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#21
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#22
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Mirjam Bruck-Cohen wrote:
Double standards Dianne , By whom? Each of us here has different standards, Mirjam. We are not a monolith. You didn't "pour out your feelings", you condemned us for having said nothing. May you or none of you never be in my/ our place ,, When i pour my feelings in one way you call me whining and playing victim , when i speak from my heart another time you call it condemming ...... When exactly did Dianne ever call you whining or playing the victim? Yes i was telling you that i was hoping just for once that this group will be different , but you can`t .. And i do not know what this comparison with Dutchie does here .... Different than what? The comparison with Dutchie points out that she brought her feelings to us and people could commiserate with her. You come accusing us and wonder why you get anger in response. There's a difference. Rueben (Dutchie) poured out her heart. We responded with well wishes and simple advice. You poured out your anger. I simply didn't know how to respond to your post. But that didn't mean that I was in any less pain over the war and death that both Palestine and Isreal are suffering. If you think this is anger , lady are you lucky , and have you had a shelterd life , even with your last hard life .Those who wanted knew how to respond ,..On other Ngs and lists people Phoned, in this ng ... Chocolade and ...petrol prices are more important ,,,, So your complaint isn't that none of us cared about the bombing, it's that none of us here cared enough *about you* to phone you. You reap what you sow Mirjam. And you have no way of knowing which of us here checked in with our friends in Israel. Nor did all of us post about petrol prices and chocolate. But don't let that stop you from lumping us all into one. I simply don't know how we're going to stop religious zealots. We're dealing with zealots of all kinds in our own country. They are frightening. And Dianne you better start thinking about those Zealots before they blow up somethnmg else in your country or have you forgotten the Twin towers , blown up by the same school of thought. By condeming their acts you give them a blow at a time , by keeping quiet you encourage them !!!!! How do you know that any of us are keeping quiet? Not posting about it to a needlework group does not mean that we are keeping quiet where it matters. Perhaps you should put a little more energy into things that matter and stop continually chastising the people on this group for not meeting your warped expectations (and yes, I think expecting a phone call from people with whom you are not on good terms is warped). Elizabeth -- *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~living well is the best revenge~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* The most important thing one woman can do for another is to illuminate and expand her sense of actual possibilities. --Adrienne Rich *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* |
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#25
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We would be the first to apploud it as we are have to vclose our
industry as Usa exports her unemployment to us and other countries , by 'Giving " aid in the form of things madeby American workers , If you will not Give that you will have Unemployment , Thus You 'Aid other countries , get political influence and have WORK ,, mirjam On Sun, 24 Aug 2003 02:41:39 GMT, "Dr. Brat" wrote: toni ferrick wrote: I have 2 questions--I know they are dumb but I just have to ask? 1. Why are there more jews in NYC than in Israel? 2. Why can't we just leave them alone and let Israel defend themselves how they see fit? They did fine the last time. If by "leave them alone" you include cutting foreign and military aid to Israel (and everybody else, thank you very much), I'm all for it. Elizabeth -- *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~living well is the best revenge~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* The most important thing one woman can do for another is to illuminate and expand her sense of actual possibilities. --Adrienne Rich *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* |
#26
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On this list you keep quiet
and that is what i know of your political activity .. I speak act and behave every where in the same manner if i am against some political thing and i see it expressed here i will react to it here that same way i do outside , I am one person with one face not many . mirjam And who says I'm keeping quiet? Just because I said nothing here doesn't mean I'm being quiet. You have no idea at all what I do in the background - when I'm not reading/posting here. I give zealots courage when I act, think and talk "fear". I'm not gonna do that - as long as it's possible for me to behave otherwise. I may not have known the fear of war and cruelty like those during WWII or under regimes such as Pol Pot or Edi Amin, but I know fear for my life, and being helpless to stop it. You are not the only one, Mirjam. You know nothing about me. Dianne |
#27
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Elizabeth , double standard by the many people who can tell here evert
