Who has the right to know?

Nicely put Ted...I have been lurking on this group for some time, and
i've been mightily impressed by the combined experience of its
'leading lights', and also by their extreme generosity in being
willing to share their expertise with us newbies.
I've also been intrigued by the group's reaction to our Jack's
approach to gaining wisdom in this field, and can understand why some
would first try to help, and then decide 'never again!'.
I have only been doing this stuff as a hobby for a few years, but that
helps me to understand the more experenced craftsmen here, who may
have been metalsmiths for ten, twenty or thirty years, and why they
are so incredulous by our Jack's approach.

My situation must be similar to many on this group. I started out with
the minimum equipment I could afford, making pieces out of silver
since it was affordable, and only in my spare time because I have to
work on other stuff to pay my bills. I have a deep affinity and love
for the precious metals, like many here, and yet this does not in
itself teach me how to work with them. I have found that messing up
your first solder joint, and producing a new shape in silver that you
hadn't exactly planned, is a great leveller for all of us. it doesn't
matter what your wealth, age, situation, we're all equal when faced
with this hurdle for the first time.

And then your plans get a bit more ambitious, and you probably screw
it up again, and this time it's a bit more expensive. And now you have
to save up to buy some more precious metal, so you can screw up again
and learn some more. I would love to have a better torch, a new spin
caster or rolling mill, but I would have to be able to justify the
expense first, cost it out, and then save up for it. I can't afford to
make much out of gold, although I would love to, because the risk is
too great, and I would have to save up to do it.
This craft is not a conspiracy, it's an exact, unforgiving science,
and it takes a while to realise that we (even you) have to follow the
same scientific method as everybody else, every time we try to make
something, or we will fail. It's not the fault of the metal, or
because the people on this group don't appear to want to help, it's
because each one of us can only learn by actually doing it ourselves.

I find it incredulous, like many on this group, that a self-professed
multi-millionaire, with all the time in the world, able to buy a
complete jewellers supply house with all the wonderful equipment in
it, able to buy gold and platinum by the pound, hire the best teachers
available, is busy nickel and diming his way through the very basics,
with worse equipment than I have, and blaming the elders on this group
because it's difficult!

I remember a vitriolic exchange on a new casting group, where the
moderator, an elderly man with much (probably too much)experience,
suggested that the group put together a brief list of does and don'ts
for newbies. From his experience, some of it painful, he warned
against contaminating casting aluminum with traces of steel, because
it greatly weakened the aluminum when cast. He wanted to make sure
that nobody made this mistake, and then made a pressure vessel out of
this aluminum, which then burst apart like a hand grenade because the
aluminum wasn't as strong as expected. There was one newbie who took
violent exception to his statements, accusing him of ruining all their
fun, creating a clique, and all sorts of terrible things, all because
he wanted to make sure that nobody got hurt.Everybody else on the
group thanked him for his shared knowledge!

I agree with Ted that this knowledge is priceless, and can only be
shared with fellow craftsmen/women who are making a real effort,
otherwise you might just be talking in another language. There is a
brotherhood of metalsmiths, that goes back thousands of years, and we
are only the recent part of it, and how much of our own
knowledge/experience have we obtained from somebody a thousanfd years
ago? There are examples of filigree work in museums from a thousand
years ago which nobody can make today, even with all our fancy
equipment. There's a different kinfd of lesson...
If our Jack tires to put himself in others shoes, instead of accusing
the members, with the experience he needs, of being trolls, perhaps a
little more respect/humility might be forthcoming, and people
mightactually want to help the poor lad with his troubles?
Nah!
Richard Medway in Los Angeles.(An expat Brit)

Ted Frater wrote:

A fine recepe for creating cliches and jewelers who only make
cliches.

That's not the way knowledge progresses -- it's the way in-groups
protect their power and sense of importance.

Its an interesting view you state in your last sentence, but with
every view point like every coin there two sides.
.......however its a good thing for the goldsmiths co to be
there as a watchdog over this trade and its dealings with the public
at large.

What could this "watchdog" function have to do with hiding or witholding
information about jewelry making from anyone?

How is the public better protected if only members of some organization
or guild know the specifics of a jewelry technology?

