reparing 14k v 18k

Most of my gold repairs are on 10k and 14k gold. Usually no problems.

Last night I had a repair/resize on a thin, wide, cast 18k ring. I figured I'd
be polite and use hard solder. I was using a soft brushy flame at a fair
distance trying to bring everything up to temp in an even, gentle manner. About
the same time the solder started to flow, the edges of the ring started
melting. I was surprised.

Added another 20-30 minutes of plastic surgery to the job. Feh.

Suggestions, insights for the future?

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"Carl West" wrote in message
...
Most of my gold repairs are on 10k and 14k gold. Usually no
problems.

Last night I had a repair/resize on a thin, wide, cast 18k ring. I
figured I'd
be polite and use hard solder. I was using a soft brushy flame at a
fair
distance trying to bring everything up to temp in an even, gentle
manner. About
the same time the solder started to flow, the edges of the ring
started
melting. I was surprised.

18ct easy would have been fine, not hard solder.

Generally, hard 18ct solders are used for jobs* like re-tipping,
etc, where you need to go down the grades of solder to add more than
several prongs (claws) to a ring head/setting. Solder the claws using
'hard' solder first, then work your way down through 'medium' and then
to 'easy' for the last claws. This is the same for other carats of
gold if the solder is available.

*Or heavy Gents shanks, etc.



Added another 20-30 minutes of plastic surgery to the job. Feh.


I wore the Tee-Shirt some time ago now...



Suggestions, insights for the future?

I hope I've helped.

-SP-


Carl West

HeH! Each K grade has its own requirements for solder. It "should"* be
obvious that each K has a different melting temperature and that the solder
used must correspond both in color and melting characteristics. I originally
thought to be flip and just write: "Use medium or soft solder." but then
changed my mind because that is not "quite" right.

*What is absolutely obvious and transparent to me might seem to be some
deep dark secret to others and so I changed my response.

--

Don Thompson

"The only stupid questions are those that should have been asked, but
weren't, or those that have been asked and answered over and over, but the
answers not listened to." Peter Rowe


"Carl West" wrote in message
...
Most of my gold repairs are on 10k and 14k gold. Usually no problems.

Last night I had a repair/resize on a thin, wide, cast 18k ring. I figured
I'd
be polite and use hard solder. I was using a soft brushy flame at a fair
distance trying to bring everything up to temp in an even, gentle manner.
About
the same time the solder started to flow, the edges of the ring started
melting. I was surprised.

Added another 20-30 minutes of plastic surgery to the job. Feh.

Suggestions, insights for the future?

--


If you try to 'reply' to me without fixing the dot, your reply
will go into a 'special' mailbox reserved for spam. See below.


--
Carl West http://carl.west.home.comcast.net

change the 'DOT' to '.' to email me

"Clutter"? This is an object-rich environment.

Don T wrote:

HeH! Each K grade has its own requirements for solder. It "should"* be
obvious that each K has a different melting temperature and that the solder
used must correspond both in color and melting characteristics. I originally
thought to be flip and just write: "Use medium or soft solder." but then
changed my mind because that is not "quite" right.

*What is absolutely obvious and transparent to me might seem to be some
deep dark secret to others and so I changed my response.


Starting by assuming that I'm ignorant and doing bad work with wrong materials
then telling us you're not being as flip as you could be would be an acceptable
introduction to some informative, helpful information or insight. But you
stopped short of actually being helpful. Why?

Actually, I don't particularly care why, but if you have any insight to share
regarding my jewelry based question, I'd love to read it.


Anyway...

Sorry, I failed to mention that I was using 18k solder. If I hadn't had the
solder, I wouldn't have taken the job. I occasionally have to turn away jobs on
20k and Indian 22k and 24k. I don't have the solder. (BTW, aside from fusing
it, what _do_ you do to join 24k? Are there really-low-alloy solders that
qualify as 24k?)

I was taught that when I do a re-size, I should use the hardest solder that'll
do the job. It'll wear better and the next person to work on the ring won't
necessarily be screwed the way they would be if I used easy/soft.


