OT proposed discussion: How did you learn to be a "woman" rather than a "girl"?

On Mon, 28 Aug 2006 10:12:24 -0500, Tricia wrote
(in article . com):



Besides the employment issue, I have been pondering trying to find out
how to "do" make up properly for a while now -- simply so I *can* do it
when the mood/situation strikes -- like going out for a nice evening
with my husband or to a wedding, etc.

Hence, realizing I have virtually no knowledge in an area many women
seem to have plenty, I thought I'd ask where that knowledge came
from...where did you learn it?

Pondering,
Tricia


I learned to put on makeup at lots of slumber parties, and yes, sometimes
ended up looking like a clown. But for your immediate situation, may I
suggest sitting down with someone who sells Mary Kay or Avon or something
similar. The consultants can often teach you how to apply the makeup.

Maureen

Okay, I'm overwhelmed! I tried individually replying last night and my
newsserver yelled at me that I'd posted more than I was allowed to and
it wouldn't let me post anything else (while I'm typing I don't even
know if this will go through but if you see it, it did).

Thank you! Please don't snap at each other. No, I'm not asking
anywhere else -- I have no where else I even feel remotely comfortable
asking.

I guess I'll have to do a more generalized response -- which I guess is
good so I won't be repeating myself as much.

1. I had DH take a picture this morning (neck down) of what I wore to
my last interview -- I'm having trouble getting yahoo photo to go to
the upload page at the moment. One thing I noticed in the picture was
that I didn't take the ponytail holder off my wrist when he took the
picture -- BUT I *KNOW* I took it off before the interview because I
specifically made sure I did and left it at home so I couldn't
inadvertently put it back on my wrist or even worse, in my hair. When
I get that picture figured out and uploaded, I'll post. I feel
comfortable that what I wore was nice, professional comfortable. I
would initially have had a tough time coming up with more outfits to
wear during the week until I could go shopping but I could have come up
with something.

2. I did not have him take a picture that included my face and hair --
I was freshly scrubbed for the interview and not so today before 8 in
the morning.

3. I remembered this morning that I had worn lipstick to the most
recent interview and my hair was freshly washed (not dripping wet but
perhaps a tad still damp -- it was a humid day), I had used a styling
agent in it (I'm not real good at that but at least this time it didn't
make my hair heavier again - unfortunately, it didn't help much with
the humidity frizz either) no headband, no ponytail (those concerns
came up mostly because if I get a job, I know that's probably what I'll
wind up reverting to when I feel comfortable)

4. No mall listed closer than Traverse City -- guess the make up
counter somewhere will be a bit.

5. Checked online (as best I could) and found no MK reps in Petoskey
but I'll still ask around -- maybe someone knows one in the immediate
area that I'm not familiar with being in the immediate area (probably
didn't make any sense...basically I'm not real familiar with what is
close and what isn't up here)

6. Volunteering -- I currently volunteer at the public library in the
children's department doing database entry, etc. I like the
individuals there but I wouldn't consider any a *friend* in the sense
that I need one right now. Guild meeting should be the evening of the
second Wed of the Month so I'll see about trying that out again. I was
so intimidated and felt out of place when I went before -- it was my
first meeting and I didn't know what to expect and what I found didn't
meet what I wanted, etc. Okay, I just called and left a message for
Pastor at church remindering her again that I had volunteered to work
on getting a web page up and running so we'll see.

7. Shopping -- for clothes, make up, etc. Hard to do when the funds
aren't there (we are so far in debt due to student loans, moving
expenses, previous bad spending habits, etc.) and yet, hard not to do
when needed for a good image for work. I have to stick with relatively
easy to afford items right now and make do.

8. Nails -- got pictures of them too to share when things communicate
properly.

okay, I've run out of responses at the moment, now I'm praying this
let's me post....thank you for the support, the suggestions, letting me
know I'm not the only one.

Tricia

On Mon, 28 Aug 2006 15:55:37 GMT, Georg wrote:

Tricia wrote:
Hence, realizing I have virtually no knowledge in an area many women
seem to have plenty, I thought I'd ask where that knowledge came
from...where did you learn it?

I learned 75% of my make up expertise in the theater.

Me too.

