to work with?



First, boro is a "harder" glass. It requires a lot more heat to melt and
manipulate...heat = oxygen + propane. More fuel = higher cost. And, it

helps
to have a torch that can put out a larger, hotter flame. Larger torches =
larger price tags. So, definitely more expensive. Plus, the glass itself

is
more expensive. Most Italian and compatible soft glasses (Effetre/Moretti,
Lauscha, Murano and Vetrofond) average $12 per pound (some are cheaper

some
more expensive, but that's pretty close to average). Boro, with the
exception of clear, runs $50 on average. The clear is about $8 per pound.
So, again, a bunch more expensive, even with a usual clear cores most of

the
boro beadmakers use for most beads. As a confusing program note, there are
other types of "soft" glass which are not compatible with those above.

Most
notably Bullseye/Spectrum/Uroboros (90-96 COE) and Satake (140 COE, from
Japan). Both of these other groups are more expensive than the Italian
types, but not as much as boro, and offer different colors. And THAT is
another strong difference. For the most part the Italian glasses are

clear,
bright "crayon" type colors, while boro tends to be more muted and

organic.
There are exceptions on both sides though. The color differences are often
what get various folks' attention, though. And working up those colors

with
boro often takes more time/effort/experimentation to learn and reproduce
consistently. (I'm still very much in the "surprise" stage myself).

Because
of the higher heat required, unless you have a fairly powerful torch, boro
also works more slowly and there are a few techniques in soft glass that

you
can't do in hard glass, and vice versa. A luxury with hard glass is that

you
can take your time, build components and let them cool and generally
manipulate your glass without constant worries about keeping it all
uniformly hot...it's a lot more tolerant to temperature variations.

From what I can see, the boro beads have a clear glass covering (pyrex)

and
the soft glass ones don't? Is that accurate or am I *way* down a wrong

road
with my thinking?

That part is definitely a misunderstanding. Beads of both "flavors" can
either be cased with clear (or other colors) or not. It all depends on the
effect you're going for. There's no requirement either way.

Sometimes I think - "they're ok I guess, but no big deal; I like these

others much better." But since the wows are so
exhuberant, I figure it must be an insider "knowledge of the art" thang.

There are some basic shaping niceties, like not having jagged edges and
making sure bumps and stringers are solidly attached, but the rest is

pretty
subjective IMO. Some folks like pastels, some like organics. Same with
shapes and textures. I have customers who ask for bumps or wish I wouldn't
do them on a particular design. Some don't have a clue how to handle one

of
my flutters, others are bored by plain old round beads. Something for
everyone. G

I want to take this lampwork class (soft glass) but don't have a huge

amount of cash to experiment with lots of courses right now. I'm not sure

if
I should go ahead and this class will give me a base to build on or

whether
working with boro is a horse of a different color entirely and I should

try
to find a teacher for that, instead.

IMO, go for it! Most of the techniques you'll learn with soft glass will
translate well into boro. Plus, I think the learning curve with soft

glass,
until and unless you start making large beads, is a lot easier. Also, if
you're on a tight budget, the initial outlay and expenses will be a lot
lower. A good thing until you decide whether this is really for you or

not.
AND, it's not impossible to make boro beads on a smaller torch. I made my
first 100 or so on the same Minor I used to make soft glass beads for
several years. It was only after I started getting frustrated by the time

I
was spending with simple shaping that I decided to move up to a larger
torch.

Good luck!




--
KarenK
Desert Dreamer Designs
http://members.cox.net/desertdreameraz/
Ebay Sto http://www.stores.ebay.com/desertdreamerdesigns
JustBeads: http://www.justbeads.com/search/ql.cfm?s=DesertDreamer





  #8  
Old August 21st 03, 12:08 AM
Kandice Seeber
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Um, not sure about that one - as I don't know what raku is.

--
Kandice Seeber
Air & Earth Designs
http://www.lampwork.net

Thanks, Kandice. I appreciate the input.
"the nature of
the glass is such that one color can turn many different colors in the

heat."
Like raku issues, sort of?




  #9  
Old August 21st 03, 12:37 AM
Karen_AZ
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Karen - How did you learn all this? I appreciate the info. I certainly
don't
have the ability to go for the more expensive just now, so this is really
good to know. Now - let me ask this - What then, is the purpose of going the
boro route? Just for the more organic color and time/ease/length of
mallability?

First off, you're very welcome! The condensed version of how I was seduced
by hot glass is that I always thought it was cool. I used to be a
fiber-holic and at a workshop weekend I met Leah Fairbanks, who very kindly
talked to me about what she was teaching in her class. I was enthralled. I
found a class with Kate Fowle a few months later and that was that! I've
since taken a few more classes with Kate, Jim Smircich, Tom Holland and
Patricia Sage and spent quality time with Sylvie Lansdowne, who was my
"glassmomma-mentor" on AOL when I started to get brave enough to sell. And
as you can probably tell I'm a chatterbox. G Occasionally I manage to
listen, too. Luckily a lot of other glass junkies are talkers too.

As to "why boro?" For me part of it is the challenge. There's something
amazing about messing around with the same stuff I cook with (Pyrex is just
a brand name for borosilicate glass), but getting to make it pretty. Also,
I'm a wannabe painter (but can't draw worth a damn) so this is MY way of
messing with colors. Boro just gives you different possibilities...like the
difference between working with pastels or watercolors or oils or color
pencils. I was never satisfied with anything smaller than the 96 color box
of crayons. And the surprise reactions between colors give you even MORE
possibilities.

The other thing IS the malleability. Round beads are nice but I like texture
and motion, too. My flutter beads are a starting point, leading to some of
the other bizarre things I've messed with. Unfortunately, with soft glass
you end up doing a wild dance when you get away from a more unified shape,
trying to keep all the parts and bumps and edges warm. I've watched Sylvie
make large mermaids and be almost done, only to have a tailfin *crack* at
the wrong moment. (Horrible sound) Boro won't do that. You can do wide, thin
pieces, pick 'em up, put 'em down, focus on one area for a much longer time
to work on a detail, and it won't break on you. I've done rather large (over
2") flutters for windchimes that took me 50-60 minutes each to make and
never lost one. Of course, it also DID take me about an hour and sucked
oxygen like crazy. For quick shaping, fun color layers and bright colors,
Moretti still can't be beat.

Eventually, I don't think it has to be an either/or thing at all, unless you
want it to be. I sometimes go back & forth at one sitting, but I can go for
days with one or the other, too. It just depends on my mood and what I have
in my head.
--
KarenK
Desert Dreamer Designs
http://members.cox.net/desertdreameraz/
Ebay Sto http://www.stores.ebay.com/desertdreamerdesigns
JustBeads: http://www.justbeads.com/search/ql.cfm?s=DesertDreamer



 




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