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  #11  
Old January 2nd 04, 12:54 PM
F.James Cripwell
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"Chip Orange" ) writes:
I worry that this is indicative of the decline in the needlework industry.
My husband thought it might mean that with the economy waning from the 90's
fewer people have access to computers.

Jim, when you gave the numbers, you never speculated on the reason for the
decline. Any ideas?

Allie Orange


Maybe I did not speculate, because I have no idea what the cause is.
However, we must remember that Usenet is a very recent phemomenon,and many
newsgroups which started up with high expectations, have simply
disappeared. It may be that RCTN is settling into a more mature routine.
I also like to hope that some of the high volume was caused by the flame
wars we have had over the years. Again, as we mature, we may have learned
how to be more tolerant of each other.
--
Jim Cripwell.
The gods do not subtract from the allotted span of one's life, any
time that is spent in stitching.
Adapted from a sign on The Cobb, Lyme Regis, England.
Ads
  #14  
Old January 2nd 04, 10:08 PM
Ellice
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On 1/1/04 11:15 PM,"Seanette Blaylock"
posted:

"Chip Orange" had some very interesting things
to say about Number of posts on RCTN.:

I worry that this is indicative of the decline in the needlework industry.
My husband thought it might mean that with the economy waning from the 90's
fewer people have access to computers.


Or maybe it's just a lot of enthusiastic posters leaving the group due
to various flamewars. :-(


And as someone else postulated - there are many other virtual stitch groups
now. Chat groups on Yahoo, on About Needlework, the ANG list, groups that
chat from designer web-sites and many other places. Usenet was pretty much
it years ago.

I don't think the Needlework Industry on the whole is declining that much -
it is the LNS that are hurting. The proliferation of web-shopping has done
that. Many shops are surviving by doing e-business, or something else (my
local that has most of the income from the frame shop, followed by the
needlework portion of the shop & antique needlework boutique. Designers who
sell directly to the public, retail - frequently LNS are stopping carrying
them (why pay for the inventory if you're in competition to sell with the
designer).

I thought I saw some figures with more people actually having computer
access. One of our good friends is a VP on the board of the WWW Consortium
(my old grad school officemate) - I'll ask him. He always has all kinds of
factoids on the computer and web subject.

ellice

  #15  
Old January 2nd 04, 11:39 PM
Dianne Lewandowski
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Ellice wrote:
I don't think the Needlework Industry on the whole is declining that much -
it is the LNS that are hurting. The proliferation of web-shopping has done
that. Many shops are surviving by doing e-business, or something else (my
local that has most of the income from the frame shop, followed by the
needlework portion of the shop & antique needlework boutique. Designers who
sell directly to the public, retail - frequently LNS are stopping carrying
them (why pay for the inventory if you're in competition to sell with the
designer).


My dream is for shops to be more like the one in Monica Ferris' Betsy
Devonshire mystery books. All encompassing. The knitters; the lace
makers; the canvas, counted and surface embroiderers all come to Monday
Brunch, oooh and ahh at each other's work, occasionally do something new.

Dianne


  #16  
Old January 3rd 04, 12:43 AM
Karen C - California
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In article , Ellice writes:

it is the LNS that are hurting. The proliferation of web-shopping has done
that.


Not necessarily. I had a fantastic LNS some years ago. Unfortunately, they
were only open one evening per week, and not on Sunday. About a block away was
a chain craft store, open every evening and all day on Sunday. For those of us
who were at work during 90% of the LNS' open hours, the chain store was far
more convenient, and cheaper, too.

I've seen it with other types of stores, too. Grandpa was only open 10-5 M-F,
Dad was only open 10-5 M-F, and therefore, we're going to do it just the way
that's worked for 100 years. Unfortunately, what worked in the 1950s when most
women were home during the day does not work in the 2000s when most women are
at work downtown during the day.

The shop owners complain about WalMart stealing their business, without ever
considering how much additional business they could do if they were open the
same hours as WalMart. I have to go out of my way to get to a WalMart, but I
do *not* have to use precious vacation time to get there. If there were
someplace in my neighborhood that I could buy this stuff after 6 PM, I'd shop
in my neighborhood, but since the shops in my neighborhood are telling me they
only want the business of people who don't work, I'll go to a store that
accommodates my schedule.

I appreciate that the LNS owner has a family and she'd like to be home with
them in the evening, but she needs to realize that businesses operate for the
convenience of the customers, not for the convenience of the owners. If we
can't get there during her open hours, it's easier for us to find someplace
that will serve us when we can shop, than to change our schedules to
accommodate her. I've been mail-ordering for decades because by the time I get
home from work, cook, clean up after dinner, and have time to shop, that's the
only option that's available to me. Pre-dated substantially even the first
beginnings of the internet.


