UK specific: What is a hallmark?

William Black wrote:


Nope, not these days, I think the USA is just about the only major country
without a marking system.


That is not true. The US does have stamping laws, i.e. the "National Gold and
Silver Stamping Act" that are in fact quite rigorous. The only thing different,
is that a jeweler does not take his wares to an assayer's office to have it
done, he does so himself. So the quality and quantity of the goods is not
guaranteed by the government, but by the maker. If caught to be wrong, stiff
penalties are levied.

It is true, that the US does NOT require goods to be stamped with a quality
mark. However, if a quality mark is used it MUST be accompanied by a maker's mark.

Read:

http://www.washingtonwatchdog.org/do...ch8/index.html

Sections 294, 295, 296.

Several years ago, I was contacted by the Jewelers Vigilance Committee, on
organization in the US, that oversees fraud in this area, about an issue
regarding the way I had stamped a certain ring. A jeweler (a very incompetent
one) had irreparably damaged one of my rings, that belonged to one of his
customers, while trying to size it. When I refused to sell him a replacement at
a greatly reduced cost, he contacted the Jewelers Vigilance Committee and
claimed that his mistake was due to my incorrect stamping. (instead of his
incompetence). To make a long story short, I won the case.

But the bottom line is, we most definitely have stamping laws. Stamping is just
executed differently than in the UK for instance.
Of course some countries (Italy springs to mind)
have problems, but they all mark...



cheats abuse the
freedom they enjoy by not accepting the responsibility
that goes with the freedom.. Ted Frater.

So, punish for fraud. Do not force jewelers to put
those *butt-ugly* little stamps on articles that are
intended to be *beautiful.*


Jewellers don't.

You send it away to be stamped.


These kinds of laws are on the books not really to protect
individuals but to protect organizations. It happens
everywhere. The cattle barons here in Texas have pushed
through a law protecting locally grown *beef* from
slander. It's all just to be ridiculed.


Ah...

You're from Texas...

Sorry...



--
Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com

William Black wrote:


So, punish for fraud. Do not force jewelers to put
those *butt-ugly* little stamps on articles that are
intended to be *beautiful.*


Jewellers don't.

You send it away to be stamped.



Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Oh, btw, take a look at Mr. Stevens' work
to understand where he is coming from. And he calls those little stamps
"butt-ugly"?

http://tinyurl.com/9c9tl

and other pieces at http://mbstevens.com/x4x2002/index.html

Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com

"mbstevens" wrote in message
...
CheshireCat wrote:
Maybe
there's different rules for jewellery made from multiple
metals, perhaps hallmarks aren't allowed for these
pieces as they're not pure enough.

That seems to be exactly right, if I am reading correctly.
And it's the basis of my grumble. Suppose Mr. X makes a
really beautiful mokume ring with lots of platinum and
silver. Some of the swirls are pure gold.
Unfortunately, the ring contains some bronze and copper
streaks for contrasting color. So, let's say he can't
get it hallmarked.

Unfortunately for Mr. X, it is "an offence for any person
to apply to an unhallmarked article a description
indicating that it is wholly or partly made of gold,
silver or platinum."

This seems to me to be an injustice to Mr. X.
He *should* be able to attach a truthful description
to the ring.

It would be bad enough to slap Mr. X's wrist if he
refuses to comply, but he can also can get jailed for
*TEN*
years.

That makes the injustice much worse.
Mr. X has commited no fraud.
He has simply engaged in a bit of healthy civil
disobedience.

Civil disobedience, when it breaks the law, attracts the penalty accorded
by law.

In reality the carcase of the piece, made from a single metal, would be
submitted for assay and marked.

They mark before polishing and stone setting.

--
William Black

I've seen things you people wouldn't believe
Barbeques on fire by chalets past the headland
I've watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off Newborough
All this will pass like ice-cream on the beach
Time for tea

"Abrasha" wrote in message
...
William Black wrote:


So, punish for fraud. Do not force jewelers to put
those *butt-ugly* little stamps on articles that are
intended to be *beautiful.*


Jewellers don't.

You send it away to be stamped.



Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Oh, btw, take a look at Mr.
Stevens' work
to understand where he is coming from. And he calls those little stamps
"butt-ugly"?

http://tinyurl.com/9c9tl

and other pieces at http://mbstevens.com/x4x2002/index.html

Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com

WOW! 8¬D
Some design! And with pieces like this, who cares about hallmarks.
I like them and would wear them.

--
Jackdaw collector of junk, trivia and bright twinkly things.

"Abrasha" wrote in message
...
William Black wrote:


So, punish for fraud. Do not force jewelers to put
those *butt-ugly* little stamps on articles that are
intended to be *beautiful.*


Jewellers don't.

You send it away to be stamped.



Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Oh, btw, take a look at Mr.
Stevens' work
to understand where he is coming from. And he calls those little stamps
"butt-ugly"?

http://tinyurl.com/9c9tl

and other pieces at http://mbstevens.com/x4x2002/index.html

Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com

WOW! 8¬D
Some design! And with pieces like this, who cares about hallmarks.
I like them and would wear them.

--
Jackdaw collector of junk, trivia and bright twinkly things.

On Wed, 04 May 2005 17:44:28 -0700, in Abrasha wrote:


Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Oh, btw, take a look at Mr. Stevens' work
to understand where he is coming from.

Yes indeed. Sensative, orgainic, free form. Very Nice work, IMHO.
But of course, design ideas vary a lot, and Mr. Steven's work, clearly wildly different
from your own, Abrasha, may well not appeal to you, nor agree with your ideas of how
designs for jewelry should be arrived at. So you are as free to personally not like
it, as I am, to like both Mr. Steven's work, AND your own.