The rest I picked
up watching my mom or my older sister or my friends.

Here we diverge.
I grew up belonging to a church that didn't even allow wedding rings
until the 70's. One of the ladies wore false nails to church once and
it was a 90 days scandal.
I started wearing mascara to school when I was about 14 and ended up
in an intervention, darn near got myself exorcised in fact.

I've learned to do make-up pretty well.
I would say the biggest problem, and I know that this is one shared by
a LOT of people, is the light in the area where you are putting it on.
You get used to it, then you change lightbulbs and find yourself out
of doors in sunlight looking like you have either put on a trollop
face or forgotten to put on any make-up at all.
Get thee a color corrected true light bulb and put it where you do
your make up.
Then practce.
Make-up washes off, so put some on everyday, even when you are staying
in by yourself. Put it on, take it off, get comfortable with it.

So far as self teaching, go to the library and see if they have any
books by Kevyn Aucoin. Excellent books by an excellent make-up
artist.

So far as hair, I hate hate hate having short hair. I cannot abide it
hanging all over my face, sticking to my neck, and when it is short it
tends to frizz up. So I keep it long and it stays where I put it, or
I can simply tie it back, or I can make an up do as fancy as I need
it. Very definitely a YMMV situation. My hair is not very amenable
to being styled.

NightMist
--
The wolf that understands fire has much to eat.

Pics are in -- had to use a different account than the one I wanted
to...oh well....I don't know if it is color true or not in the pictures
so in the outfit one -- waist down is all navy not black.

Tricia

http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/chirparrooo/my_photos

Tricia - are you looking for a teaching job or a job in a school? I am
on our district's district-wide interview committee and on the
school's committee. Maybe I can help you since I know what different
people are looking for in candidates.

Although first impressions do count, we also REALLY listen to what
people are saying. Anything distracting distracts the listener from
what you are saying. We interviewed on candidate with a snake tatoo
around her ankle and up her leg. It was noticed as soon as she walked
in and was what people remembered about her. They didn't really recall
her qualifications or what she said in response to questions.

Linda
PATCHogue, NY

On 29 Aug 2006 06:22:33 -0700, "Tricia"
wrote:

Okay, I'm overwhelmed! I tried individually replying last night and my
newsserver yelled at me that I'd posted more than I was allowed to and
it wouldn't let me post anything else (while I'm typing I don't even
know if this will go through but if you see it, it did).

Thank you! Please don't snap at each other. No, I'm not asking
anywhere else -- I have no where else I even feel remotely comfortable
asking.

I guess I'll have to do a more generalized response -- which I guess is
good so I won't be repeating myself as much.

1. I had DH take a picture this morning (neck down) of what I wore to
my last interview -- I'm having trouble getting yahoo photo to go to
the upload page at the moment. One thing I noticed in the picture was
that I didn't take the ponytail holder off my wrist when he took the
picture -- BUT I *KNOW* I took it off before the interview because I
specifically made sure I did and left it at home so I couldn't
inadvertently put it back on my wrist or even worse, in my hair. When
I get that picture figured out and uploaded, I'll post. I feel
comfortable that what I wore was nice, professional comfortable. I
would initially have had a tough time coming up with more outfits to
wear during the week until I could go shopping but I could have come up
with something.

2. I did not have him take a picture that included my face and hair --
I was freshly scrubbed for the interview and not so today before 8 in
the morning.

3. I remembered this morning that I had worn lipstick to the most
recent interview and my hair was freshly washed (not dripping wet but
perhaps a tad still damp -- it was a humid day), I had used a styling
agent in it (I'm not real good at that but at least this time it didn't
make my hair heavier again - unfortunately, it didn't help much with
the humidity frizz either) no headband, no ponytail (those concerns
came up mostly because if I get a job, I know that's probably what I'll
wind up reverting to when I feel comfortable)

4. No mall listed closer than Traverse City -- guess the make up
counter somewhere will be a bit.

5. Checked online (as best I could) and found no MK reps in Petoskey
but I'll still ask around -- maybe someone knows one in the immediate
area that I'm not familiar with being in the immediate area (probably
didn't make any sense...basically I'm not real familiar with what is
close and what isn't up here)

6. Volunteering -- I currently volunteer at the public library in the
children's department doing database entry, etc. I like the
individuals there but I wouldn't consider any a *friend* in the sense
that I need one right now. Guild meeting should be the evening of the
second Wed of the Month so I'll see about trying that out again. I was
so intimidated and felt out of place when I went before -- it was my
first meeting and I didn't know what to expect and what I found didn't
meet what I wanted, etc. Okay, I just called and left a message for
Pastor at church remindering her again that I had volunteered to work
on getting a web page up and running so we'll see.