--
Finished 12/14/03 -- Mermaid (Dimensions)
WIP: Angel of Autumn, Calif Sampler, Holiday Snowglobe, Guide the Hands (2d
one)

Paralegal - Writer - Editor - Researcher
http://hometown.aol.com/kmc528/KMC.html
  #17  
Old January 3rd 04, 01:38 AM
Ellice
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On 1/2/04 5:39 PM,"Dianne Lewandowski" posted:

Ellice wrote:
I don't think the Needlework Industry on the whole is declining that much -
it is the LNS that are hurting. The proliferation of web-shopping has done
that. Many shops are surviving by doing e-business, or something else (my
local that has most of the income from the frame shop, followed by the
needlework portion of the shop & antique needlework boutique. Designers who
sell directly to the public, retail - frequently LNS are stopping carrying
them (why pay for the inventory if you're in competition to sell with the
designer).


My dream is for shops to be more like the one in Monica Ferris' Betsy
Devonshire mystery books. All encompassing. The knitters; the lace
makers; the canvas, counted and surface embroiderers all come to Monday
Brunch, oooh and ahh at each other's work, occasionally do something new.

Isn't that just a dream shop. Having the boutique in the store is
interesting - lots of linens, brings in different shoppers. No knitting in
this shop. The framing business takes up a fair amount of space. I used to
like just sitting in there and stitching - when I wasn't working. It's hard
to find shops like that - but so nice when you do. For us, Stitch 'n Bitch
night - well, formally "stitch night" is like that - folks just show up, and
we all oooh and ahh - working on all different kinds of things.
I think for most shop owners it's hard to have the inventory investment to
really cover more than all the embroidery, or all the knitting/crocheting,
and the lace making supplies seem to fall in with both - though IME the
bobbins or shuttles are with the knitting shops most often. It's just a huge
investment. And if you only carry partial bits - that's often not good as
customers can't fully kit up their projects. What a conundrum. But, a good
dream shop.

Ellice

  #18  
Old January 3rd 04, 01:46 AM
Shstringfellow
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Unfortunately, what worked in the 1950s when most
women were home during the day does not work in the 2000s when most women are
at work downtown during the day.


This is what I keep saying, too. The merchants downtown in our small city are
always trying to find things to blame their poor business on, but it basically
comes down to they are not sensitive to the needs of the modern customer- they
are open 10:00-5:00 M,T,Th,F&S-they close at 1:00 on Wed. and are not open any
evening hours, even at the holidays. If I work until 4:30 or 5:00, and need
some little thing, do they think I'm going to wait until Saturday to get it?
No, I'll run out to the nearest big box store and pick it up and more!
SueS
  #19  
Old January 3rd 04, 01:54 AM
Ellice
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On 1/2/04 6:43 PM,"Karen C - California" posted:

In article , Ellice writes:

it is the LNS that are hurting. The proliferation of web-shopping has done
that.


Not necessarily. I had a fantastic LNS some years ago. Unfortunately, they
were only open one evening per week, and not on Sunday. About a block away
was
a chain craft store, open every evening and all day on Sunday. For those of
us
who were at work during 90% of the LNS' open hours, the chain store was far
more convenient, and cheaper, too.


That is a big competition - but not for those buying painted canvas, or many
designer charts. The chains carry lots of kits, but not so much of the
higher end (for lack of a better term) material. Point blank - floss sales
don't profit the LNS - most have to sell it at very close to cost, with a
surprisingly low mark-up. It's there as you must have it for needlework. The
chain stores, OTOH, can sell it at ridiculously low prices without hurting -
they can afford it as a loss leader - it gets you in the store. And their
quantity price is likely lower than the individual LNS prices.

that's worked for 100 years. Unfortunately, what worked in the 1950s when
most
women were home during the day does not work in the 2000s when most women are
at work downtown during the day.


Sure, and smart shop owners find a way to accommodate with hours that work
for working clients.

The shop owners complain about WalMart stealing their business, without ever
considering how much additional business they could do if they were open the
same hours as WalMart. I have to go out of my way to get to a WalMart, but I
do *not* have to use precious vacation time to get there. If there were
someplace in my neighborhood that I could buy this stuff after 6 PM, I'd shop
in my neighborhood, but since the shops in my neighborhood are telling me they
only want the business of people who don't work, I'll go to a store that
accommodates my schedule.


