About rolling mills.....

I work in a shop where I am the sole craftsman, doing everything from
soldering chains to designing and creating custom jewelry. Over the years I
have managed to build a modest following and it has been, while not too
financially rewarding, mostly a good experience. The problem is I work for a
boss who is incredibly tight with his money and getting him to invest in
basic equipment is like pulling teeth. Consequently, I do everything the
hardest way possible using the minimum of tools. One of the most irksome
arguments we have is my need for a rolling mill in order to be more
productive and creative. He just doesn't seem to get the need for it even
though I have pointed out how much time/money would be saved if we had one.
I'm thinking I just haven't properly stated my case here.
Any ideas how I can turn this skinflint around? The guy is just tying one
hand behind my back by refusing to buy one and it drives me crazy.

Thanks in advance,
chris
(I'm looking for any ideas from anyone who might have one. Except Abrasha.
Not really interested in anything that guy has to say.)

"HoyoD" wrote in message
...
I work in a shop where I am the sole craftsman, doing everything from
soldering chains to designing and creating custom jewelry. Over the years
I
have managed to build a modest following and it has been, while not too
financially rewarding, mostly a good experience. The problem is I work for
a
boss who is incredibly tight with his money and getting him to invest in
basic equipment is like pulling teeth. Consequently, I do everything the
hardest way possible using the minimum of tools. One of the most irksome
arguments we have is my need for a rolling mill in order to be more
productive and creative. He just doesn't seem to get the need for it even
though I have pointed out how much time/money would be saved if we had
one.
I'm thinking I just haven't properly stated my case here.
Any ideas how I can turn this skinflint around? The guy is just tying one
hand behind my back by refusing to buy one and it drives me crazy.

Thanks in advance,
chris
(I'm looking for any ideas from anyone who might have one. Except Abrasha.
Not really interested in anything that guy has to say.)


I bought my rolling mill in order to save money. Since I only do custom
work and repairs, mostly in gold, I often cannot predict what thicknesses of
sheet and wire that I will need. With the mill I can stock only the
thicnesses I can easily convert. Result - less money tied up in stock.
Also, I can melt scrap and easily convert it to sheet or wire, thus saving
even more. When first purchased some 30 years ago it represented the
biggest capitol outlay to date despite it being a humble manual powered
version - but I've never regretted it. It gets used almost every day.

Apart from the standard uses of making sheet thinner, making square wire,
impressing interesting surface patterns and making non-standard D-section
wire, I use mine for making rectangular wire and thin, narrow strip. All
the books I've read say that a rolling mill makes things longer without
affecting the width - this is not true. I found that if I roll round or
square wire through the flat rolls it gets noticeably wider. For example, if
I roll 1.42mm diam round wire down to 0.5mm thick, it becomes 2mm wide. If
I roll it to 0.32mm thick it becomes 2.5mm wide. By experiment, I was able
to determine a relationship between the original thickness and the final
thickness and width. I then wrote a simple program where I can enter the
required width and thickness and it tells me what size wire to start from.
Its not 100% accurate, but certainly accurate enough for my purposes. I
recently had to make some tiny rub-over mounts for 3mm half pearls. For this
I needed a length of 0.9mm x 0.16mm gold strip. The program told me I
needed to start from 0.6mm round wire. A few minutes later I had my
non-standard strip ready to use.

I hope this helps.

--
Regards, Gary Wooding

(Change feet to foot to reply)

The problem is I work for a
boss who is incredibly tight with his money and getting him to invest in
basic equipment is like pulling teeth.

I would estimate how much gold you lose because you are not rolling sizing
stock down to the thickness you need, and also how much extra time it takes you
to file away that extra. Put your estimate on paper right next to the cost of
the rolling mill.
I make my own sizing stock out of the pieces cut from new rings, and solid
wedding bands people have traded in. You can melt it together and pour it into
a form. Then you just roll it down to whatever size you need. That might be
another approach to take.

On Fri, 31 Oct 2003 21:25:05 -0800, in rec.crafts.jewelry "HoyoD"
wrote:


(I'm looking for any ideas from anyone who might have one. Except Abrasha.
Not really interested in anything that guy has to say.)

Well, as both the moderator of this group, who on occasion has to deal with the
roiled tempers Abrasha now and then manages to create, and also a fellow
goldsmith who considers him a friend, I'd like to suggest that your making a
mistake here. Abrasha's comments may on occasion be too blunt for some folks
sensative feelings. But it sounds to me like you need, for your boss, to bring
out the "big hammer". Abrashas comments, printed out and presented to your
boss, might be just what's needed here... Assuming he ignores your rude snub
and posts his commentary anyway.