7. Shopping -- for clothes, make up, etc. Hard to do when the funds
aren't there (we are so far in debt due to student loans, moving
expenses, previous bad spending habits, etc.) and yet, hard not to do
when needed for a good image for work. I have to stick with relatively
easy to afford items right now and make do.

8. Nails -- got pictures of them too to share when things communicate
properly.

okay, I've run out of responses at the moment, now I'm praying this
let's me post....thank you for the support, the suggestions, letting me
know I'm not the only one.

Tricia

Witchy Stitcher wrote:
Tricia - are you looking for a teaching job or a job in a school?

Not in the k-12 system -- my certificate expired in June and I won't be
renewing it any time soon (I need more college classes to meet the
renewal requirements) because healthwise and stresswise, I can't work
in my chosen field anymore. I'm one of those teachers who gives
everything to the job and it just about drove me insane *snicker* In
all seriousness though, as far as I know teaching full time is
currently adverse to my health. However, I'm in a nasty catch 22
because in many regards I am overqualified for the positions my health
can handle and so I don't get hired (at least DH thinks it is
overqualification and he could be right on some of it)

The job I interviewed for (and at least this time I *got* an interview
-- so many times this past year I've just gotten a rejection letter
without even the benefit of an interview) was a part time secretary in
the open computer lab/testing center on the campus of the college DH
teaches at. It would have been doing secretarial stuff as well as
being available to assist if needed with the computer lab. I worked in
a computer lab most my college career, even being student supervisor
for a few years and running the lab. I really wanted this job, more
than any other I've applied for in the last year -- it is hitting kind
of hard that I haven't gotten it. I really thought things went well,
except for nearly walking into a glass panel next to the open door as I
was turning around to leave the office (I hadn't realized I was so far
back -- I didn't bang into it but it was close. My mind was on the
interview, not where I was going *blush*).

A big slam to my sense of worthwhileness came about a week ago: My big
tutoring lead this year so far has fallen apart because I am not
familiar with local school's exact curriculum in the middle school --
hard to become familiar with something when the school doesn't
cooperate, despite requests for information. I've actually been given
the brush off by the assistant principal when I inquired as to local
middle school curriculum for the homeschooling I was doing last spring.

Anyway, it's one big sense of I can't do anything right these days.

I lost the point of what I was saying.....
Tricia

I also think going to guild meetings won't really help make a lot of new
friends. You need to get involved in the guild with committees and
workshops so you have a one to one contact with people. The meetings are
just too busy to have any meaningful conversation with anyone and many
people only get to see their guild friends at the meetings. So they are
busy catching up with them, rather than meeting new people. This is a
problem in every guild, no matter how many hospitality committees or door
greeters you appoint. If the guild puts small groups (bees) together, you
might check into signing up for one of those if you're interested. I don't
know how long you've lived there, but "I" think it takes about two years in
a new place before things start to feel like home. Maybe I'm a slow
adjuster.
KJ

"mini Mini" wrote in message
. 54...
"Tricia" wrote in news:1156858826.246122.14340
@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com:

Pics are in -- had to use a different account than the one I wanted
to...oh well....I don't know if it is color true or not in the pictures
so in the outfit one -- waist down is all navy not black.

Tricia

http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/chirparrooo/my_photos


I think you look great. Your hands & nails are gorgeous (but you should
cut
them all the same lenght) & I'm sure you were just feeling yuky when you
wrote your first message.

As for damp hair at the interview: I'm convinced you look perfectly fine &
that is not the problem the getting the job. But if you blow dry your
hair it will look much neater & less fly away.

volunteering: I see you said you do volunteer work but it sounds like
the work you are doing is all individual work. You need to work on a
team/comittee. If you are doing database & web sites you are working alone
and won't mmet ppl.