That's sad, that you feel your local shops only want business of non-working
folks. But, it pays for WalMart to be open, as they're not selling a
specialty item only. Few folks just go to Wal Mart at 8:30 to buy some floss
alone. When the LNS is open really late - we've found few folks really want
to come shop then. They're tired - we might get browsers, but...In my
friend's shop, we're open til 6 W and Fri, til 7 Tues & Thur, til 5 Sat &
Sun. In this case, closing on Mondays let's the owner have some time off,
and also do commercial work (framing) that may take her out of the shop. We
do get a lot of people in the shop between 4:30 and 6:00 - and people know
what days we're open til 7. But, point blank - it's not worth staying open
later to just sell some floss. It seems that being open past most office
closing times works pretty well. And having the weekend hours. The LNS
nearer my house - she's open 7 days a week - and opens at 9:30, closing at
5:30, except the 2 nights she's open til 7:30. The monthly stitch night,
the shop is essentially open - so people do come in and shop occasionally.
Mostly - either we're in there - or it's browsers - there's a Safeway a few
storefronts down.

I appreciate that the LNS owner has a family and she'd like to be home with
them in the evening, but she needs to realize that businesses operate for the
convenience of the customers, not for the convenience of the owners. If we
can't get there during her open hours, it's easier for us to find someplace
that will serve us when we can shop, than to change our schedules to
accommodate her. I've been mail-ordering for decades because by the time I
get
home from work, cook, clean up after dinner, and have time to shop, that's the
only option that's available to me. Pre-dated substantially even the first
beginnings of the internet.


Essentially you prove part of my point. Mail order, web-order - serious dent
in the LNS. For many working people - me when I was working - I did shopping
on the way home from work - to make the 6 or 7 pm closing time. I might be
stopping for a coffee to take with me - but that was the option. I don't
know how a shop owner can stay in business and be successful if they're
doing it for their own convenience. But, you also have to really figure out
what the cost-benefit of staying open late, or later is. Some shops open
late on a particular day to have a late shopping night. Heck, the skate
place we use does that - they open at 12 2 days a week to stay open til 9,
and are closed on Mon, Tues - because they're a zoo on the weekends -open
from 8-8.

I umderstand people using alternatives to LNS. Just pointing out some of
what has contributed to their business difficulties, as opposed to assuming
Needlework in general is declining.

ellice

  #20  
Old January 3rd 04, 04:58 AM
Brenda Lewis
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Very few old-fashioned downtown merchants can afford to run businesses
in the way modern shoppers desire. Mind you, I'm basing this on my old
hometown which has a population of about 2500.

Small specialty stores were operated by the owner and maybe one or two
assistants. The assistants were often family members. Most buildings
were built from 1890-1925 and the majority have housed several types of
shops over the years. The family lived in an apartment over the shop
and crammed their car (if they had one) in the alley behind the shop.
The grocery store and bank had parking lots in addition to what was
available along the street. Otherwise there were only two or three
parking spots available per store on average. The parking issue limited
how many customers a shop could have and how many unrelated employees it
could have unless the owner played chauffeur or made deliveries or
encouraged alternate transportation such as bicycles (no taxis or public
transit in towns this size). While my hometown did not have parking
meters, many surrounding communities did. Friendly neighbors would pick
up a few things for the ill or elderly if the store didn't offer deliveries.

Shoppers walked to the post office and grocery store daily (except
Sundays and holidays). No one had a 26 cu. ft. refrigerator in the
kitchen, a mammoth deep freeze in the basement, and a "snack"
refrigerator in the garage. People actually cooked meals and ate
together as a family instead of individually popping things in a
microwave at each person's convenience. Several generations of a family
lived in the same town and they knew the store owners (and vice versa).
While strolling to get the mail and the day's food shoppers would pick
up anything else needed at the other stores. No one would think of
buying fresh milk at a variety store or a pair of shoes or a hammer at
the grocery store although such things might happen in much smaller or
very remote communities that had only one or two stores.

Along come the big chain stores. They buy vast tracts of property along
major roads between "work" towns and "bedroom" towns but are close
enough to both to be convenient to all who can drive or find
transportation. They have 300+ parking spots. The buildings are new
and built to their specifications with tons of storage space--assuming
you don't mind shopping in a place that looks like a warehouse. They
are open (in some regions anyway) 24/7 except for maybe a few hours off
on certain holidays. They own their own distribution facilities, truck
lines, and even some production facilities. When they do buy products
from other companies, they order massive quantities at deep discounts to
supply an entire region of the state or country. They have tons of
employees who are often treated as faceless slaves and they have little
pride in the job they perform. It is the customer's job to walk around
and find whatever item they want. After all, the night stockers put the
items on the labeled shelves. It isn't any employee's fault that other
shoppers pick up items from one place and discard them in another. Some
took the miserable job just for the employee discount.

