Help with Buffing.

I hope I have come to the right NG. I just want to learn to buff small
metal articles like stainless steel watch bands, spoons, and them may
be gold bracelets etc. I bought a 1/6 hp motor with flex shaft, white
and green rouge, and some small buffing wheels (1'' diameter). These
were bought from the jewellers' tool shop. These are my problems so
far(still practising with a stainless steel spoon):

1. Do I need to use sandpaper before buffing? At present it take a
long time for me to get some shine out of the work.

2: Do I need to change the "angle of attack", or just always apply the
wheel to the work piece in one same direction? It seems that once I
change the angle, the luste disappears somewhat.

3. For the finer buffing , I used a cloth wheel(just sewn once near
the middle). One the wheel revs up, the cloth thread begins to fly
out( because of the anti centrifugal force ) so there is lint all over
the place and the wheel gets smaller and smaller. Even worse when I
apply the wheel to the rouge. Is the normal for this kind of wheels?
Should I just tolerate the lint?

4. It seems that the finer the rouge, the slower RPM should be used?
Correct?

Any help appreciated

ABC

On Sat, 06 Oct 2007 11:01:12 -0700, in rec.crafts.jewelry ABC
wrote:

I hope I have come to the right NG. I just want to learn to buff small
metal articles like stainless steel watch bands, spoons, and them may
be gold bracelets etc. I bought a 1/6 hp motor with flex shaft, white
and green rouge, and some small buffing wheels (1'' diameter). These
were bought from the jewellers' tool shop. These are my problems so
far(still practising with a stainless steel spoon):

1 inch wheels are about as large as you can use on a flex shaft, but for a fixed
shaft motor, you can use larger wheels. If your motor has, in addition to the
flex shaft, a fixed buffing arbor, you could use, say, a 3 inch wheel, which
would cut faster and a bit smoother. If all you've got is the flex shaft
handpiece, then the 1 inch wheels will be fine. Just sometimes a bit slower, or
harder to get larger surfaces evenly buffed.


1. Do I need to use sandpaper before buffing? At present it take a
long time for me to get some shine out of the work.

Sometimes, if the marks to be removed are deep. Alternatively, use a buffing
compound that's got more "cut" to it than a rouge. Rouge compounds generally
are used for final buffing, not so much for initial smoothing. You normally
start with a cutting compound like tripoli, or for coarser cutting, greystar
compound), or for a bit gentler cutting, a "white diamond" tripoli compound.
Your white rouge will have some "cut" to it, but not much.


2: Do I need to change the "angle of attack", or just always apply the
wheel to the work piece in one same direction? It seems that once I
change the angle, the luste disappears somewhat.

You do want to be varying the angle, in order to avoid drag lines. The apparent
reduction in luster is just that varying the wheel's angle gets new rouge
compound from the wheel to the work. Stay there a moment, and it shines up
again. Use less rouge as you near the final polish, and this won't happen so
much. But do still vary the buffing direction as you work.


3. For the finer buffing , I used a cloth wheel(just sewn once near
the middle). One the wheel revs up, the cloth thread begins to fly
out( because of the anti centrifugal force ) so there is lint all over
the place and the wheel gets smaller and smaller. Even worse when I
apply the wheel to the rouge. Is the normal for this kind of wheels?
Should I just tolerate the lint?

All new cloth buffing wheels do this. It's normal. As you use the wheel, those
looser outer threads go away, and the wheel generates less lint. Plus, by then
you've added more compound, and the binders in the compound tend to hold the
wheel together. But in general, the lint and dust is normal for buffing. It's
one big reason why fixed buffing motors are usually fitted with a dust shield
and vacuum system to suck up the lint and polishing dust. With a flex shaft
system, you can approximate this, to keep your work area cleaner, by setting the
hose of a shop vac or vacuum cleaner behind your buffing area. Noisy, but it
will help. In either case, be sure to wear a dust mask to keep from breathing
in the lint or buffing dust. Without a good dust collection system on a buffing
setup, you'd otherwise end up inhaling a good deal of the dust, if not the
lint, and that's not a good thing. By the way, felt wheels and brushes are also
good ways to buff, each having different capabilities and results. Both felt
wheels and brushes are mostly free from the lint problems, though both still
generate buffing dust (the brushes especially). Felt wheels are the cleanest to
use in this regard, are quicker cutting, but harder to use especially if you're
trying to get an existing smooth surface polished, since felt wheels cut more,
and tend to give their own shape to the surface, rather than following the
existing surface. This is good if you're trying to get a nice sharp flat edge
on an object that is starting with a sanded or ragged edge, but not so good if
you're trying to keep the original curves and contours.

