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#1
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Pipe tamper
I am looking for someone to make me a sterling pipe tamper. If you are
intrestet please comtack me via email. Robert -- "God not only plays dice. He also sometimes throws the dice where they cannot be seen." Stephen Hawking |
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#2
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Pipe tamper
Robertfl wrote:
I am looking for someone to make me a sterling pipe tamper. If you are intrestet please comtack me via email. Robert Are you sure you want to have one in sterling silver. Silver just so happens to be the best conductor of heat on the planet. Unless you "tamper" you burning pipe real quickly, you are going the get your fingers a bit warm. But maybe that is not a real concern, because the process does not take long enough for the tamper to get hot. -- Abrasha http://www.abrasha.com |
#3
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Pipe tamper
"Abrasha" wrote in message
... Robertfl wrote: I am looking for someone to make me a sterling pipe tamper. If you are intrestet please comtack me via email. Robert Are you sure you want to have one in sterling silver. Silver just so happens to be the best conductor of heat on the planet. Actually, Gold happens to be a slightly better conductor of both electricity and heat than Silver but economic considerations limit it's applicabilityto really high-end systems. For technical explanation, start at http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu.../thercond.html Norm |
#4
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Pipe tamper
On Sun, 04 Jun 2006 08:06:19 -0700, in rec.crafts.jewelry "Norm Dresner"
wrote: "Abrasha" wrote in message . .. Robertfl wrote: I am looking for someone to make me a sterling pipe tamper. If you are intrestet please comtack me via email. Robert Are you sure you want to have one in sterling silver. Silver just so happens to be the best conductor of heat on the planet. Actually, Gold happens to be a slightly better conductor of both electricity and heat than Silver but economic considerations limit it's applicability to really high-end systems. For technical explanation, start at http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu.../thercond.html Norm Norm, Telling an experienced gold and silversmith he or she is wrong about the heat conductivity of a precious metal is something to be done with caution andfact checking (grin) We're, after all, the ones who experience it's effects directly, in burned fingers when hand holding a silver wire for annealing or melting an end, but can get away with it in gold, or when soldering, where silver pretty much insists on being heated overall, or you'll never get the joint hot enough for solder to flow, while with gold, well, it's not as critical. And your own data link backs up this experience. The page you link to itself has a chart link at the bottom, at http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu.../thrcn.html#c1 which shows silver at the top, and doesn't show gold at all. (OK, not so useful, butbear with me). It shows silver's thermal conductivity in W/m K at 406.0. At the bottom of that chart, there's another link, http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu...thrcn2.html#c1 to another chart, this one in periodic table format. It also shows silver's thermal conductivity, this time at 300K, in W/cm K, at 4.29. right below it is the thermal conductivity listed for gold, at 3.17. That places gold's thermal conductivity below both silver, and copper (4.01.) Again, this is data that any experienced jeweler will not know in terms of measurements and data, but will understand fully, just by experience. Silver is a significantly better conductor of heat than is copper, and a much better one than is gold. Mind you, it's still a very good thermal conductor at third in line, with aluminum a somewhat distant fourth place. The same ordering exists with electrical conductivity, as listed he (again found through links in the page you directed us to: http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu...elecon.html#c1 Silver is the best conductor, copper is second, gold is third, and aluminum is fourth. Where the orders are mixed up, of course, is in chemical reactivity amongthese metals. Gold is much less reactive than silver or copper. This is the reason why it is used for electrical contact coatings and fine wires in tiny circuits. Gold's greater ductility also means these exceedingly tiny wires, as usedin integrated circuit internal connections, will be stronger, less easily broken during assembly or by vibration in use. Silver and copper, though better conductors, are prone to oxidation and formation of sulphides, which we jewelers know as tarnish. These surface films then are insulators or at least, damaging to the conductivity of a connection. The freedom from oxidation is the big reason why silver is not used more, where we now use gold, in electrical contacts (which often are only gold over a more conductive copper conductor) And you will find, when you've got devices, like certain switches, that must withstand high current flows or arcing (when mercury won't work, since the liquid metal, though not a great conductor, is self repairing from arc damage...) , that sometimes the manufacturers will still use silver as the conductor. cheers (and thanks for the good data links. Good info. Peter Rowe |
