gold

"Peter W.. Rowe," wrote in message
. ..
On Tue, 19 Oct 2004 08:15:47 -0700, in õ "Lawrence" wrote:

hi

let me make sure i understand this correctly.

suppose today spot price of gold is $420/ounce

so if i have an ounce of 18k gold it's worth $420
.....if i have an ounce of 24k gold it's also worth $420

correct?


No, of course not. The gold content, of course, is worth 420 an ounce no matter what
the carat. And 18K is 75 percent gold, so it's gold cost is also 75 percent of the
price of an ounce of gold, to which you then have to also add back whatever cost is
involved for the alloying metals, as well as the refiners various fees for alloying
and marketing, etc.

The problem Abrasha and others had with your original description is that you said
14K was 50 percent gold, so you could get two ounces of it from an ounce of pure.
That's a bit too loose mathematically for some of us. It would be true for 12 K
gold, which is indeed 50 percent gold.

OK, here is where I am truly confused. How can you get two ounces of
anything from one ounce? Isn't this like the "Which is heavier, a
pound of feathers or a pound of lead?," joke? A pound is a pound, an
ounce is an ounce, no? Is there some other form of measurement when
one is talking gold, or some alchemy involved?



But 14K is 58.3 % gold, and that 8.3 percent
difference amounts to a substantial difference in cost. Enough so, that if you or
anyone can produce 14K gold for the price of 12K, you'll make a lot of money, fast.
Remember that in the U.S. back before stamping laws were change, one could mark metal
that assayed at 13.5K as 14K. that half karat allowance was originally in the law to
allow for solder and the like, but with casting, wasn't needed for that, so casters
used actual 13.5K gold instead of 14K. The difference in cost for just that half
karat difference was quite substantial over time. Enough so that when the law
changed, it was important that the new, plumb castings needed to be marked 14KP, the
P indicating the full karat, in order to help justify the slightly higher prices, in
addition to identifying new and fully legal items.

Peter









"Abrasha" wrote in message
. ..
KG wrote:
"Lawrence" wrote in message
news
hi

is 10k, 14k, 18k, 24k gold all worth the same in regards to an ounce of

spot

price?




Lawrence,

An ounce of gold at spot assumes an ounce of 24K (pure) gold. As you no
doubt realize, the lesser karatages have less gold in them. So for the
price of an ounce of pure (24K) gold, you would get about two ounces of
14K,
given that it only contains 1/2 ounce of pure gold for each ounce of
weight.

Time to go back to school!

All of this assumes that the form of the 24K and the 14K are identical
(both
casting grain, for example) which would negate any differences in
fabrication/refining costs.

Does that clarify it for you?

Your figures are completely wrong.

Please show me how to get 2 ounces of 14K gold out of one ounce of 24K
gold.
Now that would be interesting and a sure way to riches, without ever
having to
make a piece of jewelry again.

Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com

PS - It would make sense to me to get less of something from more of
something - like a peck of applesauce from a bushel of apples, but how
can you get two ounces of something from one? Am I missing something?

On Tue, 19 Oct 2004 21:16:40 -0700, in ¸õ (Raane) wrote:

OK, here is where I am truly confused. How can you get two ounces of
anything from one ounce? Isn't this like the "Which is heavier, a
pound of feathers or a pound of lead?," joke? A pound is a pound, an
ounce is an ounce, no? Is there some other form of measurement when
one is talking gold, or some alchemy involved?

What you're missing is that the thread concerned the concept of alloying, and the
gold content of gold alloys other than pure gold. The question involved whether one
could get two ounces of 14K gold from once ounce of pure gold. The answer is no, you
cannot. But the reason is that 14K gold contains 58% gold. If the question was for
12K gold, which is only 50 percent gold, then the answer is yes. You get two ounces
of 12K gold from one ounce of 24K gold, by mixing the ounce of gold with an ounce of
some other metal or mixture of metals, so that you've then got a total of two ounces
of the combined alloy. There is still only one ounce of pure gold contained in the
two ounces of the lower karat of gold. And that same one ounce of pure gold, if
mixed with .714 ounces of alloy, will yield 1.714 ounces of 14K gold. What we're
talking here is more akin to wondering how many pounds of bread you can make if
you've got a cup of milk and three eggs. It all depends on how much flour and water
and whatever else you add in addition to the milk and egg. Lots of different types
of bread, so multiple answers depending on the type of bread.

On Tue, 19 Oct 2004 21:16:48 -0700, in @õ (Raane) wrote:

PS - It would make sense to me to get less of something from more of
something - like a peck of applesauce from a bushel of apples, but how
can you get two ounces of something from one? Am I missing something?

Nothing here is gained or lost in any mysterious fashion. We start with an ounce of
pure gold, and add various amounts of allying metals, to get varying weights of
different karat golds, depending on how much alloy was added to the gold.

Likewise, an ounce of each resulting alloy, since it's mixed with the gold in
different proportions, will still weigh a total of one ounce, but have different
amounts of gold in it.

And as such, an ounce of different karats of gold will each have a different value
per ounce for that ounce of karat gold, since for each different karat of gold, a
different percentage of that ounce will be pure gold.

he pure gold has the same value per ounce, but there will be different amounts of it
in different karats of gold. The karat of a gold alloy specifies how many parts
per 24 parts, are gold, and how many are other, usually baser, metals. Typically,
yellow gold alloys are mixtures of gold, silver, and copper, in varying proportions.
14K gold is 14/24ths (about 58.3%) gold, and 10/24ths (about 41.6%) alloy. 18K gold
is 18/24ths gold (75%), and 6/24ths (25%) alloy (other metals.)