As for the guild: I would say try again, but if it's really not what you
want/expect, don't force yourself to go.

(hugs)

Sandy Ellison wrote:
Meeting people: Tricia! Keep trying.
Getting to know folks at church? Join the volunteers!
When there's a meeting (committee, women's group, groundskeepers, etc.)
show up. If you're easy for people to overlook, they will.
You CAN do this. (Believe me, "they" don't fire volunteers. g)
Join a Y or fitness center if one is available. The Y usually has
financial assistance programs if that is a concern. Our Y is a great
place to meet people and it helps keep me in shape.

Julia in MN

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http://webpages.charter.net/jaccola/

This is too late for you, Tricia, but something for you parents of girls
to consider. When my daughter was small, someone told me that she
thought it was good for girls to learn about makeup, etc. young. So I
bought my daughter some cheap makeup and let her and her friends play
with it. She learned how to apply by trial and error. When she was in
junior high or high school, DH commented once that DD didn't wear
makeup. He was wrong -- she had mastered a light touch and it wasn't
really noticeable. She never really went overboard on makeup though she
does admit to putting on blue mascara after she got to school when she
was in junior high.

Julia in MN

Tricia wrote:
No offense to our male readers/quilters, but this topic is weighing on
my mind right now and needs discussing AFAIC....Also, right away, let
me say, I know there is much more to being a woman than make up and
hair styles and such. Those other (and yes, much more important)
things AREN'T the things I want to discuss in this thread. I had
*great* role models for being a strong, self-sufficient (and
self-sacrificing) woman. Please don't flame me for trivalizing what it
means to be a woman. If you find this topic offensive, I'm sorry, I
don't mean to offend anyone or incite a riot.

I think most of us would probably say that the teen years is the WHEN
in regards to learning to be a "woman" rather than a "girl". During my
teen years my life was pretty screwed up (mom and stepass getting
divorced, long lost father back in my life, acquiring a stepmother,
living with an abusive alcoholic, etc. PLUS all the usual teen angst
issues). Somewhat as a result (I think) something "short circuited" in
my development in *how* to be a woman rather than a girl, or rather in
some other regards, being an adult vs a child. I didn't have role
models for what I'm facing now in any regard.

Specific to the Woman v Girl thing, I know virtually nothing about make
up, let alone how to properly apply it so I don't look like clown or
tramp. Forget trying to style my hair (although I have a little more
knowledge on that) in anything other than a basic flyaway ponytail --
it's basically not happening (these days it's more like getting me to
do anything other than use a headband 'cause it only makes a stubby
tail). Occassionally I get a perm. I can't manage to use curlers to
save my soul, not even the nice heated ones DH got me a few years ago
at my request. Basically when it comes to being "pretty", "feminine",
and "done up", I friggin' suck.

Part of it is having been raised with the mantra that God blessed me
and I didn't need make up and stuff to mask it all. For the most part,
I believe the philosophy (in the sense that we are the way we are
supposed to be, etc.) and while I tended to leave God out of it,
frequently shared that philosophy with my students (middle schoolers)
when the question inevitably came up why I was one of maybe two or
three female teachers in our building who didn't wear make-up. That
was fine in that enviroment -- I might have gotten more respect from
some of the adults I dealt with if I had been "done up" but I got
through it okay.

I suspect something that is hindering my ability to get hired lately is
the fact that I don't "do" make up and such -- with my baby face (and
unfortunately being noticably overweight), I tend to look younger than
my age, which at times translates for some (I suspect) as flighty or
incompetent. -- or like I just "don't care" (current hormone issues
resulting in pimples doesn't help dispel that myth either).

Besides the employment issue, I have been pondering trying to find out
how to "do" make up properly for a while now -- simply so I *can* do it
when the mood/situation strikes -- like going out for a nice evening
with my husband or to a wedding, etc.

Hence, realizing I have virtually no knowledge in an area many women
seem to have plenty, I thought I'd ask where that knowledge came
from...where did you learn it?

Pondering,
Tricia



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Thanks Pauline -- I'm assuming the type of salon you call isn't some
place like the place in Wal Mart or a Fantastic Sams....