#5
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Pipe tamper
"Peter W.. Rowe," wrote in message
... On Sun, 04 Jun 2006 08:06:19 -0700, in rec.crafts.jewelry "Norm Dresner" wrote: On Sun, 04 Jun 2006 08:06:19 -0700, in rec.crafts.jewelry "Norm Dresner" wrote: "Abrasha" wrote in message m... Robertfl wrote: I am looking for someone to make me a sterling pipe tamper. If youare intrestet please comtack me via email. Robert Are you sure you want to have one in sterling silver. Silver just so happens to be the best conductor of heat on the planet. Actually, Gold happens to be a slightly better conductor of both electricity and heat than Silver but economic considerations limit it's applicability to really high-end systems. For technical explanation, start at http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu.../thercond.html Norm Norm, Telling an experienced gold and silversmith he or she is wrong about the heat conductivity of a precious metal is something to be done with caution and fact checking (grin) We're, after all, the ones who experience it's effects directly, in burned fingers when hand holding a silver wire for annealing or melting an end, but can get away with it in gold, or when soldering, where silver pretty much insists on being heated overall, or you'll never get the joint hot enough for solder to flow, while with gold, well, it's not as critical. And your own data link backs up this experience. The page you link toitself has a chart link at the bottom, at http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu.../thrcn.html#c1 which shows silver at the top, and doesn't show gold at all. (OK, not so useful, but bear with me). It shows silver's thermal conductivity in W/m K at 406.0. At the bottom of that chart, there's another link, http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu...thrcn2.html#c1 to another chart, this one in periodic table format. It also shows silver's thermal conductivity, this time at 300K, in W/cm K, at 4.29. right below it isthe thermal conductivity listed for gold, at 3.17. That places gold's thermal conductivity below both silver, and copper (4.01.) Again, this is data that any experienced jeweler will not know in termsof measurements and data, but will understand fully, just by experience. Silver is a significantly better conductor of heat than is copper, and a much better one than is gold. Mind you, it's still a very good thermal conductor at third in line, with aluminum a somewhat distant fourth place. The same ordering exists with electrical conductivity, as listed he (again found through links in the page you directed us to: http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu...elecon.html#c1 Silver is the best conductor, copper is second, gold is third, and aluminum is fourth. Where the orders are mixed up, of course, is in chemical reactivity among these metals. Gold is much less reactive than silver or copper. This is thereason why it is used for electrical contact coatings and fine wires in tiny circuits. Gold's greater ductility also means these exceedingly tiny wires, as used in integrated circuit internal connections, will be stronger, less easily broken during assembly or by vibration in use. Silver and copper, though better conductors, are prone to oxidation and formation of sulphides, which wejewelers know as tarnish. These surface films then are insulators or at least, damaging to the conductivity of a connection. The freedom from oxidation is thebig reason why silver is not used more, where we now use gold, in electrical contacts (which often are only gold over a more conductive copper conductor) And you will find, when you've got devices, like certain switches, that must withstand high current flows or arcing (when mercury won't work, sincethe liquid metal, though not a great conductor, is self repairing from arc damage...) , that sometimes the manufacturers will still use silver as the conductor. cheers (and thanks for the good data links. Good info. Peter Rowe Peter Telling a (mathematical) physicist that he's made a mistake in the properties of solids is something to be done with caution. From the Handbook of Physics and Chemistry, 83rd Edition, on pages 12-45ff there's a table of the Electrical Resistivity of Pure Metals. At low temperatures, Silver is indeed more conductive than Gold. But the conductivities get closer together as the temperature increases. Since we're interested in the high-temperature region for jewelry manufacture, I suspect that the differences aren't as great as you suggest. Also, interestingly, on p12-221, there's a table of the thermal conductivity of Metals vs. temperature. Both are decreasing as a function of increasing temperature. Up to 1200K (~700C), Silver is still more conductive than Gold, but the slope of the Silver curve is steeper than that of Gold so they may cross at some higher temperature. So yes, you're right but I'm not totally wrong either, although in the regime of familiar temperatures Silver and Copper do beat Gold. Norm |
#6
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Pipe tamper
Norm Dresner wrote:
"Peter W.. Rowe," wrote in message ... On Sun, 04 Jun 2006 08:06:19 -0700, in rec.crafts.jewelry "Norm Dresner" wrote: On Sun, 04 Jun 2006 08:06:19 -0700, in rec.crafts.jewelry "Norm Dresner" wrote: "Abrasha" wrote in message om... Robertfl wrote: I am looking for someone to make me a sterling pipe tamper. If youare intrestet please comtack me via email. Robert Are you sure you want to have one in sterling silver. Silver just so happens to be the best conductor of heat on the planet. Actually, Gold happens to be a slightly better conductor of both electricity and heat than Silver but economic considerations limit it's applicability to really high-end systems. For technical explanation, start at http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu.../thercond.html Norm Norm, Telling an experienced gold and silversmith he or she is wrong about the heat conductivity of a precious metal is something to be done with caution and fact checking (grin) We're, after all, the ones who experience it's effects directly, in burned fingers when hand holding a silver wire for annealing or melting an end, but can get away with it in gold, or when soldering, where silver pretty muchinsists on being heated overall, or you'll never get the joint hot enough for solder to flow, while with gold, well, it's not as critical. And your own data link backs up this experience. The page you link to itself has a chart link at the bottom, at http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu.../thrcn.html#c1 whichshows silver at the top, and doesn't show gold at all. (OK, not so useful, but bear with me). It shows silver's thermal conductivity in W/m K at 406.0. At the bottom of that chart, there's another link, http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu...thrcn2.html#c1 to another chart, this one in periodic table format. It also shows silver's thermal conductivity, this time at 300K, in W/cm K, at 4.29. right below it is the thermal conductivity listed for gold, at 3.17. That places gold's thermal conductivity below both silver, and copper (4.01.) Again, this is data that any experienced jeweler will not know in terms of measurements and data, but will understand fully, just by experience. Silver is a significantly better conductor of heat than is copper, and a muchbetter one than is gold. Mind you, it's still a very good thermal conductor at third in line, with aluminum a somewhat distant fourth place. The same ordering exists with electrical conductivity, as listed hereagain found through links in the page you directed us to: http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu...elecon.html#c1 Silver is the best conductor, copper is second, gold is third, and aluminum is fourth. Where the orders are mixed up, of course, is in chemical reactivity among these metals. Gold is much less reactive than silver or copper. This is the reason why it is used for electrical contact coatings and fine wires in tiny circuits. Gold's greater ductility also means these exceedingly tiny wires, as used in integrated circuit internal connections, will be stronger, less easilybroken during assembly or by vibration in use. Silver and copper, though better conductors, are prone to oxidation and formation of sulphides, which we jewelers know as tarnish. These surface films then are insulators or at least,damaging to the conductivity of a connection. The freedom from oxidation is the big reason why silver is not used more, where we now use gold, in electrical contacts (which often are only gold over a more conductive copper conductor) And you will find, when you've got devices, like certain switches, that must withstand high current flows or arcing (when mercury won't work, since the liquid metal, though not a great conductor, is self repairing from arc damage...) , that sometimes the manufacturers will still use silver asthe conductor. cheers (and thanks for the good data links. Good info. Peter Rowe Peter Telling a (mathematical) physicist that he's made a mistake in the properties of solids is something to be done with caution. From the Handbook of Physics and Chemistry, 83rd Edition, on pages 12-45ff there's a table of the Electrical Resistivity of Pure Metals. At low temperatures, Silver is indeed more conductive than Gold. But the conductivities get closer together as the temperature increases. Since we're interested in the high-temperature region for jewelry manufacture, I suspect that the differences aren't as great as you suggest. Also, interestingly, on p12-221, there's a table of the thermal conductivity of Metals vs. temperature. Both are decreasing as a function of increasing temperature. Up to 1200K (~700C), Silver is still more conductive than Gold, but the slope of the Silver curve is steeper than that of Gold sothey may cross at some higher temperature. So yes, you're right but I'm not totally wrong either, although in the regime of familiar temperatures Silver and Copper do beat Gold. Norm How do the heat conductivity figures of sterling and - say 14K yellow gold alloys compare at 'brazing' (soldering temps) or, for the purposes of the OP , at tobacco ignition temps. Also, a pipe tamper could be made in such a way that it folded and the pin/tube used in the hinge could be stainless or titanium or other low thermal conductivity material. Or, some nice bolsters or a handle could be attached to help insulate the fingers from the brief heat that might be transmitted. Easily do-able I'd suspect. Carl -- to reply, change ( .not) to ( .net) |
#7
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Pipe tamper
