Please help with Antique Cameo

On Tue, 15 Aug 2006 19:03:03 -0700, in rec.crafts.jewelry "taximania"
wrote:


Steve, I wouldn't have thanked him. He didn't even give you a valid link
before slagging you off.

So do you feel you can ask a detailed esoteric question that can likely only be
answered by someone with unusual and expert knowledge of that subject, and when
such a person kindly takes the time to research and write a detailed and in
depth posting that supplies almost all the info you wanted, and which no doubt
required at least a bit of time to properly research in order to supply links
and details, and then because there's a minor typo, you feel no thanks are
needed for the time and effort needed to kindly offer up the requested
information?

Should I keep that in mind if in the future, you ask for some info I might
happen to know where to look up for you?

Hmm. Interesting comment, I suppose, on people's expectations of free spoon fed
information from others on the internet. Are we getting a bit spoiled? How
'bout antisocial? Does it matter?

And a reminder to all, including those reading this thread in other groups than
rec.crafts.jewelry: Rec.crafts.jewelry. is a moderated group, with
restrictions against what the charter calls "personal attacks". Some of the
posts in this thread have included such comments. Rather than simply
deleting/rejecting the whole posts, as I'm fully authorized to do, I've edited
them to remove the worst such comments, in the interest of allowing the "on
topic" conversation to continue. If you don't wish your posts edited when
posted to the other non-moderated groups in the crosspost list to which this
thread was originally sent, then delete rec.crafts.jewelry from the newsgroups
header when you post. That keeps it out of this group (r.c.j.), and out of my
hair (what little there is of it.) And to those of you who wish to have your
posts seen in rec.crafts.jewelry, kindly keep it civil. Makes you look better,
and makes my life simpler.

Peter Rowe

In article , ted frater
wrote:

SteveRay wrote:
I have had this cameo in my family for approximately 75 years. It has
European
origin.
=20
Notice the Hebrew lettering.
=20
I am asking for information regrading this piece as to its age, origi=
n
and
approximate value.
=20
Thanks in advance for looking.
=20
My apoolgies if this is not the appropriate group to post to.
=20
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...h/IMG_1090.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...h/IMG_1089.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...h/IMG_1088.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...h/IMG_1087.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...h/IMG_1084.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...h/IMG_1083.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...h/IMG_1082.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...h/IMG_1081.jpg
=20
Well, this is an interesting and I might say an unusual piece.
My first reaction is it doesnt add up.
why?
because the mount, the design and that its a cameo with a jewish=20
inscription are not complimentary.
The mount is of italian silver filigree circa 1910 to 1920,
The design could be contemporary in form, but with a Pre Raphaelite=20
or even medieval dress on the tambourine player.
The cameo execution is of a high standard,, who ever carved it new=20
exactly what he wanted to depict OR what he was told to do.
My guess is that it was a comission because it would be unusual for=20
such a design to be a stock item for sale in an italian jewellers of th=
e=20
time..
Its also somwhat licentious.an unlikely theme unless specifically reque=
sted.
who would wear this? difficult to say other than the fair maid=20
herself, Having been given to her for making someone very happy..
As to value, well? its worth whatever any one would pay for it.
the mount's not worth much , but the Cameo certainly is.
Its a lovely piece, Im envious!.
Id mount it in gold in the traditional way, with a rub over setting.
Origin? 1st choice Italy. 2nd Greece.
Age? 1800 to 1850. Ie earlier than the mount.
My guess the inscription could just perhaps be the home of the=20
comissioner..
=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
Ted,

thanks for the information. I have received some more info from
another source also that you will be interested in hearing. I will
post it later on this evening.

Many thanks!


Steve

ted frater wrote:


Well, this is an interesting and I might say an unusual piece.
My first reaction is it doesnt add up.
why?
because the mount, the design and that its a cameo with a jewish
inscription are not complimentary.

They are and quite common for the period.

