The Strongest Bend That Can Be Untied By Hand

Hi All,

I have (one supposes) "rediscovered" a knot that I think will
prove most valuable. At any rate, I have not seen it in any of my
references. It is, I believe, the strongest bend that can be untied
bare-handed after the rope has been brought to the breaking point.

In destructive testing in which it was tied in series with a
Hunter's bend, the Hunter's bend always parted (or slipped and parted)
and my bend was always capable of being untied without use of a
marlinspike or other artificial means. I have run countless tests
with the knot in series with all the bends and either they parted or
they were incapable of being untied bare handed. This knot is as easy
to untie as a Zeppelin bend but is much stronger.

The knot makes use of two interlinked figure eight knots, but only
the outer loops of the figure eights are linked. There are pictures
of the knot on Mr. Peter Suber's excellent web site
http://www.earlham.edu/~peters/knotgrfx/gallery.htm. In the
expanded view, the knot looks difficult to tie, but it is not. I tie
the first figure eight in my left-hand rope and then feed the end of
the right-hand rope through its outer loop in the same direction as,
and passing around the end of the left-hand figure eight. Then,
completing the right-hand figure eight, one tucks the end through the
intersection of the two figure eights in the opposite direction to the
left-hand end and you're done except for tightening and dressing the
knot.

I was lucky enough to have found this knot while undertaking some
trials to find the strongest untieable bend. I call it the Figure
Four bend since it's half a figure eight bend. I hope you will find
it useful. I have heard of some braided climbing rope that supposedly
will slip the core if tied with a double fisherman's bend, but will
lock the core if tied with a triple one. I'd like to try my bend on
that material. If anyone can undertake that test for me, I'd be most
grateful. Climbers and sailors are naturally suspicious of anyone
telling them they can bet their life on a new knot, but I think this
one may belong in their repertoire.

Regards,
O J Gritmon
)

Very interesting knot. Please post some step-by-step pics for those of us
in the remedial knotting class.


"O J" wrote in message
...
Hi All,

I have (one supposes) "rediscovered" a knot that I think will
prove most valuable. At any rate, I have not seen it in any of my
references. It is, I believe, the strongest bend that can be untied
bare-handed after the rope has been brought to the breaking point.

In destructive testing in which it was tied in series with a
Hunter's bend, the Hunter's bend always parted (or slipped and parted)
and my bend was always capable of being untied without use of a
marlinspike or other artificial means. I have run countless tests
with the knot in series with all the bends and either they parted or
they were incapable of being untied bare handed. This knot is as easy
to untie as a Zeppelin bend but is much stronger.

The knot makes use of two interlinked figure eight knots, but only
the outer loops of the figure eights are linked. There are pictures
of the knot on Mr. Peter Suber's excellent web site
http://www.earlham.edu/~peters/knotgrfx/gallery.htm. In the
expanded view, the knot looks difficult to tie, but it is not. I tie
the first figure eight in my left-hand rope and then feed the end of
the right-hand rope through its outer loop in the same direction as,
and passing around the end of the left-hand figure eight. Then,
completing the right-hand figure eight, one tucks the end through the
intersection of the two figure eights in the opposite direction to the
left-hand end and you're done except for tightening and dressing the
knot.

I was lucky enough to have found this knot while undertaking some
trials to find the strongest untieable bend. I call it the Figure
Four bend since it's half a figure eight bend. I hope you will find
it useful. I have heard of some braided climbing rope that supposedly
will slip the core if tied with a double fisherman's bend, but will
lock the core if tied with a triple one. I'd like to try my bend on
that material. If anyone can undertake that test for me, I'd be most
grateful. Climbers and sailors are naturally suspicious of anyone
telling them they can bet their life on a new knot, but I think this
one may belong in their repertoire.

Regards,
O J Gritmon
)

On Tue, 13 Jan 2004 06:18:19 GMT, "Jostmo"
wrote:

Very interesting knot. Please post some step-by-step pics for those of us
in the remedial knotting class.


Sorry you're having trouble with it. I'll check with Peter, the
webmaster of the site to see what the reaction has been. The trouble
may come when you are starting the right-hand end through the loop
and wrapping it around the running end of the left-hand figure eight
-- it's easy to start in the wrong direction. Just follow diagram one
and alternately pull the standing parts and the ends. Hope this works
for you.

Regards,
O J

On Tue, 13 Jan 2004 06:18:19 GMT, "Jostmo"
wrote:

Very interesting knot. Please post some step-by-step pics for those of us
in the remedial knotting class.


Bowing to popular pressure, I've forwarded more detailed drawings
and text to Mr. Peter Suber, the webmaster. They should be up in a
day or so.

Regards,
O J

I don't know if you noticed, but, unless I'm mistaken, the bend is
based on the rigger's bend (a.k.a Hunter's bend). In fact, that's
been the only way I've been able to commit it to memory. I tie a
rigger's bend first, back the ends out from the center "eye", wrap
them around the standing parts, and then re-insert them in the center
"eye" but in the opposite manner from the original rigger's bend.

[Sadly, I was unable to find the correct & quick manner of tying the
rigger's bend after a quick online search. Well, I'm not that sad...
it tends to jam anyway]

It's somewhat similar to the Long Ashley bend being a modification of
the Ashley bend.

http://www.geocities.com/roo_two/longashley.html



We've had a discussion about the drawbacks of head-to-head strength
testing in this group before. Search Google groups under
rec.crafts.knots for "bulldog", and the thread should come up.

or

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=e...c.crafts.knots

There are different failure bell-curves for any given knot in a
particular rope type, and the overlap of these curves will often cause
misleading and contradictory outcomes in head-to-head testing. Not
that I would take the time and expense to measure minimum breaking
loads for bends in different rope types, but it would be revealing to
see exactly what percentage advantage of strength the "stongest" bends
have over "average" bends.