I'll answer these myself.
A well informed public is a very, very good thing. They _need_
fewer watchdogs. Organizations of all kinds know about this, and some
of them decide to abuse it. Hiding information is not a prerequisite
for the success of organizations.

When I hear "mysteries'' and "midieval" the first thing that comes to
mind is the incredibly stultifying state of affairs in which innovation
and the growth of technical knowledge is largely crushed by religious
inflexibility. (Yes, I know there are exceptions, like Church
architecture.) I find midieval jewelry to be unpleasantly blocky and
overly literal in representation, and technically inferior to jewelry
made in Greek democracies a thousand years (or so) earlier.
--
Cheers, m http://www.mbstevens.com/

"Richard Medway"

I have only been doing this stuff as a hobby for a few years, but that
helps me to understand the more experenced craftsmen here, who may
have been metalsmiths for ten, twenty or thirty years, and why they
are so incredulous by our Jack's approach....

Isn't that commonly known as "hidebound"? There really is more than one way
to approach most any craft.

I find it incredulous, like many on this group, that a self-professed
multi-millionaire, with all the time in the world, able to buy a
complete jewellers supply house with all the wonderful equipment in
it, able to buy gold and platinum by the pound, hire the best teachers
available, is busy nickel and diming his way through the very basics,
with worse equipment than I have....

Again... a different approach. I built a faceting machine to learn how to
facet. I am building a roller mill to learn how to make wire. I don't want
a shop full of your idea of wonderful equipment. I want to understand the
process, make what I can and buy what I must... in that order. It has
nothing to do with money.... it's just my way.

" and blaming the elders on this group because it's difficult!

You can't be serious. I have only complained that instead of answering
simple questions, they prefer to brag about what great masters they are and
how stupid I am.

and people mightactually want to help the poor lad with his troubles?

Sorry to disappoint you but I have received a great deal of help from many
folks in this forum and isn't it strange that there is no such conflict on
the Orchid forum? I post a question there, get an answer, maybe not but I
never got a bunch of egomaniacs telling me that they have been doing this
since the stone age and it's just beneath their dignity to answer a simple
question. And not just once but over and over again. It's kind of sick if
you ask me.

But you didn't and I hope someone is keeping score here. I think the trolls
are losing by a small margin.

js

--
PHOTO OF THE WEEK: http://schmidling.netfirms.com/pow.htm
Astronomy, Beer, Cheese, Gems, Sausage, http://schmidling.netfirms.com

"Ted Frater" wrote in message
...

Here in the UK we have the Goldsmiths co. One of the oldest guilds in
the City of london, founded over 700 years ago to protect the interests
of working gold and silversmiths. However to become a member one had to
operate in an etical way towards ones customers. so this in-group
had a very steadying influence on this trade being coupled with the hall
marking laws introdurced at the same time.

Compulsary hallmarking is actually only about 400 years old, it is, like
so many of our institutions, Elizebethan.

Even in late medieval times the only mark will be a makers mark, for
example the silver gilt items made by Snawsel and are still in York Minister
(made about 1450) have the Snawsel (William Snawsel was alderman of the
goldsmith's guild in York and master of the York mint at that time) makers
mark on them, but they thought they were gold up to a few years ago, there
is no quality mark.

Im not well enough informed to comment if this is a good or bad thing
for you US citzens, however its a good thing for the goldsmiths co to be
there as a watchdog over this trade and its dealings with the public at
large. I suppose it can be called a trade union for the want of a
better definition.

City of London livery companies are many things, and what they do has
changed over the years, but one thing they are not, and have never been, is
trade unions...

--
William Black
------------------
Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords
is no basis for a system of government

Jack Schmidling wrote:
"Richard Medway"


I have only been doing this stuff as a hobby for a few years, but that
helps me to understand the more experenced craftsmen here, who may
have been metalsmiths for ten, twenty or thirty years, and why they
are so incredulous by our Jack's approach....


Isn't that commonly known as "hidebound"? There really is more than one way
to approach most any craft.