The mount is of italian silver filigree circa 1910 to 1920,
The design could be contemporary in form, but with a Pre Raphaelite
or even medieval dress on the tambourine player.
The cameo execution is of a high standard,,

No it is not. It is quite average.

who ever carved it new
exactly what he wanted to depict OR what he was told to do.
My guess is that it was a comission because it would be unusual for
such a design to be a stock item for sale in an italian jewellers of the
time..
Its also somwhat licentious.an unlikely theme unless specifically requested.
who would wear this? difficult to say other than the fair maid
herself, Having been given to her for making someone very happy..
As to value, well? its worth whatever any one would pay for it.
the mount's not worth much , but the Cameo certainly is.
Its a lovely piece, Im envious!.

Actually, it's a rather pedestrian shell cameo of average quality at best.

Id mount it in gold in the traditional way, with a rub over setting.
Origin? 1st choice Italy. 2nd Greece.


Did you not read my post?

It was made in Jerusalem. It says so on the back of the cameo.


Age? 1800 to 1850. Ie earlier than the mount.
My guess the inscription could just perhaps be the home of the
comissioner..

You don't know what you are talking about. In this instance I do.

--
Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com

Abrasha wrote:
ted frater wrote:


Well, this is an interesting and I might say an unusual piece.
My first reaction is it doesnt add up.
why?
because the mount, the design and that its a cameo with a jewish
inscription are not complimentary.


They are and quite common for the period.


The mount is of italian silver filigree circa 1910 to 1920,
The design could be contemporary in form, but with a Pre Raphaelite
or even medieval dress on the tambourine player.
The cameo execution is of a high standard,,


No it is not. It is quite average.

who ever carved it new

exactly what he wanted to depict OR what he was told to do.
My guess is that it was a comission because it would be unusual for
such a design to be a stock item for sale in an italian jewellers of the
time..
Its also somwhat licentious.an unlikely theme unless specifically requested.
who would wear this? difficult to say other than the fair maid
herself, Having been given to her for making someone very happy..
As to value, well? its worth whatever any one would pay for it.
the mount's not worth much , but the Cameo certainly is.
Its a lovely piece, Im envious!.


Actually, it's a rather pedestrian shell cameo of average quality at best.


Id mount it in gold in the traditional way, with a rub over setting.
Origin? 1st choice Italy. 2nd Greece.



Did you not read my post?

It was made in Jerusalem. It says so on the back of the cameo.



Age? 1800 to 1850. Ie earlier than the mount.
My guess the inscription could just perhaps be the home of the
comissioner..


You don't know what you are talking about. In this instance I do.

Well I bow to your superior knowledge in this instance,
I guess I missed the bit in your post that said it was made in the
holy land.
not so holy right now tho,.
Well see what Steve has to say in due course as mentioned by him in
his last post.
Im saddened that you consider it average.
Interesting that we have a different view of its artistic qualities.

On Wed, 16 Aug 2006 20:14:43 -0700, in rec.crafts.jewelry ted frater
wrote:

Im saddened that you consider it average.
Interesting that we have a different view of its artistic qualities.

I'll agree with Abrasha on this one. Take another look at the carving and
"drawing" skills shown. It's an unusual subject, compared to most cameos seen
around, but a close look at the face shows it to be, well, somewhat harsh in
detailing. Not quite to the level of "crude" or poorly done, but still not to
the level of the beauty and graceful rendering one can find in the best work.
And the arms are awkwardly rendered, not very lifelike, and the hands? What ARE
those slivers? Fingers? The rest of the carving is decent enough, but only
that. Really fine cameos, like really skilled pen or pencil drawings, can show
astounding detail, dimensionality, depth, and lifelike reality. As one might
expect, finer qualities require rarer skill levels on the part of the carvers,
as well as the carver having the time and market to allow the production of
really fine work. Accordingly, most cameos you see, antique or especially
modern, are only average. That, of course, is sort of the meaning of the word
"average", isn't it.

