so....you want to talk copying?

Jill -- I can just imagine. it is the nature of the internet. A long, long
time ago (in a place far away) my auctions were copied on Ebay. In fact,
everything I did was copied, LOL. I was the first one to put "BB" in the ad
line so that you could find my auctions amongst the masses; now it is a
standard. If I sold anything that went for good money, someone else had the
exact same thing up the following week.

It drove my friends crazy. It never bothered me, because they were just
following along behind my success. And, I always had another good idea. The
thing that was different with me is that I don't mass produce anything -- I
find it too boring to make several of the same thing, so I just don't. With
stringing beads, it is easy not to do this. If I were in polyclay, it would be
MUCH easier to make many of the same thing and then sell them over time. I
know you don;t do this, however, don't ever doubt your talent. Those other
folks are just batting clean-up behind you.


Becki
"In between the moon and you, the angels have a better view of the crumbling
difference between wrong and right." -- Counting Crows

Without a copyright there isn't much you can do. If it is copyrighted then
you can make them stop making it.
Roxan
"tatercat" wrote in message
om...
"roxan" wrote in message
...
I have a question for you. If they don't copyright it is there much you
can
do? This is a problem in every creative medium.
Roxan


Do you mean if the copycat doesn't try to copyright the copy? Not sure
what you're asking.


Just for fun..here are the copyright laws in plain english for those
of us that aren't lawyers. #3 is the rule that they don't seem to
understand.

In the United States, there are 7 basic rights that the copyright code
recognizes - and that the copyright holder ALONE controls:

1) The reproductive right: the right to control reproduction of the
work
in whatever form it would copy.

2) The distribution right: that is the right to control distribution
of
copies of the work (in whatever form you include or exclude).

3) The adaptive right: the right to produce (or allow others to
produce)
derivative works based on the copyrighted work.

4) The performance right: that is the right to perform the
copyrighted
work publicly (generally reserved for music, plays, operas,
etc...)

5) The display right: that is the right to display the copyrighted
work
publicly (which separately refers to display of an original OR
display
of reproductions).

6) The integrity right: that is the right of an author to prevent the
use
of his or her name as the author of a distorted version of the
work,
to prevent intentional distortion of the work, and to prevent
destruction of the work (in reference to one of a kind or
extremely
limited edition works, generally artistic. When dealing with
destruction, special conditions apply, check with the Copyright
Office.)

7) The attribution right (also referred to as the paternity right):
that
is the right of the author to claim authorship of the work and to
prevent the use of his or her name as the author of a work he or
she
did not create (or in reference to an altered work).

A copyright allows you control of all of these rights, and they cannot
be
taken from you (except in VERY LIMITED legal actions). Only you have
the
right to control how these are applied.

I don't know how much clearer it could be.

Jill

I think the repetition you get when you work with canes can engender such an
attitude. I hope you come up with some good tactics.

Tina


"tatercat" wrote ...
...and it isn't a handful of individuals. It's rampant. It's time
people learned that if they see it somewhere other than instructional
or copyright free materials...you can't make and sell it.

If we don't start taking this situation serious...polymer artists will
never be respected.

Jill

Actually, when there is a copyright violation, all you really get it some
legal ammunition to use in filing a suit to recover *damages*. Copyrights
and patents in no way prevent someone from copying.

Tina


"roxan" wrote in message
...
Without a copyright there isn't much you can do. If it is copyrighted then
you can make them stop making it.
Roxan
"tatercat" wrote in message
om...
"roxan" wrote in message
...
I have a question for you. If they don't copyright it is there much
you
can
do? This is a problem in every creative medium.
Roxan


Do you mean if the copycat doesn't try to copyright the copy? Not sure
what you're asking.


Just for fun..here are the copyright laws in plain english for those
of us that aren't lawyers. #3 is the rule that they don't seem to
understand.

In the United States, there are 7 basic rights that the copyright code
recognizes - and that the copyright holder ALONE controls:

1) The reproductive right: the right to control reproduction of the
work
in whatever form it would copy.

2) The distribution right: that is the right to control distribution
of
copies of the work (in whatever form you include or exclude).

3) The adaptive right: the right to produce (or allow others to
produce)
derivative works based on the copyrighted work.

4) The performance right: that is the right to perform the
copyrighted
work publicly (generally reserved for music, plays, operas,
etc...)