I find it incredulous, like many on this group, that a self-professed
multi-millionaire, with all the time in the world, able to buy a
complete jewellers supply house with all the wonderful equipment in
it, able to buy gold and platinum by the pound, hire the best teachers
available, is busy nickel and diming his way through the very basics,
with worse equipment than I have....


Again... a different approach. I built a faceting machine to learn how to
facet. I am building a roller mill to learn how to make wire. I don't want
a shop full of your idea of wonderful equipment. I want to understand the
process, make what I can and buy what I must... in that order. It has
nothing to do with money.... it's just my way.

I think the above is great -admirable even. Certainly, instead of buying
the equipment, he could just hire someone to custom make the jewelry he
desires. But he wants to produce it with his own hands.



" and blaming the elders on this group because it's difficult!

You can't be serious. I have only complained that instead of answering
simple questions, they prefer to brag about what great masters they are and
how stupid I am.

There may have been a few who took the 'snobbish' approach, but really,
you left yourself open for a lot of criticism by your seemingly stubborn
opposition to doing a little reading. Either on-line or getting some
books. The only 'secrets' or 'cult-like' knowledge the craft has
would've had to been discovered in the last week. Everything else
,including how to build your own shop equipment, can be found in 3-4
books. You will spend hours and hours, modifying equipment designed for
other purposes but can't buy and flip through a couple of books? Your
decision to live 3 hours away from a library does not create an
obigation on the part of this newsgroups' participants to re-write
Bovin, McCreight or Untracht over and over again. If someone asks you
how to make beer, are willing to handhold them through the entire
process if they show no inclination to pick up a book or 2 or read about
the process on-line? Even if you honestly think you would (I'm sure
COULD) can you not imagine some people would find it frustrating?




and people mightactually want to help the poor lad with his troubles?


Sorry to disappoint you but I have received a great deal of help from many
folks in this forum and isn't it strange that there is no such conflict on
the Orchid forum? I post a question there, get an answer, maybe not but I
never got a bunch of egomaniacs telling me that they have been doing this
since the stone age and it's just beneath their dignity to answer a simple
question. And not just once but over and over again. It's kind of sick if
you ask me.

I don't think there are a 'bunch' of egomaniacs here. Just 2-3 folks
kinda' curmudgeonly. Probably no more than most newsgroups.

Frankly, I admire your tenacity but please, buy a couple of books!


Carl
1 Lucky Texan


--
to reply, change ( .not) to ( .net)

I woke this morning with the above title in my head.
So I asked myself the question?
why is it that this trade is accused of being reluctant to divulge its
knowhow? particularly on this newsgroup

I have never asked the question "who has the right to know." From my
standpoint everybody has the "right" to know. Nor have I ever seen (with the
exception of pricing) a question asked, that was not answered because of a
"right to know."
There are certainly many different personalities on here, just as there are
in the real world. There might even be a few who think that way, but I have yet
to see any evidence of that. On the other hand, there are many of us who have
worked hard for the knowledge that we have, and do desire/require a certain
level of respect from a questioner if they want the benefit of what we know. We
all have different ideas about what form that respect should take.
A real world example would be someone walking up to me on the street and
saying "Hey asshole, where's 54th avenue?" They would get no answer from me (or
I suspect most people) and would get a rather large piece of my mind. I would
have a similar response for someone that TOLD me I was going to give them
directions. I have the answer, they don't, I expect some common courtesy. I
also have little patience for those that get my directions and then say "no,
that's not where it is." If they knew so much, why did they need to ask.
When it comes to jewelry questions, I have some things that I would like
from a questioner, and some things that I require. Just like in the real world.
I would like someone asking a question to do some research up front. I don't
require it, but it's nice to know that they are serious enough to have looked
into it first. It tells me that they are serious and I'm not wasting my time.
What I REQUIRE from a questioner, is some common curtesy. Ask, don't tell.
Listen don't talk. A bad attitude gets a response in kind.
Pricing is the one subject on here where questions generally are not
answered due to "need to know." As in every other business, my costs are not
the business of those outside of the jewelry business. I choose not to cut my
own throat by telling consumers what my markup/costs are.

and I include myself in this when other skills like those recently
mentioned here, for example beer, bread, sausage making etc, the
knowhow is freely available everywhere? for the asking.