tiny little thing that bugs them ,,, but Oh if i ever do it ,, immidaitely i am flamed and attacked ,,, look waht you are doing i wondered why there was not one knid word about the killing of babies and it turns into an attack on me and on the country ,,,, not on the attackers , but on the attacked ...... As to having different standards ,,,, Mazal tov , my best wishes ,. you finnaly aggree with me , for years i have been saying that the people here react as if the whole world, looks like their town, it doesn`t I HAVE BEEN WRITING time and again Elizabeth THAT ALL HAVE Different Standards and none of you agreed ,now SUDDENLY you claim it By whom? Each of us here has different standards, Mirjam. We are not a monolith. Well nice!!! that you get finnaly to my ideas, When exactly did Dianne ever call you whining or playing the victim? I do remember her joining this group who claims thuis ridicolous claim. comparison with Dutchie does here .... Different than what? i did not bring up this comparison with Dutchie , Dianne did , have no clue why ??? The comparison with Dutchie points out that she brought her feelings to us and people could commiserate with her. You come accusing us and wonder why you get anger in response. Oh now i am accusing ???no i was wondering , about this group who has time to speak about petrol , hitting kids , lonely mother telemarketing Catholics pedophiles etc etc etc .... But not one owrd about a group of kids murdered just like that. in vicious attack. th well wishes and simple advice. So your complaint isn't that none of us cared about the bombing, it's that none of us here cared enough *about you* to phone you. You reap what you sow Mirjam. And you have no way of knowing which of us here checked in with our friends in Israel. Nor did all of us post about petrol prices and chocolate. But don't let that stop you from lumping us all into one. Isn`t that typical of you and others here, you know very well i didn`t expect any phone calls , but i did expect some note about the murder , not to me , to all ,,,,Now you blame me personally for nobody saying any word..don`1t make me laugh , this has nothing to do with me and you know it , Here are some people , LIKE YOU who claim that they are ALL human , not long ago you claime Theodor Hertzel was part of you HUMANISTIC heritage , so if your humanistic Heritage includes him , why doesn`t you Humanistic heritage allow you to say a plain condolences about the loss of some kids ???? And you are right i do not know whether you did or didn`t check with any Israeli Friend, and that is a different matter all together . How do you know that any of us are keeping quiet? Not posting about it to a needlework group does not mean that we are keeping quiet where it matters. Perhaps you should put a little more energy into things that Now who is assuming and putting her foot in her mouth , i do work for peace more than you can know , and i do lots of stuff that does matter , and by the way reading this kinds of reactions matters a lot , so one knows how incitement and false facts are spread all over the net. matter and stop continually chastising the people on this group for not meeting your warped expectations Yes of course i have warped expectations ,,, I am different remember you yourself wrote we all have our different standards , and as i told you before this is the ONLY ng where many unkind posts are written and i use to learn and understand why people hate so much ,,,,and to blame me for causing it becuase i dare answer back , and do not Obey to your standards is the warped expectation you have mirjam Elizabeth -- *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~living well is the best revenge~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* The most important thing one woman can do for another is to illuminate and expand her sense of actual possibilities. --Adrienne Rich *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* |
#28
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I'd say that's a simplistic and rather inflamatory answer, Sheena. There have always been Jews in that area. The number began to increase markedly in the late nineteenth century as Jewish people fled persecution in Europe. For the most part, they bought land from absentee landlords and set about making a living for themselves. Sometimes they lived peacefully with the Arab populations and sometimes they didn't. Often when they didn't it had more to do with outside agitation than their own wishes to cause trouble. Elizabeth Thank you Elizabeth [ I have not seen the original post ] for this almost accurate explanation and correcting Sheena `s incitive post= with deliberate false facts. . True, it's simplistic, but not inflammatory. Can it be denied that since 1948 the numbers of people coming to live in Israel who had no connection to the land for eons have escalated and increased the trouble? What do you mean No connection to the land ,, sure my Family has more connection to the land of Israel than yours had to Canada when they Emigrated there from Europe .My family always spoke Hebrew and dreamed to go back . They encouraged more to come and 'reclaim' land. Think of how the West Bank situation has been, still is, being handled. Arab houses mowed down and settlements put up, including forbidding Arabs to visit some of their religious sites. In 1967 When Egypt and Syria ATTAcked Israel and the west bank was under Jordanian rule , and still night after night murderes occured on the borders , Israel Adviced King Housein Not to join the war , He answered by Bombing Jerushalyiem , in such heavy fire that our forces had to stop this fire and thus rejoined the TEMPLE mount .and The Jewish Quarter of Jerushalayiem ,, so please do nor distort the history , they attacked even when there were no settlements,,,they shot into our classes in the University I believe they have to expect the Arabs to fight as they take land from them which their ancestors lived on for the known past. This is also not exactly true as most Arabs here came at the same time as the Jewish pioneers and British mandate provided work . Most of all I feel that telling me I must never forget how terrible the holocaust was (and I am not a nay sayer, I know that it happened and it was a shameful thing) while I can see them perpetrating horrors on Palestinians seems to say to me that they have convenient memories or that it is okay for them to do what they condemn in another. i am not goping to answer this deliberate inflamotory remark ,, and i have more than once claimed here that i am for dividing the country , something which Mr Arrafat does his best to undermine everytime he has a chance . With US assistance the Israelis have the fire power to enforce their will. Doing so reinforces the Arab bitterness and causes them to fight back in whatever way they can, people do when they have nothing more to lose. I don't expect the situation to change much during my lifetime. You will be surprised ,,, mirjam Sheena |
#29
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And let`s not forget the American Indians and the Eskimo !!!
