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How was this made?



 
 
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  #11  
Old January 17th 07, 05:47 AM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
Mick
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Posts: 13
Default How was this made?

Mbstevens, Peter, Andy, thank you for your input. I appreciate it very
much.


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  #12  
Old January 17th 07, 05:47 AM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
mbstevens
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Posts: 165
Default How was this made?

On Wed, 17 Jan 2007 02:23:59 +0000, mbstevens wrote:
I suppose the reliefs could
have been pressed into undercut grooves, as the classical ones were, but
then they'd have to recut the top of the reliefs because of the hammering.


They could, actually, press down a slightly domed relief with
something soft to expand it inside an undercut. But I see the fit as a
little too perfect, and the metal around the relief has not even a hint
of being hammered to fit.

I did enlarge the image to 200%, and saw a slight fish pattern. This
argues for your theory, but I still have doubts. Anything can be cast.



  #13  
Old January 17th 07, 09:05 AM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
Abrasha
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Posts: 298
Default How was this made?

mbstevens wrote:


To carve that relief with the perfect background without making a trench
would have required a machine to rout it out.


Obviously you are not familiar with the level craftsmanship of the
Japanese craftsmen of the 12th through 18th centuries.

They did things by hand, that even today machines have not been able to
duplicate.

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Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com

  #14  
Old January 17th 07, 09:05 AM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
Abrasha
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Default How was this made?

mbstevens wrote:

Anything can be cast.

No!

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Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com

  #15  
Old January 17th 07, 03:53 PM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
ted frater
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Posts: 133
Default How was this made?

Mick wrote:
The object in the photo is called a tsuba. It's a handguard for a
Japanese sword. I want to find out how a tsuba like this is made. Was
it cast, carved, or..?

Here's a link to the photo:
http://micknewton.smugmug.com/photos/123184715-O.jpg

It's just a guess, but I think it was cast, and then more detail was
added by hand.

BTW, I don't know anything about the tsuba myself. I don't even
remember where I found the photo. I just like the design and I'm
wondering how it was done. I especially like how they left some of the
bamboo stalks unpainted (unleafed?). It makes the design more three
dimensional.

Does anybody know how it was done, or even have a guess?


Theres another technique that may have been used to inlay the gold onto
the iron. thisis where the iron is etched to create a rough surface into
which the gold is cold pressed with polished steel edged or rounded
burnishing tools. Once done it cant be easilyremoved. Idealfor the very
fine detail as shown, and doesnt need undercutting like damascening
this would need the tsuba maker to have access to acid type liquids .
wether this was possible Im not sure. It might work with sea salt in a
paste form. That was available in the 12cent.
Ive seen this technique being done on spanish small items like
cufflinks etc with differnt colour gold foils. The contrast between the
black of the patinised iron and the gold is allways stunning.. t
Also Ive some samples of this type of japanese work but its on buttons.
As a boy I used to spend many hours wandering around our local museum
looking at the Japanese metalwork and laquerwork. Remember it still.
The iron tsubas would have been forged. If youve ever watched let alone
done any iron forging youll see how quick it can be. My guess is that
the tsuba was made from a strip, coiled then chased with chisels.
holding something like this when chisseling isnt that difficult.if you
know how.
Changing the subject somewhat, ive a pair of cast chased and guilded
early 19th cent french candelabra The chasing and subsequent burnishing
can be clearly seen. Then they would have been fire guilded.

  #16  
Old January 17th 07, 03:53 PM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
Andy Dingley
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Posts: 17
Default How was this made?


Abrasha wrote:

You see, cast iron is very brittle, and during battle a direct blow to
the tsuba would simply break it, and possibly cost the poor fellow his life!


No more than he deserved! The tsuba isn't a quillion, its function (if
anything) is to do with the grip of the hands, not for deflecting blows.


  #17  
Old January 17th 07, 06:06 PM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
mbstevens
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Posts: 165
Default How was this made?

On Wed, 17 Jan 2007 08:05:23 +0000, Abrasha wrote:

mbstevens wrote:

Anything can be cast.

No!


Oh, all right, Mr. "...inlaid over the steel."
If we're going to be pedantic, I will make exceptions for
interstellar dark matter, the Internet, and jello. (Although
I'm not that sure about jello.)

  #18  
Old January 17th 07, 06:11 PM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
Peter W.. Rowe,
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Posts: 355
Default How was this made?

On Wed, 17 Jan 2007 09:06:45 -0800, in rec.crafts.jewelry mbstevens
wrote:

On Wed, 17 Jan 2007 08:05:23 +0000, Abrasha wrote:

mbstevens wrote:

Anything can be cast.

No!


Oh, all right, Mr. "...inlaid over the steel."
If we're going to be pedantic, I will make exceptions for
interstellar dark matter, the Internet, and jello. (Although
I'm not that sure about jello.)


Just within jewelry traditions, a number of obvious examples of things that
cannot be cast occur to me, in terms of not being able to cast an equal quality
duplicate:

Coins (any numismatist can tell even a good cast copy coin without trouble, from
the orignal die struck ones)

Mokume

granulation

Wrought iron (can't cast that fibrous grain structure)

filligree. (yeah, you can cast filligree, sort of, but it's never even close to
the real thing)

Hand engraved finishes or Guilloche/engine turned finishes (you can cast the
shape, but again, it never looks the same.

Need I go on? I'm just getting started...

Peter
  #19  
Old January 17th 07, 06:12 PM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
Peter W.. Rowe,
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Posts: 355
Default How was this made?

On Wed, 17 Jan 2007 09:06:45 -0800, in rec.crafts.jewelry mbstevens
wrote:

On Wed, 17 Jan 2007 08:05:23 +0000, Abrasha wrote:

mbstevens wrote:

Anything can be cast.

No!


Oh, all right, Mr. "...inlaid over the steel."
If we're going to be pedantic, I will make exceptions for
interstellar dark matter, the Internet, and jello. (Although
I'm not that sure about jello.)


jello casts just fine. Pour the still liquid mix into any decent jello mold,
and voila. Desert.

  #20  
Old January 18th 07, 02:41 AM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
Mick
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Posts: 13
Default How was this made?


Mick wrote:
The object in the photo is called a tsuba. It's a handguard for a
Japanese sword. I want to find out how a tsuba like this is made. Was
it cast, carved, or..?

Here's a link to the photo:
http://micknewton.smugmug.com/photos/123184715-O.jpg

It's just a guess, but I think it was cast, and then more detail was
added by hand.

BTW, I don't know anything about the tsuba myself. I don't even
remember where I found the photo. I just like the design and I'm
wondering how it was done. I especially like how they left some of the
bamboo stalks unpainted (unleafed?). It makes the design more three
dimensional.

Does anybody know how it was done, or even have a guess?


Here is a close-up view of the tsuba in my original post:
http://micknewton.smugmug.com/photos/123764979-O.jpg

And, here are a few more that appear to have been made using similar
techniques:

http://micknewton.smugmug.com/photos/123541201-O.jpg

http://micknewton.smugmug.com/photos/123764988-O.jpg

http://micknewton.smugmug.com/photos/123764990-O.jpg

This one is a little different. It's a simpler piece, consisting of a
nanako background with two small mon (family crests) in gold:
http://micknewton.smugmug.com/photos/123541196-O.jpg


 




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