Downtown merchants are not making up excuses. Owners have tried to hang
on as long as possible to serve loyal customers. A one- or two-person
shop cannot be open 24/7. You also cannot afford to keep the shop open
three or four extra hours per day on the off chance someone might come
in and buy one skein of floss (or birthday card, a couple of nails...).
Chances are that person will complain about paying 60 cents for it
when they could get it for 25 cents five miles down the road at the
chain store. Having a planned stitch night or such can pay off, but a
general expansion of hours often does not. Some old downtowns have one
night a week that all stores are open and parking is free to encourage
business. Downtown associations often sponsor holiday walks and design
gift certificates that can be used at any downtown store. In some
places these gimmicks do work. That is, if anyone sees the ads. More
people get news on tv or online or read only large-city or national
newspapers instead of reading the local weekly newspaper. While the
stores might benefit from advertising in a county-wide paper, they
certainly can't justify ads in the Wall Street Journal or USA Today even
if that is what the locals read.

Buildings were not required to meet ADA standards a century ago and
there simply isn't enough floor or sidewalk space available to install a
properly-graded entry ramp. No matter how much you care for those who
are not blessed with full mobility, if you have only two parking spots
on the curb in front of your building, you weep when the government
requires one to be reserved for the handicapped or the city takes one
away to make a wide curb cut. As the stores around you close, vandalism
goes up which means your insurance goes up. Or the other stores close
and are turned into bars which drives away many customers and makes your
location very undesirable in the evening. If you have employees who are
not a member of your family, you would rather let them get a job
somewhere else if you can no longer pay them a wage they can live on
because you care about them and their families.

But how can these stores compete with vertical integration? A jeweler
with all the equipment can design and cast original pieces or do repairs
that chain stores can't, a grocer might buy produce from local farms so
it is literally just-picked fresh, and anyone can sell trinkets with the
town name or school mascot. The owner can be on a first-name basis with
all the old regulars (and friendly to new people) and know where
everything is, how much it costs, and go above and beyond to serve the
customers. Do any of those mean enough to a frazzled mother of four who
has just put in a nine hour day plus an hour commute each way when she
has exactly 28 minutes to feed her crowd before shuttling them off to
evening activities? There is probably nothing those store owners can do
which will attract this person on a regular basis. Unfortunately,
occasional customers don't generate enough business to get the bills
paid. How about the loyal customer of ten years ago who is now retired
only to have lost their retirement money to the poor economy and the
$3,000/month for health insurance/treatment/medicine? No matter how
much this customer cares for you as a person and wants your business to
succeed, pennies must be pinched.

My old downtown was a busy place. Now the jeweler, the pharmacist, and
the owner of the variety store are dead with no one to carry on those
businesses. The florist, hardware store, and several others didn't make
it through the farm crisis of the 80's. Owners of the lumber yard and
appliance store retired. The old grocer died and, after running the
business for several years, his son sold the store to the grocer from
the next town over. A doctor's office came and went. There have also
been legal, insurance and tax businesses over the years. Some buildings
have decayed beyond use. The old soda fountain is still there but is
only open semi-occasionally since the owner's children are scattered
across the country and they like to go visiting. The post office, city
hall, and bank are still there. A couple of hair salons are still there
but the owners are nearing retirement; I think they keep working because
they like the gossip. There are the ubiquitous bars, eateries (always
changing ownership) and a laundromat to serve the people who now rent
the apartments above all the storefronts. Skateboarders and loiterers
hang out at night and destroy the curbs, benches, and greenspace. All
in all, it has become a dismal place. I don't see much hope for it.
The remaining buildings need major renovations to come up to code. I
wish those who are holding on all the best.

Shstringfellow wrote:
This is what I keep saying, too. The merchants downtown in our small city are
always trying to find things to blame their poor business on, but it basically
comes down to they are not sensitive to the needs of the modern customer- they
are open 10:00-5:00 M,T,Th,F&S-they close at 1:00 on Wed. and are not open any
evening hours, even at the holidays. If I work until 4:30 or 5:00, and need
some little thing, do they think I'm going to wait until Saturday to get it?
No, I'll run out to the nearest big box store and pick it up and more!


--
Brenda Lewis
WIP: "Pink Baby" photo frame, Candamar

 




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