So, for example, 18K gold is 75% gold. an ounce of 18K gold thus contains .75 ounces
of pure gold. If pure gold is priced at $420 an ounce, then the gold in an ounce of
18K gold is valued at $315. Meanwhile, an ounce of 14K gold contains .583 ounces of
pure gold, with a value of about $245.

Make sense now?

:-)

Peter

Yes....
I was actually just being a persnick about verbiage...

" The problem Abrasha and others had with your original description is
that you said
14K was 50 percent gold, so you could - *get two ounces of it from an
ounce of pure*..................................•It would be true for
12 K gold• ............."

Reading a little to literally - but that's English for you!

Christine



"Peter W.. Rowe," wrote in message
. ..
On Tue, 19 Oct 2004 21:16:48 -0700, in @ õ (Raane) wrote:

PS - It would make sense to me to get less of something from more of
something - like a peck of applesauce from a bushel of apples, but how
can you get two ounces of something from one? Am I missing something?

Nothing here is gained or lost in any mysterious fashion. We start with an ounce of
pure gold, and add various amounts of allying metals, to get varying weights of
different karat golds, depending on how much alloy was added to the gold.

Likewise, an ounce of each resulting alloy, since it's mixed with the gold in
different proportions, will still weigh a total of one ounce, but have different
amounts of gold in it.

And as such, an ounce of different karats of gold will each have a different value
per ounce for that ounce of karat gold, since for each different karat of gold, a
different percentage of that ounce will be pure gold.

he pure gold has the same value per ounce, but there will be different amounts of it
in different karats of gold. The karat of a gold alloy specifies how many parts
per 24 parts, are gold, and how many are other, usually baser, metals. Typically,
yellow gold alloys are mixtures of gold, silver, and copper, in varying proportions.
14K gold is 14/24ths (about 58.3%) gold, and 10/24ths (about 41.6%) alloy. 18K gold
is 18/24ths gold (75%), and 6/24ths (25%) alloy (other metals.)

So, for example, 18K gold is 75% gold. an ounce of 18K gold thus contains .75 ounces
of pure gold. If pure gold is priced at $420 an ounce, then the gold in an ounce of
18K gold is valued at $315. Meanwhile, an ounce of 14K gold contains .583 ounces of
pure gold, with a value of about $245.

Make sense now?

:-)

Peter

PS again,

Peter,

I loved the bread example - perfect analogy!

C.

On Wed, 20 Oct 2004 04:17:32 GMT, (Raane) wrote:

OK, here is where I am truly confused. How can you get two ounces of
anything from one ounce? Isn't this like the "Which is heavier, a
pound of feathers or a pound of lead?," joke? A pound is a pound, an
ounce is an ounce, no? Is there some other form of measurement when
one is talking gold, or some alchemy involved?

But a pound of lead or a pound of feathers weighs more than a
pound of gold or silver. (My favorite beer bet.)

Cheers!
Neil

On Wed, 20 Oct 2004 18:21:29 -0700, in õ Neil Marsh wrote:

On Wed, 20 Oct 2004 04:17:32 GMT, (Raane) wrote:

OK, here is where I am truly confused. How can you get two ounces of
anything from one ounce? Isn't this like the "Which is heavier, a
pound of feathers or a pound of lead?," joke? A pound is a pound, an
ounce is an ounce, no? Is there some other form of measurement when
one is talking gold, or some alchemy involved?

But a pound of lead or a pound of feathers weighs more than a
pound of gold or silver. (My favorite beer bet.)

Cheers!
Neil



Well, the pound of lead will hurt the most when it falls and hits your toe. The
pound of feathers won't hurt at all, and the pounds of gold or silver likely won't
have been carelessly allowed to fall in the first place.

But, for those of you going to take Neil up on his bet, he's quite right. An pound
of gold or silver does indeed weigh less than a pound of lead or feathers. The
reason does not lie in physics. It lies in the fact that gold and silver are weighed
in Troy weight, not avourdupois weights. An avoir. pound is, of course, 16 ounces,
each of which is about 28.8 grams, so the avoir pound is about 461 grams. Meanwhile,
a troy pound is only 12 ounces, but troy ounces weigh slightly more, at 31.1 grams
each. So the troy pound comes to about 373 grams. However, let it be noted that
I'm a generous fellow in trades. So I'll gladly trade anyone who wishes, a full
avoir pound of lead for a troy pound of gold or silver, and you're welcome to the
extra grams with my best wishes. And I'll bet, from the sound of it, that Neil would
be happy to take in trade a pound of any of those metals, for suitable quantities of
beer. You will have to discuss directly with him, however, what unit of measurement
you wish to have your beer measured with. Pounds avoir and pounds troy are not
customary for beer. Pounds Sterling, however, might well be... (grin)

Peter
Peter

Neil Marsh wrote:

But a pound of lead or a pound of feathers weighs more than a
pound of gold or silver. (My favorite beer bet.)

Cheers!
Neil

First you do:
pound of lead, pound of feathers (neither)
then:
pound of gold, pound of lead (lead)
then:
ounce of gold, ounce of lead (gold)
then for a topper:
pint of skim milk and a pint of heavy cream


--


If you try to 'reply' to me without fixing the dot, your reply
will go into a 'special' mailbox reserved for spam. See below.


--
Carl West http://carl.west.home.comcast.net

change the 'DOT' to '.' to email me

"Clutter"? This is an object-rich environment.

On Wed, 20 Oct 2004 21:49:19 -0700, in õ Carl West wrote:

then for a topper:
pint of skim milk and a pint of heavy cream

Now THAT one is fun. But to mix it up a tad more, and really make it a topper (for
your deserts, or your latte, perhaps), the skim milk should be steamed to a good rich
froth, and the cream whipped properly. Now try to predict which is heavier... Or
maybe, who cares. Just consume, knowing only that one will make YOU heavier than the
other...

Peter