4. It seems that the finer the rouge, the slower RPM should be used?
Correct?

If that works for you, but not in general. higher speed doesn't reduct the
quality of polish, and works faster. What you'll want to do as you appreach the
final stage is use less pressure, and less compound. If you wish to reduce the
speed, then do so, but that's up to your personal preference. Remember that
most pros polish on full sized buffing motors, and these are fixed speed. On
those, if you want slower buffing action, you use a smaller buff, but you're
already using small buffs, so you're not getting very high surface speeds on
the flex shaft anyway. The finer rouge compounds (red is the finest) give a
higher polish due to the composition of the rouge. Slower cutting rate, finer
particle size, etc. You don't need to slow down unless you find that it's
simply cutting too fast for you. Some work on fine details will require you to
slow down so as not to buff off too much, but I doubt this is an issue for what
you say you're doing.

cheers

Peter

Any help appreciated

ABC

To Peter's always excellent advice, I'd just add that there are some
new products on the market that produce a lot less dust and mess than the
traditional cloth wheels and compounds. 3m Corp makes some brushes with an
open
structure, like spiral strands, in an abrasive-charged rubber compound; I've
found these to be pretty effective on irregular surfaces and cleaner, if
more expensive, than the cloth buffs. There are also some solid rubber
points and wheels that are made with rubber and grits that range from quite
aggressive ones that will grind metal away like sandpaper (Craytex is a
well-known brand) to very fine grits suitable for final polishing in gold.
Here are some links to suppliers:

http://www.americanjewelrysupply.com...ves/wheel.html

http://www.contenti.com/products/pol.../443-404C.html

http://www.ottofrei.com/store/home.php?cat=251

Also, if you are dealing with stainless steel, you'll likely need different
polishing compounds than you'd use for gold and silver; the metal's a lot
harder, and it takes a different kind of abrasive to polish it effectively.
Rouge, for example, would be a poor choice; tripoli likewise. These
compounds are just a bit harder than gold; jewelers like them because they
can work close to a (relatively hard) stone without ruining it.

Andrew Werby
www.computersculpture.com



"ABC" wrote in message
...
I hope I have come to the right NG. I just want to learn to buff small
metal articles like stainless steel watch bands, spoons, and them may
be gold bracelets etc. I bought a 1/6 hp motor with flex shaft, white
and green rouge, and some small buffing wheels (1'' diameter). These
were bought from the jewellers' tool shop. These are my problems so
far(still practising with a stainless steel spoon):

1. Do I need to use sandpaper before buffing? At present it take a
long time for me to get some shine out of the work.

2: Do I need to change the "angle of attack", or just always apply the
wheel to the work piece in one same direction? It seems that once I
change the angle, the luste disappears somewhat.

3. For the finer buffing , I used a cloth wheel(just sewn once near
the middle). One the wheel revs up, the cloth thread begins to fly
out( because of the anti centrifugal force ) so there is lint all over
the place and the wheel gets smaller and smaller. Even worse when I
apply the wheel to the rouge. Is the normal for this kind of wheels?
Should I just tolerate the lint?

4. It seems that the finer the rouge, the slower RPM should be used?
Correct?

Any help appreciated

ABC

On Sat, 06 Oct 2007 11:20:38 -0700, "Peter W.. Rowe,"
wrotd:

1. Do I need to use sandpaper before buffing? At present it take a
long time for me to get some shine out of the work.

Sometimes, if the marks to be removed are deep. Alternatively, use a buffing
compound that's got more "cut" to it than a rouge.

Upto what grit should I use the sandpaper before I change to Buffing?