OK, the whole soldering story in detail:

The ring had broken in the middle of the shank
The shank was ~2.5mm x .4mm with the edges feathered from wear
The customer wanted it taken down a size while I was at it

So I...
Cut the ends square and bent them to line up and touch with slight positive
pressure
Cut a piece of 18k hard solder about half again the size I figured was really
necessary for the joint (on this one I preferred the idea of a little extra
filing to having to visit the thing twice with the torch)
Slipped the solder between the ends of the shank, fluxed it (Battens)
Gripped it with a third hand, joint up
Used a smallish, gentle OA flame to heat the joint and 1/4" in each direction
Turned out there were other stresses in the ring, when the solder went mushy
(not quite melted) the ends of the shank mis-aligned themselves.
Away with the torch.
Used a full set of choice words, the edges of the shank had melted just a
little, even before the solder, which hadn't quite gone liquid.
Sawed out the unhappy bit
Annealed the ring (one lesson re-learned)
Lined it up again
Same process but without clamping the solder in the loint
Even gentler with the flame
The solder ran. some. The joint was made but there was still a big ol'
carbuncle of solder where I'd placed it and the edge of the shank had melted
again (~.1mm)
details of the filling-in and hammering-out elided


The conclusions I draw from this experience a

1) If the piece is cast, don't try to use hard solder
2) Anneal the ring as much as possible so it'll keep the alignment you give it

Are these valid conclusions?
What other lesson(s) am I missing here?


"Carl West" wrote in message
...
Most of my gold repairs are on 10k and 14k gold. Usually no problems.

Last night I had a repair/resize on a thin, wide, cast 18k ring. I figured
I'd
be polite and use hard solder. I was using a soft brushy flame at a fair
distance trying to bring everything up to temp in an even, gentle manner.
About
the same time the solder started to flow, the edges of the ring started
melting. I was surprised.

Added another 20-30 minutes of plastic surgery to the job. Feh.

Suggestions, insights for the future?


--


If you try to 'reply' to me without fixing the dot, your reply
will go into a 'special' mailbox reserved for spam. See below.


--
Carl West http://carl.west.home.comcast.net

change the 'DOT' to '.' to email me

"Clutter"? This is an object-rich environment.

On Tue, 06 Apr 2004 00:56:09 -0700, in rec.crafts.jewelry Carl West
wrote:


Anyway...

Sorry, I failed to mention that I was using 18k solder. If I hadn't had the
solder, I wouldn't have taken the job. I occasionally have to turn away jobs on
20k and Indian 22k and 24k. I don't have the solder. (BTW, aside from fusing
it, what _do_ you do to join 24k? Are there really-low-alloy solders that
qualify as 24k?)

there are solders made for the new 24K micro alloys, which can be marked 24K,
but which have trace additions of indium and calcium that harden it to about
the level of 18k. I've not tried the solders, but expect those would work.
I'm told the color match is good.

Barring that, use 22K solder. the color match, if your seam is tight and you
don't overdo the solder, will be just fine.


I was taught that when I do a re-size, I should use the hardest solder that'll
do the job. It'll wear better and the next person to work on the ring won't
necessarily be screwed the way they would be if I used easy/soft.

I'd agree with that method. using easy solder on a sizing is generally to be
avoided if possible. Strength is less, and color match is poorer. On the
other hand, it IS safer in terms of overheating, and sometimes, when a ring has
been previously worked on, you may not want to risk a hard solder. that's
sometimes a tough call, but in general, if you're not sure, drop down a grade
in solder melting point. And try to remember to check for previous solder
seams when sizing, usually before you cut into the ring.


Used a smallish, gentle OA flame to heat the joint and 1/4" in each direction
Turned out there were other stresses in the ring, when the solder went mushy
(not quite melted) the ends of the shank mis-aligned themselves.

soldering gold is not always the same as with silver, where one strives to heat
everything evenly. With gold, sometimes it's best to use a small fairly hot
flame to heat just the joint, and concentrating on the solder. this is,
technically, poor soldering technique, but is more like what you'd do in
fusing/welding the shank. In gold, with good enough flux, it works, and tends
to minimize damage. On the other hand, if the edges are very thin, then it can
be risky to solder no matter how you heat it, and in some such cases, my method
is worse. One key is keeping a very close eye on what you're doing, so you
can pull away the instant it looks like something unfortunate is happening.
Sometimes, not always, you can get out in time.