I really wish I was closer to one of my stepsisters (both physically
and emotionally -- she moved and left no forwarding address/contact
information with me =( ). She's always been good at this stuff (well,
alright, maybe not always...as a teenager she did seem to go a bit
overboard and looked more trampy than accentuated, but I think from
what I have gathered many teen girls go through a stage like that when
learning about make up), went to cosmetology school, etc. While I
initially thought her make up choices for me at my wedding were a bit
dark, she did a beautiful job with me -- make up and hair. (pictures
available on the same site as my interview outfit). She anchored that
veil so well that it took me forever to get it off -- and that was
after dancing, being swung around like a little girl by a friend, and
changing -- both into and out of my dress and alternate outfits. We
weren't close as kids (she's nearly 10 years older and I was the
intruding baby stepsister) and I had hoped around the time of my
wedding that we'd get closer as adults but things happened, she moved,
I moved, etc. and we lost touch again. Someday we'll manage to
reconnect somehow....

Been on meds before for PMDD, trying to avoid it for as long as I can
this time....

Thanks,
Tricia

Pauline wrote:
When I'm in need of changing hair stylists & don't have any current
recommendations, I call a salon & tell the receptionist that I'm looking for
a new hairdresser & I have lots of hair, but no ability to style it. Can I
meet with one of their stylists to discuss my hair & see if we would be a
good fit? It's usually not a problem - just have to schedule a time when
they aren't busy. I've never been charged for it, but I suppose it wouldn't
be out of order to do so. Be sure & tell them you need remedial hair
styling help

Good you're going to the doctor. I didn't think you had a pizza face. I
know what you mean though - I had more break outs when I was in my 30's &
40's than I did as a teenager.

I used to suffer terribly from PMS - my evil twin came out then. That's
something you may want to discuss with your MD as well - there is help out
there for you. Keep your chin up & keep asking for help. You'll start to
make changes & they'll start to be easier & pretty soon, things will fall
into place for you.
--
Pauline
Northern California
"Tricia" wrote in message
ups.com...

Pauline wrote:
And don't feel you have to buy everything or anything
from them. I always tell them I need to wear it for the rest of the day
to
see if my skin reacts to anything - which is true. If the new product

Thank you for bringing that up. It gives me a ready thing in mind when
I go in there to keep from getting pressured into something that I
could very well regret (for any number of reasons) later on.



You can also "interview" potential hairstylists to see if you

*how* do you do that -- interview hairstylists? Maybe it's the places
I go but I've never had someone really work with me, well, not true --
one guy one time took one good look at me and just declared he was
going to make me beautiful and did a wonderful job on my hair, helped
me with some basics in hair styling products (small talk by bed head).
However, by teh time I went back (I use annoyance as the main deciding
factor on when to get my hair cut) he had moved on to a better quality
place (I assume) and I couldn't track him down. I hate when I go in
some place regularly and each person who works with my hair gives me
conflicting recommendations on products, etc.

think you will work well together. See what they suggest & explain how
it's
a weak area for you, so it needs to be doable for YOU. Sometimes it
takes a
few visits for your hairstylist & you to get to a good spot.

I also recommend seeing a dermatologist if your skin is breaking out.
Don't
try to "fix" it yourself. You need to see a professional.

New patient appointment is Oct. 20th. I know I probably made it sound
like I was a "pizza face" but in reality it's just a few (half dozen
maybe) spots -- but very noticable and more than I had as a teenager
and they come with my cycle more often than not.


If you're worried about your weight - try to dress in a way that helps
to
camoflage the areas you're most concerned about. This is another area
where
a good sales person can help you. And remember - you can always return
anything you buy that you have buyers remorse after you get home & try
it on
again. You can also return make-up - even to drug stores. (It looked
different when I got it home - it made me break out - it creased in my
eyelids, etc.)

Good luck - you sound like you need a lift & taking it one step at a
time
will really help you to feel better about your appearance. Keep us
posted!

Pauline

Thanks Pauline, You are right, I do need a lift -- in a big way. I
was in the throes of a really bad bout of PMS this morning when I was
typing (and crying) away, am slightly better now but these are issues
that have been bothering me -- they just don't seem to reach critical
status unless the hormones are wacked.

Tricia