Remember that
most pros polish on full sized buffing motors, and these are fixed speed. On
those, if you want slower buffing action, you use a smaller buff, but you're
already using small buffs, so you're not getting very high surface speeds on
the flex shaft anyway.

This is also what I wanted to ask. The jeweller tool shop showed me a
1/2 hp bench grinder/buffer with tapered spindle-- to fit 6" wheels.
They are cheaper that the hanging motor. Will this be too big?

I mainly want to buff up old watches. The main part would be the
bezel(very thin), and perhaps the largest area is the metal bracelet.
How can I use the 6" wheels to get to the corners and small places of
these parts?

Would a pro use a flex shaft or bench grinder to buff watches?

BTW, my flex shaft is 22000rpm. would this produce approximately the
same result as a 6'x 3000rpm ?

Thanks very much for your help.

ABC

ABC wrote:
I hope I have come to the right NG. I just want to learn to buff small
metal articles like stainless steel watch bands, spoons, and them may
be gold bracelets etc. I bought a 1/6 hp motor with flex shaft, white
and green rouge, and some small buffing wheels (1'' diameter). These
were bought from the jewellers' tool shop. These are my problems so
far(still practising with a stainless steel spoon):

You can forget getting any decent results with a 1/6 hp motor and a 1"
diameter buffing wheel.

As a minimum you need a 1/2 hp motor running at 1725 rpm as he
http://www.ottofrei.com/store/produc...at=1074&page=1
or better a Baldor polishing lathe like this:
http://www.ottofrei.com/store/produc...at=1070&page=1

Buffs should be at least 3 to 4" in diameter, to get any decent surface
speed.


1. Do I need to use sandpaper before buffing?

Yes

At present it take a
long time for me to get some shine out of the work.

2: Do I need to change the "angle of attack", or just always apply the
wheel to the work piece in one same direction? It seems that once I
change the angle, the luste disappears somewhat.

You are probably not using the correct compounds and you are most likely
also pressing too hard. And changing angles is a good idea.


3. For the finer buffing , I used a cloth wheel(just sewn once near
the middle). One the wheel revs up, the cloth thread begins to fly
out( because of the anti centrifugal force )

Anti centrifugal force? That's a new one.

so there is lint all over
the place and the wheel gets smaller and smaller. Even worse when I
apply the wheel to the rouge. Is the normal for this kind of wheels?

You are using the wrong wheel. You should start with this kind of
wheel. A muslin wheel is the best.
http://www.ottofrei.com/store/produc...at=1377&page=1

As you can see, they are not only sewn in the middle, but in concentric
circles radiating out. As the wheel wears out, you cut the stitching of
the next circle. There is never a whole lot of cloth flapping about,
just about an inch. When properly used, a wheel of 4 to 5" in diameter
will last for a long time.

Lint is normal for new wheels. This is usually carefully burned off
with a match. It's called "burning in a new wheel".

Should I just tolerate the lint?

If you know what you are doing, and clearly you do not, you do not have
to deal with "lint".


4. It seems that the finer the rouge, the slower RPM should be used?
Correct?

No. 1725 rpm is the most common speed for all polishing lathes.

BTW, I will not reply to this thread again. I do not like people using
false names like . I find it rude.

--
Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com

On Sat, 06 Oct 2007 23:16:04 -0700, in rec.crafts.jewelry Abrasha
wrote:


As a minimum you need a 1/2 hp motor running at 1725 rpm as he
http://www.ottofrei.com/store/produc...at=1074&page=1
or better a Baldor polishing lathe like this:
http://www.ottofrei.com/store/produc...at=1070&page=1

Most polishing lathes intended for buffs up to about six inches, including the
two you illustrate, run at twice that speed, 3450 rpm. Some buffing lathe
motors offer a dual speed switch with 1725 as the slow speed, but it's not as
common or offered on all buffing motors.

1725 rpm is the common speed of utility motors, like in washing machines, or
powering various tools.

Peter

On Sat, 06 Oct 2007 23:16:04 -0700, Abrasha
wrotd:

BTW, I will not reply to this thread again. I do not like people using
false names like . I find it rude.