The joint was made but there was still a big ol'
carbuncle of solder where I'd placed it and the edge of the shank had melted
again (~.1mm)

The bit of remaining solder is fine, so long as some of it flowed into the
joints. On some alloys, solders will tend to work this way. the new plumb
platinum solders, for example, do this a lot. All you need is for some of it
to have flowed into the joint. Trying to get all of it to flow may feel good,
but is adding more heat.

And it should be mentioned that all gold alloys are not the same. Even if they
look like the same color, and one knows the karat, some manufacutrers may do
things like using more zinc than standard, which will lower the melting point
of the alloy, perhaps below that of your standard solders. These rings are
made mostly to exist as time bombs aimed an unwary jewelers (grin). the only
real defense is to be very aware that this is possible, and at the first hint
that you have such an alloy, drop down to a lower solder. Your first accident
was understandable, but it should have taught you that this particular alloy
wasn't going to cooperate with your hard solder. At that point, for your
second attempt, you should have dropped down in solder grade. This occasional
mismatch is one reason why sometimes just fusing/welding a shank can be the
easiest, since those lower melting alloys often are the easiest to fuse. But
wide, thin sections shanks are really hard to fuse without melting the edges
in. One thought that can help, when sizing a ring smaller like this, is to
carefully keep the bit you cut out. solder or fuse the shank, letting a little
bit melt in on the edge if it must. then you cut that little removed piece in
half, and with a small tight flame, fuse a little bit back into each "dip" on
each side. All this amounts to more work than a routine sizing, and also would
qualify for somewhat of a 'cowboy" approach to craftsmanship, but sometimes,
you need to do things like that to move on to the next job...


1) If the piece is cast, don't try to use hard solder

no. Casting isn't the issue. the alloy used to cast is, and occasionally
you'll see such problems in die struck pieces as well. One clue can be visible
solder lines from previous joints, or a paler or less intense color than you
might expect.

2) Anneal the ring as much as possible so it'll keep the alignment you give it

Shouldnt' be needed, at least on most yellow old rings. Anneal it if you fear
that rounding out the ring after sizing will crack something. normally, you
just control how much tension you put into the joint so it's no more than
needed. if you anneal the ring more than you need to to do the job, you make
the ring less durable for the owner.

Live and learn. The more you do this, the more often you'll foresee the
problems before they jump up and bite you somewhere, and the more comfortable
you'll be with knowing the fix when there IS a problem.

cheers

peter

Carl West wrote:

The conclusions I draw from this experience a

1) If the piece is cast, don't try to use hard solder

Wrong conclusion! There is nothing wrong with using 18K hard solder on an 18K
casting. The fact that a piece has been cast has nothing to do with the
ability
to use hard solder on it.

Most likely there was something screwy going on with the ring that you were
trying to repair. Did you do a qualitative gold test on it? It might not have
been an 18K ring, even though it was marked as such.

Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com

"Carl West" wrote in message
...

Don T wrote:

HeH! Each K grade has its own requirements for solder. It "should"* be
obvious that each K has a different melting temperature and that the
solder
used must correspond both in color and melting characteristics. I
originally
thought to be flip and just write: "Use medium or soft solder." but then
changed my mind because that is not "quite" right.

*What is absolutely obvious and transparent to me might seem to be
some
deep dark secret to others and so I changed my response.


Starting by assuming that I'm ignorant and doing bad work with wrong
materials
then telling us you're not being as flip as you could be would be an
acceptable
introduction to some informative, helpful information or insight. But you
stopped short of actually being helpful. Why?


Because your "jewelry based question" had no information other than that
you tried hard solder on an 18K ring when you usually work 10K and 14K and
that you had melted the edges.

Want more information? Include more detail. Simple enough.