And he calls those little stamps
"butt-ugly"?

As you say, in the eye of the beholder. One can clearly see why, given the nature of
Mr. Stevens work, he might well find such stamps in conflict, aesthetically, with his
designs, just as by contrast, your own work might easily be quite well complimented,
rather than diminished, by the application of nice neat hallmarks.

I would, however, like to remind readers of this thread of messages on the moderated
rec.crafts.jewelry group to please be sure to confine judgemental comments to the work,
or the topics and opinions discussed, rather than letting this degrade into insults of
the people involved. Those of you following this thread in uk.rec.crafts should know
that personal attacks or flames are not allowed in r.c.j., and posts, no matter which
group they originate in, will be blocked if they don't conform to the posting standards
of r.c.j. If you object to this, exclude it from the crosspost list when you post.

Peter Rowe
moderator
rec.crafts.jewelry

On Thu, 05 May 2005 07:27:43 +0000, Peter W.. Rowe, wrote:

Yes indeed. Sensitive, organic, free form.

Hmm.
I offer my apologies for that "...at the mall" crack!
(I like to keep things a *little* edgy. It's been
so awfully _quiet_ around the forum...maybe
spring fever among the bling-blingeures.
I've been missing any real
jewelry discussion for a couple of months now.)
;-)

Well if you go into a legitimate supplier and ask them to make up the
punches I imagine they'd send you away.

So first of all you need a set of punches made by a currupt maker, and
they'd cost plenty. The penalty for cheating is ten years in prison.

I was horrified to see a seller offering a 14K punch on UK ebay a few weeks
ago.
I suppose seeing the advert there was good for warning people to the dangers
A quick google on "14k punch" revealed some sites selling punches to whoever
wants one.
What rules are there in USA regarding marking gold?

On Fri, 06 May 2005 17:57:27 -0700, in ¸õ "CheshireCat"
wrote:

Well if you go into a legitimate supplier and ask them to make up the
punches I imagine they'd send you away.

So first of all you need a set of punches made by a currupt maker, and
they'd cost plenty. The penalty for cheating is ten years in prison.

I was horrified to see a seller offering a 14K punch on UK ebay a few weeks
ago.
I suppose seeing the advert there was good for warning people to the dangers
A quick google on "14k punch" revealed some sites selling punches to whoever
wants one.
What rules are there in USA regarding marking gold?


In the U.S.A., jewelers have their own karat marking punches, as well as their own
trademark punches, and apply the marks to their work themselves. The laws here are
quite specific on what purities of metal can be marked, how they're marked, and
penalties for fraudulently / incorrectly marking things. The main differences between
the U.K. and the U.S. are that in the U.K., you have to submit the work for testing, and
the testing agency then marks the work for you, providing independent verification of
the accuracy of the mark, while here in the U.S., it's sort of on the honor system.
You're liable to penalties if you mark a piece with a quality better than it is, but
since jewelers do their own marking, buyers simply have to trust that the jeweler is
honest, knows what he or she is doing, and that the metal is what is claimed in the
mark. The main mechanism for enforcing this is the requirement that if a piece is
marked with a quality mark, it then must also be marked with a registered trademark, in
order that false claims can be traced to the person who made them. Needless to say this
is a somewhat less that reliable system. But it's what we have. Think of it as
informational claims by the seller, rather than any sort of guaranteed quality marking.
Just as false advertising claims for a product can be prosecuted, so too, can false
quality marking of precious metals, if you get caught.

Some issues that can further confuse things are that U.S. marking standards allow some
slight margin of error. Not as much as used to be the case (when a half karat tolerance
was allowed in fabricated wares to allow for the lower karat content of some solders at
that time), but it still means work can be very slightly under karat and still be legal.
These tolerances may vary from those used (if used at all) in the U.K. or the E.U.

Also, these are federal laws relating to interstate commerce. Work made and sold
entirely within one's home state may not be subject to the stamping laws (especially the
bit about registering one's trademark), if local state laws don't also require it (which
varies state to state). And the whole thing of registering a trademark at all can be
confusing, especially to artists just starting out. The process is somewhat pricey, and
the law requires a trademark to be functionally already in use before it can be
registered.

Also, the U.S. law is somewhat less specifically tailored to traditional jewelery, in
that it allows marking by means other than just the traditional stamps. It says the
marks must be equally legible (quality and trademark) and not hidden from view,
intending that a retail buyer can find and read the marks. But it only regulates that
the marks be there for the retail buyer, not necessarily a permanent part of the piece.
Thus it is legal for a work to be completely unmarked, but have a "hang tag" or label,
available to the retail consumer, with the trademark and quality information on the tag.

Peter

CheshireCat wrote:
Well if you go into a legitimate supplier and ask them to make up the
punches I imagine they'd send you away.

So first of all you need a set of punches made by a currupt maker, and
they'd cost plenty. The penalty for cheating is ten years in prison.


I was horrified to see a seller offering a 14K punch on UK ebay a few weeks
ago.

Why? That is perfectly normal. In the US, (as well as in Germany if I remember
correctly), goldsmiths stamp their own work. We have no government oversight in
the stamping process. We do have the Jewelers Vigilance Committee.
http://www.jvclegal.org/



I suppose seeing the advert there was good for warning people to the dangers

What warning? Do you assume that everyone stamping a piece of jewelry
themselves is a crook and defrauding the public?

A quick google on "14k punch" revealed some sites selling punches to whoever
wants one.
What rules are there in USA regarding marking gold?



I posted this a few days ago.

Read:

http://www.washingtonwatchdog.org/do...ch8/index.html

Sections 294, 295, 296.

--
Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com