What particular knowledge of the jewelry business is not out there, easily
accessible, to the general public? With the exception of pricing, I can think
of no deep dark knowledge, hidden from the public.

Herin lies I think , the answer.
Any hard won knowhow isnt for free, and I dont think ever will be.
The enquirer has to be seen to be making a real effort first before
being admitted to the mysteries of the craft. ( As described in medieval
apprenticship indentures)
I am bound by this tradition out of respect for all the smiths that have
gone before me, and whose knowhow Ive learned in the same way as they did.
What do you all think?

I know of no "mysteries of the craft," and don't feel bound by any
tradition. I do, however, expect a certain amount of curtesy from somebody that
want's to benefit from a pool of experience that I have worked long and hard to
obtain. Seems like a cheap price to me.

"Carl 1 Lucky Texan"

I think the above is great -admirable even. Certainly, instead of buying
the equipment, he could just hire someone to custom make the jewelry he
desires. But he wants to produce it with his own hands.

Thank you.

There may have been a few who took the 'snobbish' approach, but really,
you left yourself open for a lot of criticism by your seemingly stubborn
opposition to doing a little reading.....

You are right on the number (few) and I have purchased and read several
recommended books since that discussion took place. I have done a great
deal of reading on the internet which is my library but asking a group for
more links or answers to specific questions need not be construed as lazy or
wierd.

If someone asks you
how to make beer, are willing to handhold them through the entire
process....

I covered that last posting with the violin anology. I never asked anyone
how to make jewelry or a silver chalice. I believe I asked questions about
specific aspects of this craft that had not been clear or were new to me.

if they show no inclination to pick up a book or 2 or read about
the process on-line? Even if you honestly think you would (I'm sure
COULD) can you not imagine some people would find it frustrating?

Obviously a misunderstanding of my position.

I don't think there are a 'bunch' of egomaniacs here. Just 2-3 folks
kinda' curmudgeonly. Probably no more than most newsgroups.

Again, you are right on the number but it really is a new experience for me
and I have been on the internet since long before Al Gore invented it. In
fact, as I recall, there were about 300 newsgroups then and a web was were
spiders lived.

js

--
PHOTO OF THE WEEK: http://schmidling.netfirms.com/pow.htm
Astronomy, Beer, Cheese, Gems, Sausage, http://schmidling.netfirms.com

Yes, I remember BBSes and Prodigy filling 1/3 of the screen with ads.
Although I never used the gov or univ. systems.

How about a quick review of the books you have?

Carl
1 Lucky Texan

Jack Schmidling wrote:
"Carl 1 Lucky Texan"


I think the above is great -admirable even. Certainly, instead of buying
the equipment, he could just hire someone to custom make the jewelry he
desires. But he wants to produce it with his own hands.


Thank you.


There may have been a few who took the 'snobbish' approach, but really,
you left yourself open for a lot of criticism by your seemingly stubborn
opposition to doing a little reading.....


You are right on the number (few) and I have purchased and read several
recommended books since that discussion took place. I have done a great
deal of reading on the internet which is my library but asking a group for
more links or answers to specific questions need not be construed as lazy or
wierd.


If someone asks you
how to make beer, are willing to handhold them through the entire
process....


I covered that last posting with the violin anology. I never asked anyone
how to make jewelry or a silver chalice. I believe I asked questions about
specific aspects of this craft that had not been clear or were new to me.


if they show no inclination to pick up a book or 2 or read about
the process on-line? Even if you honestly think you would (I'm sure
COULD) can you not imagine some people would find it frustrating?


Obviously a misunderstanding of my position.


I don't think there are a 'bunch' of egomaniacs here. Just 2-3 folks
kinda' curmudgeonly. Probably no more than most newsgroups.


Again, you are right on the number but it really is a new experience for me
and I have been on the internet since long before Al Gore invented it. In
fact, as I recall, there were about 300 newsgroups then and a web was were
spiders lived.

js



--
to reply, change ( .not) to ( .net)

"Carl 1 Lucky Texan"

How about a quick review of the books you have?

Complete Metalsmith.

Setting Stones and Diamonds

Treasury of Gems and Jewels

About a dozen on rocks, minerals and gemstones.