Dear Abrasha

May be you are luckly enough not to have had you real email address
spammed by disclosing it in a NG. I was unlucky once and that was
quite enough.

Thanks for your very special way of helping. It has been informative.

ABC

Thanks so much. This is useful.

ABC

On Sat, 06 Oct 2007 16:17:34 -0700, "Andrew Werby"
wrotd:

3m Corp makes some brushes with an
open
structure, like spiral strands, in an abrasive-charged rubber compound; I've
found these to be pretty effective on irregular surfaces and cleaner, if
more expensive, than the cloth buffs. There are also some solid rubber
points and wheels that are made with rubber and grits that range from quite
aggressive ones that will grind metal away like sandpaper (Craytex is a
well-known brand) to very fine grits suitable for final polishing in gold.

On Sun, 07 Oct 2007 01:57:14 -0700, in rec.crafts.jewelry ABC
wrote:

On Sat, 06 Oct 2007 23:16:04 -0700, Abrasha
wrotd:

BTW, I will not reply to this thread again. I do not like people using
false names like . I find it rude.

Dear Abrasha

May be you are luckly enough not to have had you real email address
spammed by disclosing it in a NG. I was unlucky once and that was
quite enough.

Thanks for your very special way of helping. It has been informative.

ABC

While Abrasha may be a bit more blunt about his feelings regarding hidden email
addresses, he's often not the only one who'd appreciate some means of contacting
a poster in private email, or at least having what appears to be an honest and
real name to call a still anonymous poster. There are several ways to avoid
spamming as a result of newsgroup postings. In the vast majority of cases,
these problems are not caused by people individually reading the posts. Rather,
it's by automated bot programs scanning newsgroups (many at a time) to harvest
addresses, usually just from the "from" or "reply to" headers. A time honored
and reasonably effective way to get around this threat is to munge up your real
address is some manner, so those two headers are not correct, but then to give,
in the body of your message, a description of how to "unmunge" the address
should a human like to contact you. Scanning other posts in this group over
time you'll see many such munged email addresses, where the word "NOT" is
obviously added to the domain name, or "REMOVE" is insterted somewhere. Often
these are obvious edits for a human, but will fool a bot. Other changes are
more subtle, requiring an edit to the address which is then described in the
post, often in the sig file. Easy to do, and has the advantage that some people
may not wish to reply to an information request in the newsgroup, but would
prefer to reply in private. So making it somehow possible for people to reply
to you will often improve the quantity and quality of information you get.

Peter Rowe
moderator
rec.crafts.jewelry

On Sat, 06 Oct 2007 23:15:58 -0700, in rec.crafts.jewelry ABC
wrote:

On Sat, 06 Oct 2007 11:20:38 -0700, "Peter W.. Rowe,"
wrotd:

1. Do I need to use sandpaper before buffing? At present it take a
long time for me to get some shine out of the work.

Sometimes, if the marks to be removed are deep. Alternatively, use a buffing
compound that's got more "cut" to it than a rouge.

Upto what grit should I use the sandpaper before I change to Buffing?

this really depends on the metal, how you're buffing, and with what compounds.
But 400 or 600 grits are usually sufficiently fine. On some metals, or if you
wish to avoid having to use a coarser cutting compound, you can go much finer.
Rouge will take out a 1200 sandpaper finish fairly easily, for example. When
sanding, be sure to fully remove all traces of marks from coarser papers before
moving to the next finer grade.



Remember that
most pros polish on full sized buffing motors, and these are fixed speed. On
those, if you want slower buffing action, you use a smaller buff, but you're
already using small buffs, so you're not getting very high surface speeds on
the flex shaft anyway.

This is also what I wanted to ask. The jeweller tool shop showed me a
1/2 hp bench grinder/buffer with tapered spindle-- to fit 6" wheels.
They are cheaper that the hanging motor. Will this be too big?