5) The display right: that is the right to display the copyrighted
work
publicly (which separately refers to display of an original OR
display
of reproductions).

6) The integrity right: that is the right of an author to prevent the
use
of his or her name as the author of a distorted version of the
work,
to prevent intentional distortion of the work, and to prevent
destruction of the work (in reference to one of a kind or
extremely
limited edition works, generally artistic. When dealing with
destruction, special conditions apply, check with the Copyright
Office.)

7) The attribution right (also referred to as the paternity right):
that
is the right of the author to claim authorship of the work and to
prevent the use of his or her name as the author of a work he or
she
did not create (or in reference to an altered work).

A copyright allows you control of all of these rights, and they cannot
be
taken from you (except in VERY LIMITED legal actions). Only you have
the
right to control how these are applied.

I don't know how much clearer it could be.

Jill

In article ,
says...

I've seen a lot of original work, and probably even more copies. With very
few exceptions, the copies have all been poor reflections of the original,
rather like zillionth generation photocopies.

When someone like Jill creates an original piece, there is an energy
contained in the finished product that is invariably lacking in copies. It's
like the imagination, love and joy of creation have been washed out by the
act of trying to create a duplicate. It's like the difference between an
original Renoir and a paint by number on black velvet - they may have the
same subject, but in no way are they the same thing.

That's why I look at other people's work for *inspiration*, but don't try to
make exact copies of things. It's no fun if you're too busy looking back and
forth from the original to your item making sure everything is just the same!

Celine

--
Handmade jewelry at http://www.rubylane.com/shops/starcat
"Only the powers of evil claim that doing good is boring."
-- Diane Duane, _Nightfall at Algemron_

you don't have to formally file a copyright.
just putting the (c) symbol on it does it - even if you haven't filed
the paper work.

and you don't even HAVE To do that anymore - technically... LOL
Cheryl
last semester of lawschool! yipee!
A HREF="http://www.dragonbeads.com" DRAGON BEADS /A
Flameworked beads and glass
http://www.dragonbeads.com/

"roxan" wrote in message ...
Without a copyright there isn't much you can do. If it is copyrighted then
you can make them stop making it.
Roxan

Roxan...

Since the 80's....you don't even have to register for work to be
copyrighted. It's called 'implied copyright'.

Jill

Heck I can't even copy myself! I wasn't feeling like I was in any sort
of trouble with that. Frankly, I can't draw to save my life, and I am a
great admirer of Jill's artistry and craftsmanship.

I know one situation that Jill was in and it got very ugly. I am sorry
that the ugly attitudes are still pestering her. My only hope is that
everyone understands that this issue crosses through many mediums. PC
is no worse than any other. The only thing that may make it easier for
PC copiers is the fact that the raw materials are cheaper and more
available than propane tanks and torches.

My husband would quiz me on MSDS sheets every day if I wanted to have a
propose tank in the house. A toaster over requires a whole lot less
scrutiny. And, my husband is a pretty nice guy, too; he just worries
about safety a lot.

jayne



Christina Peterson wrote:
I know you aren't copying anyone, Jayne. Your work is so original.

As far as your work goes, Jill. I don't really know what you're referring
to, but I have seen some things similar to yours every once in a while, But
without your trademark delicacy. I'm sorry to hear about this.

Tina


"Jayzor" wrote in message
...

I know one situation which you are refering to, and I have little doubt
there have been others. I have been apalled by some of their arguments
advocating copying and by the sheer number of people copying your work,
however, I wish you would not lump all polymer artists in with this
group. Not everyone in the Polymer Community operates this way.

Unfortunately, I have seen just as many copying situations in the
Polymer community as I have in the jewelry, beading and lampworking
community. It's a handful of individuals that make bad choices, and
these events happen regardless of the medium.

jayne




tatercat wrote:

Walk a mile in my shoes....

The polymer clay community has to be one of the worst concerning the
copying battle. To most of them...if they can see it...they can try to
copy and sell it.

When I call a person I get trashed from one end of the internet to the
other...called names I shall not repeat here...told I should move on
to something else when someone figures out what I'm doing and has work
up for sale.

They constantly praise the more famous clayers for 'sharing all their
ideas'...bunk. Never mind those people make their money from promoting
clay for the manufacturers.

The other copying thread made me sick for the original holder of the
name. I feel for her.

Jill Newman ^..^ Tatercat Studio

Agreed.