Personally, my own ideas here would be kinda blunt too. Buy the mill with your
own cash. Bill him for it, or bill him for it's use if he doesn't pay for it.
If that doesn't work, take enough of the gold scrap from around your shop, maybe
even a few slow sellers from the showcases, sell em to a refiner to pay for the
mill, present your boss with the reciepts and paperwork for it all so he can't
accuse you of trying to steal from him, and then explain that the conversion of
scrap to a useful form which you've just demonstrated, is similar to what will
also occur with the mill, since you'll then be able to reuse much of the scrap
instead of having to pay premium prices for prepared sheet and wire while
having to sell usable metal to the refiners....

And, if as might happen, he fires you for this affrontery, use it as a catalyst
to go find a better boss to work for. Sounds to me like your stuck in a dead
end job. If your boss is enough of a penny pincher, perhaps he also recognizes,
but won't admit, that you're making him money, and values your being there,
though he also probably won't admit it, for fear of having to then pay you more.
If this turns out to be the case, then stand up for yourself, your
craftsmanship, and the need to have the right tools and equipment. You cannot
hope to give your customers proper service if the only tools he allows you to
work with are a few dull rocks to beat on things with. We're already a field
where many shops are technologically stuck way in the past compared to what
our industry offers us, and expects from us. The right tools, equipment, and
knowledge to do things right will speed things up, improve productivity and
quality, and will give his customers, his business, and you, a better deal. If
he won't agree to that, take matters into your own hands and make the decision
for him. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised at the results if you stand up
for yourself.

Peter

Chris, Your problem may be a little more complex than just trying to
convince your boss to purchase new equipment. First, your boss may be
right. Could be that he is so far into the red that the cost of new
equipment will not improve his bottom line. Or, you are doing such a good
job with what you have, why rock the boat now? In these cases it may be time
for you to either look for another shop or another line of work. Which leads
to the fact that you might have outgrown your present situation and it is
time for you to go independent. Buy your own rolling mill, torches and other
equipment, set up shop and hire a helper. Do contract work for your current
boss (he would be an ideal client since he is dependent on others to do his
work).

Second, you are correct. You like working for this shop. You don't have what
it takes to work for yourself. You are stuck with primitive tools and long
hours. The skinflint drives a new Caddy and you bicycle 10 miles uphill to
work 2hours before sunrise. Solutions... There are none, you are stuck. Live
with it.

Third, a we-win compromise. Ask him for a raise. This is to defray the cost
to you for a new rolling mill which you would gladly share with him, but
will take with you when you leave.

All of the above assumes that you gathered a few brochures showing price
comparisons of rolling mills and gave your boss written cost and benefit
analysis showing how much PROFIT he would make and tax write-offs he could
take and improved service (time, quality, etc.) he could give to valued
clients. Hope this helps, Will Estavillo

Thanks to everyone who has responded to this problem of mine. I have tried
most of the suggested ideas, a few I have not.....but will.
Peter, I appreciate the angle you are taking here but I'm afraid a few of
the suggestions are a little impractical for me, such as buying the rolling
mill myself, as I just don't have the cash to pull that off. Also, I'm
pretty sure if I were to take ANYTHING out of his cases to do as I thought
fit (like selling them to a refiner) I would be looking for another job. I
am an employee not a partner. I am one of the better goldsmiths in my town
but this is a small city and there aren't many opportunities available.
Several of the shops I would rather go hungry than work for. Moving is out
of the question. Yes, I am stuck in a dead-end job but trying to make the
most of it till I can strike out on my own. That being said, I do appreciate
your input.
As to my "rude" comments toward Abrasha, I guess he isn't the only one
allowed to be a little rude, eh? You say he is blunt, I say he is downright
insulting. Yes, I am a little sensitive to someone who consistently talks
down to whoever he is addressing and usually with a good deal of venom. I
have no time for such people, regardless of their "wisdom". A truly wise
person knows how to communicate without being offensive.

chris


"Peter W. Rowe" pwrowe@ixDOTnetcomDOTcom wrote in message
...
On Fri, 31 Oct 2003 21:25:05 -0800, in rec.crafts.jewelry "HoyoD"
wrote:


(I'm looking for any ideas from anyone who might have one. Except
Abrasha.
Not really interested in anything that guy has to say.)