Peter

I side with Abrasha and Peter. The cameo that you have asked about
unfortunately, is unusual only in that the young lady depicted has a
tambourine. The piece is not well executed, and other than the nice
detailing on the belt, "crude", actually is the word I was going to
use. Here is an example of a very nice cameo for you to compa


http://www.imagine.org.uk/adventure/...meo-brooch.jpg

The woman is carved gracefully, the lines are fine and distinct and
the details are exact. Still, I think most of us have seen even better.
Sentimental value is the rule on your cameo I believe.

Best,

Minkie


Peter W.. Rowe, wrote:
On Wed, 16 Aug 2006 20:14:43 -0700, in rec.crafts.jewelry ted frater
wrote:

Im saddened that you consider it average.
Interesting that we have a different view of its artistic qualities.

I'll agree with Abrasha on this one. Take another look at the carving and
"drawing" skills shown. It's an unusual subject, compared to most cameos seen
around, but a close look at the face shows it to be, well, somewhat harsh in
detailing. Not quite to the level of "crude" or poorly done, but still not to
the level of the beauty and graceful rendering one can find in the best work.
And the arms are awkwardly rendered, not very lifelike, and the hands? What ARE
those slivers? Fingers? The rest of the carving is decent enough, but only
that. Really fine cameos, like really skilled pen or pencil drawings, can show
astounding detail, dimensionality, depth, and lifelike reality. As one might
expect, finer qualities require rarer skill levels on the part of the carvers,
as well as the carver having the time and market to allow the production of
really fine work. Accordingly, most cameos you see, antique or especially
modern, are only average. That, of course, is sort of the meaning of the word
"average", isn't it.

Peter

On Thu, 17 Aug 2006 03:21:46 +0000, Peter W.. Rowe, wrote:

It's an unusual subject, compared to most cameos seen
around, but a close look at the face shows it to be, well, somewhat harsh in
detailing.

I agree with this, although I would add that protruding chins were
actually considered beautiful from the late 1800s through the 1920s.
Current examples of the survival of this standard of beauty are Rene Russo
and Drew Barrymore.

One had to have a big honking jaw to balance it, however, and the jaw
on the cameo is actually quite small.

It's in the handling of the arms and hands that the incompetence is
clearest to me.
--
mbstevens
http://mbstevens.com/

minkiemink wrote:
I side with Abrasha and Peter. The cameo that you have asked about
unfortunately, is unusual only in that the young lady depicted has a
tambourine.

The so called lady is Miriam, sister of Moses, depicted here dancing
and playing the tambourine after crossing the sea.

The piece is not well executed, and other than the nice
detailing on the belt, "crude", actually is the word I was going to
use.

It may be crude because of being made by a student of the Bezalel arts
and crafts academy (founded on 1906 in Jerusalem, which makes Ted's
dating inacurate)

and as for it's value -not just sentimental, it most defenitly has an
historical one!

NINA wrote:
minkiemink wrote:
I side with Abrasha and Peter. The cameo that you have asked about
unfortunately, is unusual only in that the young lady depicted has a
tambourine.

The so called lady is Miriam, sister of Moses, depicted here dancing
and playing the tambourine after crossing the sea.

The piece is not well executed, and other than the nice
detailing on the belt, "crude", actually is the word I was going to
use.

It may be crude because of being made by a student of the Bezalel arts
and crafts academy (founded on 1906 in Jerusalem, which makes Ted's
dating inacurate)

and as for it's value -not just sentimental, it most defenitly has an
historical one!

Uh....thank you Nina....perhaps you might read this thread from the
beginning, as that was the first information that Abrasha gave us. As
far as that goes, Miriam or not, sister or not.....neither being old,
nor depicting something historical makes any given piece of jewelry
attractive, well executed or valuable.

Cheers,

Minkie

No need to bite, Minkiemink.
I was trying to emphasize what Abrasha said and meant to add to the
context.
Since Bezalel is a milestone in Jewish art and it looks like the cameo
was made in its first years of existence - it does have a historical
value - not (only) because of the theme (within the context) or the
technique but because of the PLACE and TIME it was created.