3 nearly wrothless metal working ones bought at a craft store whose titles
are not worth mentioning if I did remember them.

I have several thousand other books in my library just in case someone
misreads your question.

js


--
PHOTO OF THE WEEK: http://schmidling.netfirms.com/pow.htm
Astronomy, Beer, Cheese, Gems, Sausage, http://schmidling.netfirms.com

NE333RO wrote:
I woke this morning with the above title in my head.
So I asked myself the question?
why is it that this trade is accused of being reluctant to divulge its
knowhow? particularly on this newsgroup


I have never asked the question "who has the right to know." From my
standpoint everybody has the "right" to know. Nor have I ever seen (with the
exception of pricing) a question asked, that was not answered because of a
"right to know."
There are certainly many different personalities on here, just as there are
in the real world. There might even be a few who think that way, but I have yet
to see any evidence of that. On the other hand, there are many of us who have
worked hard for the knowledge that we have, and do desire/require a certain
level of respect from a questioner if they want the benefit of what we know. We
all have different ideas about what form that respect should take.
A real world example would be someone walking up to me on the street and
saying "Hey asshole, where's 54th avenue?" They would get no answer from me (or
I suspect most people) and would get a rather large piece of my mind. I would
have a similar response for someone that TOLD me I was going to give them
directions. I have the answer, they don't, I expect some common courtesy. I
also have little patience for those that get my directions and then say "no,
that's not where it is." If they knew so much, why did they need to ask.
When it comes to jewelry questions, I have some things that I would like
from a questioner, and some things that I require. Just like in the real world.
I would like someone asking a question to do some research up front. I don't
require it, but it's nice to know that they are serious enough to have looked
into it first. It tells me that they are serious and I'm not wasting my time.
What I REQUIRE from a questioner, is some common curtesy. Ask, don't tell.
Listen don't talk. A bad attitude gets a response in kind.
Pricing is the one subject on here where questions generally are not
answered due to "need to know." As in every other business, my costs are not
the business of those outside of the jewelry business. I choose not to cut my
own throat by telling consumers what my markup/costs are.


and I include myself in this when other skills like those recently
mentioned here, for example beer, bread, sausage making etc, the
knowhow is freely available everywhere? for the asking.


What particular knowledge of the jewelry business is not out there, easily
accessible, to the general public? With the exception of pricing, I can think
of no deep dark knowledge, hidden from the public.


Herin lies I think , the answer.
Any hard won knowhow isnt for free, and I dont think ever will be.
The enquirer has to be seen to be making a real effort first before
being admitted to the mysteries of the craft. ( As described in medieval
apprenticship indentures)
I am bound by this tradition out of respect for all the smiths that have
gone before me, and whose knowhow Ive learned in the same way as they did.
What do you all think?


I know of no "mysteries of the craft," and don't feel bound by any
tradition. I do, however, expect a certain amount of curtesy from somebody that
want's to benefit from a pool of experience that I have worked long and hard to
obtain. Seems like a cheap price to me.
Hi All,
I suppose as usual Im thinking from my own standpoint.
where you say you know of no knowledge thats not easily available, I
guess your right when it applies to the work of a jeweller. Yes just
about everything you need to know is out there.
however much as I appreciate the work of jewellers in the true sense
of the word, My work has mainly been involved in wrought work on a larger
scale
..
In this field I certainly have techniques that are not generally
available to the metal smith and in certain circumstances have never
been used before.
I do consider these techniques to be valuable in the commercial sense
and only my closest relatives know of them. For example one of my
product uses titanium 1/4in thick is cold forged into bowls and
dishes. How its done is commercially very valuable.and therefore not
disclosed in any way to the buyer. Or anyone else for that matter.
Also In another product line ive made over many years how I achieve the
results is not known. This involved the fusion of stainless steel in a
particular way to solve a bracelet design problem. Strangely a design
for the "Dark ages" period I was interpreting .
As of now theres no one to follow on with my workshop and techniques,
tho my son just 21 knows just about everything ive done.
Thank you everyone for some very enlightening comments.
Lets keep on metal working.
Regards Ted Frater