Well, as both the moderator of this group, who on occasion has to deal
with the
roiled tempers Abrasha now and then manages to create, and also a fellow
goldsmith who considers him a friend, I'd like to suggest that your making
a
mistake here. Abrasha's comments may on occasion be too blunt for some
folks
sensative feelings. But it sounds to me like you need, for your boss, to
bring
out the "big hammer". Abrashas comments, printed out and presented to
your
boss, might be just what's needed here... Assuming he ignores your rude
snub
and posts his commentary anyway.

Personally, my own ideas here would be kinda blunt too. Buy the mill with
your
own cash. Bill him for it, or bill him for it's use if he doesn't pay for
it.
If that doesn't work, take enough of the gold scrap from around your shop,
maybe
even a few slow sellers from the showcases, sell em to a refiner to pay
for the
mill, present your boss with the reciepts and paperwork for it all so he
can't
accuse you of trying to steal from him, and then explain that the
conversion of
scrap to a useful form which you've just demonstrated, is similar to what
will
also occur with the mill, since you'll then be able to reuse much of the
scrap
instead of having to pay premium prices for prepared sheet and wire while
having to sell usable metal to the refiners....

And, if as might happen, he fires you for this affrontery, use it as a
catalyst
to go find a better boss to work for. Sounds to me like your stuck in a
dead
end job. If your boss is enough of a penny pincher, perhaps he also
recognizes,
but won't admit, that you're making him money, and values your being
there,
though he also probably won't admit it, for fear of having to then pay you
more.
If this turns out to be the case, then stand up for yourself, your
craftsmanship, and the need to have the right tools and equipment. You
cannot
hope to give your customers proper service if the only tools he allows you
to
work with are a few dull rocks to beat on things with. We're already a
field
where many shops are technologically stuck way in the past compared to
what
our industry offers us, and expects from us. The right tools, equipment,
and
knowledge to do things right will speed things up, improve productivity
and
quality, and will give his customers, his business, and you, a better
deal. If
he won't agree to that, take matters into your own hands and make the
decision
for him. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised at the results if you
stand up
for yourself.

Peter

Hey Will,
You make some good points. He does feel I am doing well without it but I'm
sure he hasn't thought enough to realize what he could save. As far as
looking for another line of work ---- you must be joking! I couldn't imagine
doing something else and won't even entertain the idea!
I'd love to buy my own rolling mill, and looking at recent prices will do so
before too long, but it will be for my home shop when I do.
The idea of working for myself and contracting for my boss has entered my
mind but the time isn't right yet. Need more in the bank before that
happens.
As far as having what it takes to work for myself -- who knows? You never
know till you try, right?
I just noticed that Stuller has a rolling mill for around $300, I think I'll
be showing that one to the boss next. See what happens.....

chris




"will e" wrote in message
...
Chris, Your problem may be a little more complex than just trying to
convince your boss to purchase new equipment. First, your boss may be
right. Could be that he is so far into the red that the cost of new
equipment will not improve his bottom line. Or, you are doing such a good
job with what you have, why rock the boat now? In these cases it may be
time
for you to either look for another shop or another line of work. Which
leads
to the fact that you might have outgrown your present situation and it is
time for you to go independent. Buy your own rolling mill, torches and
other
equipment, set up shop and hire a helper. Do contract work for your
current
boss (he would be an ideal client since he is dependent on others to do
his
work).

Second, you are correct. You like working for this shop. You don't have
what
it takes to work for yourself. You are stuck with primitive tools and long
hours. The skinflint drives a new Caddy and you bicycle 10 miles uphill to
work 2hours before sunrise. Solutions... There are none, you are stuck.
Live
with it.

Third, a we-win compromise. Ask him for a raise. This is to defray the
cost
to you for a new rolling mill which you would gladly share with him, but
will take with you when you leave.

All of the above assumes that you gathered a few brochures showing price
comparisons of rolling mills and gave your boss written cost and benefit
analysis showing how much PROFIT he would make and tax write-offs he could
take and improved service (time, quality, etc.) he could give to valued
clients. Hope this helps, Will Estavillo

Abrasha's comments may on occasion be too blunt for some folks
sensative feelings. But it sounds to me like you need, for your boss, to
bring
out the "big hammer". Abrashas comments, printed out and presented to your
boss, might be just what's needed here... Assuming he ignores your rude
snub
and posts his commentary anyway.

Wow. Abrasha is regularly rude and you regularly defend him. This guy isn't
interested in what Abrasha has to say, says so, and you practically ask for an
apology. You regularly hold us to a different standard than you hold Abrasha
to, but geeze.