--

Don Thompson

"The only stupid questions are those that should have been asked, but
weren't, or those that have been asked and answered over and over, but the
answers not listened to." Peter Rowe

Abrasha wrote:

Carl West wrote:

The conclusions I draw from this experience a

1) If the piece is cast, don't try to use hard solder

Wrong conclusion! There is nothing wrong with using 18K hard solder on an 18K
casting. The fact that a piece has been cast has nothing to do with the
ability to use hard solder on it.

OK, good point, most stuff works fine, but when I've had problems it's usually
cast
(or the really thin hollow stuff). But not all cast stuff is a problem.


Most likely there was something screwy going on with the ring that you were
trying to repair.

I hope so. There was no sign of previous work
and I guess there are no outward warning signs except:

Did you do a qualitative gold test on it? It might not have
been an 18K ring, even though it was marked as such.

I'm not in the habit. yet.
I've got a touchstone and reagents & knowns for, um 10, 14, and 18 I think.
Is there a better/faster/easier/cheaper way?


--


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will go into a 'special' mailbox reserved for spam. See below.


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"Clutter"? This is an object-rich environment.

"Peter W. Rowe" wrote:
...
soldering gold is not always the same as with silver, where one strives to heat
everything evenly. With gold, sometimes it's best to use a small fairly hot
flame to heat just the joint, and concentrating on the solder. this is,
technically, poor soldering technique, but is more like what you'd do in
fusing/welding the shank. In gold, with good enough flux, it works, and tends
to minimize damage. On the other hand, if the edges are very thin, then it can
be risky to solder no matter how you heat it, and in some such cases, my method
is worse. One key is keeping a very close eye on what you're doing, so you
can pull away the instant it looks like something unfortunate is happening.
Sometimes, not always, you can get out in time.

I do a lot of hollow chain and X&O bracelet repair and the soft flame approach
works best for me there. If I try to go in hot and fast, even the _slightest_
hiccup with the placement of the flame puts a hole in a wrong place. The day
may come when I'm good enough to do it hot & fast, but it ain't today. I looked
at the thin ring and figured that the soft flame was the way for me to deal
with it.


The joint was made but there was still a big ol'
carbuncle of solder where I'd placed it ...
... Trying to get all of it to flow may feel good,
but is adding more heat.

I tried re-visiting it, but it was quickly clear it wasn't going to get me
anything good.



...Your first accident
was understandable, but it should have taught you that this particular alloy
wasn't going to cooperate with your hard solder. At that point, for your
second attempt, you should have dropped down in solder grade.

I thought about it but decided that I been too impatient. I was partially
right, I did get actual flow the second time and less melting of the ring than
the first time.



no. Casting isn't the issue. the alloy used to cast is, and occasionally
you'll see such problems in die struck pieces as well. One clue can be visible
solder lines from previous joints, or a paler or less intense color than you
might expect.

Hmmm. Y'know, the piece was a little pale...


Live and learn. The more you do this, the more often you'll foresee the
problems before they jump up and bite you somewhere, and the more comfortable
you'll be with knowing the fix when there IS a problem.

Yup. I've been doing watch and jewelry repair for a little over a year and I'm
learning every day. I often look at the job I'm doing and think, "A month ago,
this'd've scared the snot outta me."


--


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"Clutter"? This is an object-rich environment.

On Wed, 07 Apr 2004 07:42:03 -0700, in rec.crafts.jewelry Carl West
wrote:


I do a lot of hollow chain and X&O bracelet repair and the soft flame approach
works best for me there. If I try to go in hot and fast, even the _slightest_
hiccup with the placement of the flame puts a hole in a wrong place. The day
may come when I'm good enough to do it hot & fast, but it ain't today. I looked
at the thin ring and figured that the soft flame was the way for me to deal
with it.