What would be even more wonderful is if people could put down the books,
the videos and all of the pictures to create something that is from
their own mind! It keeps amazing me how much we underestimate the power
of our own minds, hands and soul. A lot of great beauty can be found
without a picture.

jayne


tatercat wrote:

Jayzor wrote in message ...

I know one situation which you are refering to, and I have little doubt
there have been others. I have been apalled by some of their arguments
advocating copying and by the sheer number of people copying your work,
however, I wish you would not lump all polymer artists in with this
group. Not everyone in the Polymer Community operates this way.

Unfortunately, I have seen just as many copying situations in the
Polymer community as I have in the jewelry, beading and lampworking
community. It's a handful of individuals that make bad choices, and
these events happen regardless of the medium.

jayne


Hey Jayzor....

I didn't lump all polymer users in the copy category...but I have been
involved with several facets of the arts and for my
experience....polymer has the most copycats by far.

...and it isn't a handful of individuals. It's rampant. It's time
people learned that if they see it somewhere other than instructional
or copyright free materials...you can't make and sell it.

If we don't start taking this situation serious...polymer artists will
never be respected.

Jill

I have to add my weight behind Jill here.


I guess it isnt actually the copying itself that I see as being
greater than other crafts (although, like Jill , in my experience it
has been) , it is the blatant "couldnt care less" attitude that I see
in a lot of the copiers. Jayne is so right to say it isnt all clayers
and we shouldnt tar all clayers with the same brush - just I think
Jill is saying that it is more common in the clay world compared to
other art / crafts she has been involved with and I can only say I
agree.

I have written articles on clay techniques, and a book also now. I
also make beads that I sell on Justbeads. I have lost count of the
times that I have been emailed by clayers DEMANDING that I share the
techniques I use to make my beads so they can sell them too. I have
even had people pretending to be interested customers just trying to
get me to talk about my "process" and I know darn well who they are! I
have had things copied so utterly blatently then have the person cop a
strop with ME for calling them on it.

It isnt the copying that is even the galling part. We are not so naive
to believe that copying doesnt happen and I am not even talking about
"being influenced" here. That is a whole different conversation. I am
talking about blatant copying where someone sees something that sells
well and just thinks "I could do that" and then proceeds to try to
copy what is SELLING purely to cash in on someone else's style and
product that they have taken time to develop, without thinking of the
ethical standpoint.

But it is the attitude - that somehow EVERY clay technique should be
automatically placed into the public domain, and anyone who doesnt is
a grade A git for not sharing. That is what saddens me. The lack of
sisterhood, for want of a better word. I have heard so many times how
people just want to "expand their art" - but there are literally
thousands of projects out there for free on the net, there are so many
magazine articles, books , videos - where the author is earning a
little for sharing her expertise. There is more than enough out there
to stretch and teach anyone pretty much all there is to know about
clay and it doesnt need to cost a penny. We are ALL constantly still
learning, that is what is so GREAT about polymer clay as a medium.

But, those who are so desperate to try to figure out techniques of
artists who are sucessful at selling their work do so usually because
they want a slice of the financial pie that they are convinced could
so easily be theirs too if they just made and sold beads like "so and
so" or "whatshername".

It just saddens me that there is not the same level of respect for
artists who sell finished products as there is for authors and
teachers in the clay field. I have seen the clay community be so
respectful for teaches and authors. No clayer would openly infringe
the copyright of a teachers class notes or a mag article by
photocopying it - and that is heartwarming. I just wish that same
respect extended to the sellers of polyclay beads. I can only speak
for my experience, but it IS upsetting to have guilt trips thrown at
you constantly, by people who are just out to try to sell a product
that looks as close to yours as they can get it.

Ironically enough - whenever somebody has emailed me to ask a
question about something I have shared in an article or a book -they
are so respectful - every question is prefixed with a "I will
understand if you dont want to share but can you tell me ......" and I
think well, of COURSE I want to share, that is why I wrote the
article! But the emails from people wanting to know the techniques I
use for the beads I sell - well, its a totally different story!

I dont want to comment on the whole ethics of "style" versus
"techniques" that is not my point here, and I couldnt come up with a
good way of defining that anyway. My point is purely about how there
is very little respect in the clay community for artists selling
finished product as opposed to the respect for authors / teachers etc
and I wish it was something that we all paid more attention to.

Emma