Carl 1 Lucky Texan wrote:
... Also, a pipe tamper could be made in such a way that it folded and the pin/tube used in the hinge could be stainless or titanium or other low thermal conductivity material. Or, some nice bolsters or a handle could be attached to help insulate the fingers from the brief heat that might be transmitted. Easily do-able I'd suspect. Carl Or just give it enough mass to keep the pipe from being able to heat it up. Especially in the time it takes to tamp a pipe. - (the other) Carl |
#8
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Pipe tamper
Norm Dresner wrote:
"Abrasha" wrote in message ... Robertfl wrote: I am looking for someone to make me a sterling pipe tamper. If you are intrestet please comtack me via email. Robert Are you sure you want to have one in sterling silver. Silver just so happens to be the best conductor of heat on the planet. Actually, Gold happens to be a slightly better conductor of both electricity and heat than Silver No! With all due respect, you do not know what you are talking about. Silver is the best conductor of both electricity and heat. Copper is a close second. Gold is not even close. It's a distant third http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conductivity (see "Some typical electrical conductivities") "Silver - Highest electrical conductivity of any metal" http://hypertextbook.com/physics/ele...ty/resistance/ (see middle of the page "Resistivity of Selected Materials") but economic considerations limit it's applicability to really high-end systems. For technical explanation, start at http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu.../thercond.html Interesting. You don't seem to understand what the text on that page is about. And you give us a link to a page with many links, where you obviously have not followed some of the links yourself. Besides, that page itself says nothing of electrical conductivity or thermal conductivity, but rather talks about the "The Wiedemann-Franz Law" But for your convenience, I have followed the links for you: http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu.../thrcn.html#c1 http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu...elecon.html#c1 http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu.../rstiv.html#c1 and then there is also http://www.standnes.no/chemix/period...vity-table.htm http://environmentalchemistry.com/yo...c/thermal.html Conductivity: Silver (http://environmentalchemistry.com/yogi/periodic/Ag.html) Electrical: 0.63 106/cm ohm (that's 10 to the 6th power, not 106) Thermal: 4.29 W/cmK Copper: http://environmentalchemistry.com/yogi/periodic/Cu.html Electrical: 0.596 106/cm ohm Thermal: 4.01 W/cmK Gold: http://environmentalchemistry.com/yogi/periodic/Au.html Electrical: 0.452 106/cm ohm Thermal: 3.17 W/cmK You can put your foot in your mouth now. -- Abrasha http://www.abrasha.com |
#9
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Pipe tamper
Carl 1 Lucky Texan wrote:
Norm Dresner wrote: Telling a (mathematical) physicist that he's made a mistake in the properties of solids is something to be done with caution. Oh please, blow it out your ear! From the Handbook of Physics and Chemistry, 83rd Edition, on pages 12-45ff there's a table of the Electrical Resistivity of Pure Metals. Blah, blah, blah, At low temperatures, Silver is indeed more conductive than Gold. But the conductivities get closer together as the temperature increases. You want tables, I'll give you tables: http://www.efunda.com/materials/elem...?Element_ID=Ag http://www.efunda.com/materials/elem...?Element_ID=Cu http://www.efunda.com/materials/elem...?Element_ID=Au For silver, copper and gold respectively. At every temperature (from 3degrees K to 1200 degree K) Silver is 1, copper is 2 and gold is 3. Since we're interested in the high-temperature region for jewelry manufacture, I suspect that the differences aren't as great as you suggest. Oh yes they are. Also, interestingly, on p12-221, there's a table of the thermal conductivity of Metals vs. temperature. Both are decreasing as a function of increasing temperature. Up to 1200K (~700C), Actually 1200 degrees K is about 926.85 °C, ... some mathematician you are. Oh BTW, this is a temperature well below temperatures at which both silver and gold alloys are soldered. 1200 degrees K (1700.33 degrees F) is the temperature at which platinum is welded. So not of concern here. Silver is still more conductive than Gold, but the slope of the Silver curve is steeper than that of Gold sothey may cross at some higher temperature. "may" being the operative word here. And not at all of concern in the process of jewelry making. Or, IOW, show me. So yes, you're right but I'm not totally wrong either, although in the regime of familiar temperatures Silver and Copper do beat Gold. Face it pal, you are wrong. -- Abrasha http://www.abrasha.com |
#10
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Pipe tamper
"Abrasha" wrote in message
... Carl 1 Lucky Texan wrote: Norm Dresner wrote: Also, interestingly, on p12-221, there's a table of the thermal conductivity of Metals vs. temperature. Both are decreasing as a function of increasing temperature. Up to 1200K (~700C), Actually 1200 degrees K is about 926.85 °C, ... some mathematician you are. A typo. 0C is 273.something K. I hope you never make one in public, Norm |
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