Ring shanks are not usually the same sort of thing as hollow chains or stampato
work (those X&O things). The latter are always very thin, often flooded with
the solder used to bond the backings to the front stampings, and by the time we
see them for repair, are often even thinner than the already light weight they
were when made. For that kind of work, you do indeed need to use very gentle
heat, and assume it will melt if you even slightly overdo it. Most ring shanks
are much much heavier, even the rather worn ones. However, not seeing your
ring in question, I can only say that as a generality. I have seen some that
are foil thin, now and then, and these do require extra care. Yet in general,
I find that repairing gold jewelry is different from fabrication, both in gold
and silver, in that you're often best off limiting the heat that parts other
than your repair are going to get. Too many unknowns. So while you may not
want to go with hot and fast, you probably should usually try to use at least a
small flame for most repair work, especially those chains. That way, if you DO
have a problem, it will be at least limited in size.


I thought about it but decided that I been too impatient. I was partially
right, I did get actual flow the second time and less melting of the ring than
the first time.


OK, but partially right in this case still meant additional damage, even if
less than the first time, right? When it happens the first time, assume it may
happen again, unless you KNOW it was your fault, and can avoid the cause.


Hmmm. Y'know, the piece was a little pale...



With most 18K, both used in casting and fabricated/stamped work, zinc is not
normally used as a deoxidizer for the alloy. But a few manufacturers may use a
little zinc, even if it does make the color less intense, and the alloy a bit
weaker, since it also can sometimes improve flow/fill. Generally, it's not a
good thing, especially for goldsmiths, who will then be surprised at an
unusually low melting point. The same may well be true when the alloy is
different in it's ratio of silver to copper, than one may be used to, since
this can also alter the melting point, and Murphy's law will conspire generally
to lower the melting point, not raise it. Adiditionally, such variances in the
metal composition will have a major effect on the way solder flows. A solder
that normally flows out well along a joint might, with different alloy
compositions, tend to just sink in where it is, rather than flowing along a
joint. I suspect that this is what you experienced. This then not only leads
you to use more heat than the alloy wants to allow, in attempting to get the
solder to flow, but also is one possible culprit for the solder leaving a
visible lump when you expected it to flow out. Any time a normally good
flowing solder does that, (and you know the metal was clean, and well fluxed),
then assume you've got a non-standard alloy.

Yup. I've been doing watch and jewelry repair for a little over a year and I'm
learning every day. I often look at the job I'm doing and think, "A month ago,
this'd've scared the snot outta me."


One good thing. You learn more from mistakes than from successes. Until
you've had a thing go wrong several ways, it's sometimes hard to fully
understand why the right way is indeed the right way. So mistakes are not
totally bad things.

I still recall one of my first white gold ring repairs, back in '74, as a newly
hired bench worker. A typical ladies diamond ring from the 40s, stamped
filligree sides, a plate on the top with pinpoint prongs that were now worn and
needing retipping. A job that would normally take just a few minutes. But I
was missing some key information at that point. Didn't know you could solder
directly onto a diamond. So I carefully cut away the tips, removed the
diamond, cut the remaining prong wire stubs flat, and carefully, using easy
solder, of course, soldered little wire stubs onto the top to extend the
prongs. Looked wonderful. Then I recut a seat, and attempted to reset the
diamond. Needless to say, the prongs snapped right off again at the solder
joints. OK. So I tried again, this time with a medium solder, and
angled/beveled joints, and thinking I'd not had a good solder joint, heated
from the back and underneath with a soft gentle flame. Good solder flow
followed, but when I then took the ring from the pickle, I found that in the
process, I'd melted much of that filligree on the back of the ring where I
couldn't see it while soldering. So then I had to solder in a bit of sheet,
and drill and pierce out the side to replace the filligree. About the time I
got that done, as it happened, a tools/supplies salesman happened to come by,
and quietly filled me in on the tidbit that I could indeed solder on a clean,
fluxed, diamond. So then i was able to repair the prong that again cracked off
while resetting the stone. All in all, it took me about 3-4 hours to retip
that silly ring. Thankfully, it looked OK, and the customer took it, and my
boss later told me he'd sorta expected me to have some sort of learning
experience with it, but that I'd run into a little more trouble than even he'd
expected. We were both relieved, and I remember that ring, and what it taught
me, to this day. Had it just gone wonderfully without trouble, it might have
taken me a lot longer to learn things about retipping a ring...

cheers

Peter