Personally, my own ideas here would be kinda blunt too. Buy the mill with
your
own cash. Bill him for it, or bill him for it's use if he doesn't pay for
it.

And go job hunting the very next day.

If that doesn't work, take enough of the gold scrap from around your shop,
maybe
even a few slow sellers from the showcases, sell em to a refiner to pay for
the
mill, present your boss with the reciepts and paperwork for it all so he
can't
accuse you of trying to steal from him,

And after your prison term is up you can go job hunting.

and then explain that the conversion
of
scrap to a useful form which you've just demonstrated, is similar to what
will
also occur with the mill, since you'll then be able to reuse much of the
scrap
instead of having to pay premium prices for prepared sheet and wire while
having to sell usable metal to the refiners....

Finally something I can agree with )

And, if as might happen, he fires you for this affrontery, use it as a
catalyst
to go find a better boss to work for. Sounds to me like your stuck in a dead
end job.

So you're advocating breaking the law and/or risking his livelyhood, in
order to get a tool that is essentually a luxery item. A tool that for whatever
reason(s), his boss has declined to purchase. While I agree that it would be in
his bosses best interest to buy a rolling mill, I don't see how it benifits the
jeweler enough to risk his job over. He's (probably) making the same amount of
money no matter how much time and money is wasted because of the lack of a
mill.

The right tools, equipment,
and
knowledge to do things right will speed things up, improve productivity and
quality, and will give his customers, his business, and you, a better deal.
If
he won't agree to that, take matters into your own hands and make the
decision
for him.

You must be kidding. Those are not his decisions to make.

I think you'll be pleasantly surprised at the results if you stand
up
for yourself.

I think he'll be suprised alright.

HoyoD wrote:

I work in a shop where I am the sole craftsman, doing everything from
soldering chains to designing and creating custom jewelry. Over the years I
have managed to build a modest following and it has been, while not too
financially rewarding, mostly a good experience. The problem is I work for a
boss who is incredibly tight with his money and getting him to invest in
basic equipment is like pulling teeth. Consequently, I do everything the
hardest way possible using the minimum of tools. One of the most irksome
arguments we have is my need for a rolling mill in order to be more
productive and creative. He just doesn't seem to get the need for it even
though I have pointed out how much time/money would be saved if we had one.
I'm thinking I just haven't properly stated my case here.
Any ideas how I can turn this skinflint around? The guy is just tying one
hand behind my back by refusing to buy one and it drives me crazy.

Thanks in advance,
chris
(I'm looking for any ideas from anyone who might have one. Except Abrasha.
Not really interested in anything that guy has to say.)


Your loss, JA.

It just so happens, that a good friend is just now selling all her jewelry
equipment, because she no longer uses it. A good rolling mill is part of the
deal. Could have been yours for the taking :-)

Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com

"HoyoD" wrote in message
...

As far as having what it takes to work for myself -- who knows? You
never
know till you try, right?

Hi Chris, that's what I said to myself 22 years ago now. It was a
struggle at first, but now I'm quite happy with what I'm doing. Advice
for going on your own? I would keep your job for now with the intent
on leaving sometime in Spring/Summer. Meanwhile, in your workshop at
home, get your designing hat on and DESIGN! Make those designs in
silver (plate them if you can, but it's not important).
When you're ready, set up an appointment, (Dentist) with a
well-known manufacturer in the nearest City to you (do everything by
post if you get the deal), with the view that you are a designer and
have some designs that will fit nicely into their catalogue. They
should see you, but if not, try another company. Convince them that
you have what they want, (this is initially two-fold for them, you can
design, AND make the models, and if they sell, it's three-fold, you
are an asset too!)
Take the 'piece-price' route - they supply all castings, stones,
etc. on sales achieved, you finish the items and invoice the company
accordingly with the prices that you agreed on. 5-10 items a day @
$15-$20 a piece? (Christmas is fun!)

If you have a slack week, design some more and send them to the
company. On top of this, you have your custom and repair service for
your locals too.


I just noticed that Stuller has a rolling mill for around $300, I
think I'll
be showing that one to the boss next. See what happens.....

Take a look here, (search for 'rolling mill') they have 15 in stock
(at the time of typing this), and they look pretty good for the $175
that they're asking. (Disc: I have no idea if these are quality
products or not): http://www.stores.ebay.com/jewelerswebshop

Good luck.

-SP-



chris