in USA and Canada !!!And The American Africans who were brought as Slaves for the white people who Escaped Religious or economic problems in Europe , Yes Elizabeth history is full of injustice ,,, lets talk about them all . And of course the Irish and Scots etc,,, On Sun, 24 Aug 2003 02:43:24 GMT, "Dr. Brat" wrote: Dianne Lewandowski wrote: Husband and I watched the "History" channel last night. We were both awestruck and unaware at what happened to Czechs during WWII. At the end, they showed the monument built for the children killed in the one city. So many slaughtered of all ages and philosophy. And the cruelty. And not just the Czechs, Dianne. The Poles and the Ukrainians and the Serbs and the Jews and the Chechens and the Tatars (obviously Hitler wasn't the only one at work on this list)... it goes on and on. Elizabeth -- *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~living well is the best revenge~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* The most important thing one woman can do for another is to illuminate and expand her sense of actual possibilities. --Adrienne Rich *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* |
#30
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Thank you Dawne !
I found that in my art and teaching classes i made a difference , still make a difference. Maybe it will. Maybe someday the hearts and minds of people everywhere I have iniated a Week at the end of each study year where all students for handwork Guides , meet and stay together for a whole week , many barrieres of prejuduces have been broken. and several friendships have aprouted from it. But the main result is knowing about each other existance. killing, it can stop. Ireland seemed finally, after many bloodsoaked many a time we see in Haifa that the people want to share their life , it seems that some hidden political forces mix and incite between the groups. The problem here is mainly political , but there are forces who try to turn it into a religious war , and that is bad. but the path to that point was tortuous. As ours will be , but eventually i believe we will get there . Neither, with respect, is posting to a newsgroup. First in this Ng people write about many subjects , so i think mine are as relevant as those other posts. Also i have found that many people learn through ,my posts about details and facts they would not have known , from Tv, press or other communications. perhaps one should write to one's political leaders--but then again, political leaders i write and phone , and sign pettitions, AndVOTE for or against. I do not march but i do write , take part in public debates, public meetings. etc,,,, and aily by going on with my life with the mixws communities we have here. is better than bullets. You don`t have to say this to me . sometimes smack back, An eye for an eye leaves everyone blind, as Gandhi said. Canadians, to a fair extent, do not get involved, as a country , in "smacking back", but have always been willing to stand between the combattants. I respect the Canadians stand , and when we will have your Neighbours this will apply to us as well .. people killed in the bombing in Bagdad were Canadians, one working with UNICEF, one with the Christian Children's Fund. let me resend my condolences to all the people hurt in Iraq. But each nation must is what it does, and what Israel does is what its people feel it must do. it is Not always a ,matter of choise. me i thank them with all my heart and wish them a 'Boring day" . I would join you in those wishes. All security guards, all peacekeeping battallions, all bomb squads, may they have many long and boring days. Thank you !!!! ad indeed. And there is no religion on earth that hasn't been tarnished by some fool or another doing evil in its name. Which makes it incumbent on the rest of us to do good. Dawne You know we agree on that , and i am trying to do my share , and just because i do it , i spoke as i spoke , not from the warm security of my house , but from the endangered streets. thank you For being honest , serious , human and discussing it on equal level with me . mirjam |
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