Nope. Bigger is better with buffing motors. You do want, generally, a 3450 rpm
motor, not a slower one, unless you're planning on using larger (8" or larger)
buff. For your smaller items, that would probably not be needed.) The motor
should be solidly mounted so it cannot move, and is usually fitted with tapered
threaded spindles to easy hold and switch buffs. If the spindles come to a good
point, you can use virtually any small buff too, or if, as many spindles to,
they're a little blunt at the end, you can get chucks that will go on the end
that themselves will then hold small buffs and brushes.

One advantage of a bigger motor setup is that it's then easier as well to rig up
a vacuum/suction setup to catch the buffing dust. And a face shield too, is a
good idea, especially for beginners. Easier than safety glasses in some
instances. The fixed motor allows you to hold the item more securely, since
you've got both hands free.


I mainly want to buff up old watches. The main part would be the
bezel(very thin), and perhaps the largest area is the metal bracelet.
How can I use the 6" wheels to get to the corners and small places of
these parts?

You're not limited to six inch wheels with a buffing motor. Switch to smaller
wheels if you need to. And buffs are not your only option. Brushes, ranging
from 3 to 4 inch diameter on down to half inch diameter, are very useful and
versatile. The follow a detailed surface better than a buff, get into details,
and cut quite quickly if frequently charged with compound. The small ones fit
on a specialty spindle, called and MK spindle (the most common brand of these
small brushes is the MK brand, but there are others too.)

By the way, do be careful with buffing watches. If you don't have some decent
level of knowledge about watches, you can do a lot of damage both to the watch
and to it's value with indiscriminate buffing. In particular, in many cases,
the watch movement should be removed before the case is buffed up, or you won't
be able to properly clean the buffing compound off after buffing. For what it's
worth, know that many jewelers who'll happily repolish old jewelry, will refuse
to go anywhere near a watch unless the person requesting it is a watchmaker
who's able to disassemble the watch for buffing, and reassemble it later, and
has the knowledge to choose which watches are suitable for this treatment and
which are not.


Would a pro use a flex shaft or bench grinder to buff watches?

As I said, most pros would be leery of buffing many watches, but for those that
do need buffing, most pros use a fixed polishing lathe. That term describes a
fixed larger motor, with tapered spindles, usually mounted with a dust
collection setup, as shown in Abrasha's links. Most of us do not use a "bench
grinder", which can often be a similar sort of motor, but set up with fixed
grinding wheels. Flex shafts are good for doing touch up polishing on small
areas, often prior to doing the rest of the polish work on the full size
machine, but about the only jewelers who're polishing the whole piece with a
flex shaft are the ones either doing such small detailed work that nothing else
is needed, or those who simply don't have a proper buffing machine. That's not
uncommon with, for example, students are those just starting out. But the
simple fact is that for most buffing, it's safer, faster, and more effective to
use the larger machines.

BTW, my flex shaft is 22000rpm. would this produce approximately the
same result as a 6'x 3000rpm ?

No. While the flex shaft can give good polishing on small areas, it won't work
if you need to cover larger areas. Because the flex shaft can only cover a
little at a time, it's difficult to get uniform surfaces, and you'll gend to get
uneven spotty polishing. Don't get rid of the flex shaft. it's great for
detailing. But if you're doing any quantity of serious polishing, the bigger
machine is almost certaily required.

Also, with either setup, do some reading on proper polishing technique. Buffing
and polishing can, in a beginners hands, be one of the most dangerous processes
in a jewelry shop. Almost all of the most serious accidents I've seen in the
jewelry business have involved buffing and polishing. That means danger to both
the jewelry, and to the person doing the work. In particular, pay attention to
how you hold the piece, so if the buff grabs it, it can be pulled out of your
fingers without taking the fingers along for the ride. Pinch the work between
fingers, don't loop fingers fully around an item, for example. And present the
work to the buff so the buff is moving "off" the item, not "onto" or "into" an
edge, which is then more easily snagged and pulled. Cloth buffs are the most
dangerous. Felt wheels and brushes are much less likely to snag. But you
can't get away from a cloth buff entirely. For the final finish, a soft
unstiched muslin buff will give the finest and highest polish.

Thanks very much for your help.

ABC



sure. And for Abrasha and me both, what did you say yer name was? Even just a
first name would seem more polite...

Peter Rowe