I hope an easy way (for the general public) of tying the bend in
question emerges. If it does, and other testing proves it out, I may
consider bumping the Long Ashley bend from the front of the Notable
Knot Index in favor of it, since they have similar niches.

Cheers,
roo



(O J) wrote in message ...
Hi All,

I have (one supposes) "rediscovered" a knot that I think will
prove most valuable. At any rate, I have not seen it in any of my
references. It is, I believe, the strongest bend that can be untied
bare-handed after the rope has been brought to the breaking point.

In destructive testing in which it was tied in series with a
Hunter's bend, the Hunter's bend always parted (or slipped and parted)
and my bend was always capable of being untied without use of a
marlinspike or other artificial means. I have run countless tests
with the knot in series with all the bends and either they parted or
they were incapable of being untied bare handed. This knot is as easy
to untie as a Zeppelin bend but is much stronger.

The knot makes use of two interlinked figure eight knots, but only
the outer loops of the figure eights are linked. There are pictures
of the knot on Mr. Peter Suber's excellent web site
http://www.earlham.edu/~peters/knotgrfx/gallery.htm. In the
expanded view, the knot looks difficult to tie, but it is not. I tie
the first figure eight in my left-hand rope and then feed the end of
the right-hand rope through its outer loop in the same direction as,
and passing around the end of the left-hand figure eight. Then,
completing the right-hand figure eight, one tucks the end through the
intersection of the two figure eights in the opposite direction to the
left-hand end and you're done except for tightening and dressing the
knot.

I was lucky enough to have found this knot while undertaking some
trials to find the strongest untieable bend. I call it the Figure
Four bend since it's half a figure eight bend. I hope you will find
it useful. I have heard of some braided climbing rope that supposedly
will slip the core if tied with a double fisherman's bend, but will
lock the core if tied with a triple one. I'd like to try my bend on
that material. If anyone can undertake that test for me, I'd be most
grateful. Climbers and sailors are naturally suspicious of anyone
telling them they can bet their life on a new knot, but I think this
one may belong in their repertoire.

Regards,
O J Gritmon
)

I have (one supposes) "rediscovered" a knot that I think
will prove most valuable. At any rate, I have not seen it in
any of my references.

What references do you have available?
Note that if one changes the last movement of the rope as each
end forms the knot, making a sooner tuck to get interlocked
overhands vice fig.8s, one has SmitHunter's Bend (#1425a);
if one wants to have overhands but with the ends still in
the same exit orientation to the SParts, then change the
initial pass of end w/SPart; in this case, you get a sort
of SmitHunter variant, which itself appears to be easily
untied (but tricky to dress & set into a balanced knot!).
By reorienting the ends in this knot, one can obtain a
better (more easily) balanced bend, named "Shakehands" by
Harry Asher (try it w/loose collars).

It is, I believe, the strongest bend that can be untied
bare-handed after the rope has been brought to the breaking point.

That's a "strong" assertion!
We'll be happy to learn how you've come to believe it. For
you've surely done a bit of repeat testing like that done by
Murlle, cited below--and that's how science advances. Let's
see if your results match his.

In destructive testing in which it was tied in series with a
Hunter's bend, the Hunter's bend always parted (or slipped and parted)
and my bend was always capable of being untied without use of a
marlinspike or other artificial means. I have run countless tests
with the knot in series with all the bends

I don't believe "countless" (alas, maybe it's "uncounted" ),
and certainly not "all" (as that's uncountable): exactly what
knots have you tested, and how?

About a year ago, "Murlle" posted test results he got by doing
A v. B testing with several bends, in his pursuit of appreciating
Ashley's #1425; he also tested Rosendahl's (Zeppelin) Bend, #1452,
SmitHunter's (#1425a), the Blood, & Carrick, among others. In Murlle's
tests, he had many cases of mixed results (i.e., each of two tested
knots in opposition broke at least once, but one more than the other
--a non-shut-out score); did you find this, too, sometimes?
Confer www.geocities.com/trukar/ for further information. He used
solid-braid nylon, in sizes 3/16", 1/4", & 3/8", and his truck.

This knot is as easy to untie as a Zeppelin [Rosendahl's] bend
but is much stronger.

How can you quantify "much"?

Climbers and sailors are naturally suspicious of anyone
telling them they can bet their life on a new knot, but I think this
one may belong in their repertoire.

I don't hold out much hope that the interlocked fig.8 bend will gain
favor--certainly NOT with climbers, who want greater security (when
slack) in a knot. And frankly I don't see this candidate as appealing
as "Ashley's Bend" (#1452) or #1425.

Cheers,
--dl*
====
[ps: Net Nanny Danny reminds folks to trim unneeded copied text! ]

On 13 Jan 2004 21:41:19 -0800, (Dan Lehman)
wrote:

What references do you have available?

Ashley's and a few others

It is, I believe, the strongest bend that can be untied
bare-handed after the rope has been brought to the breaking point.

That's a "strong" assertion!
We'll be happy to learn how you've come to believe it.

You said it -- it's a strong assertion; and strong assertions require
strong proof. I tied all the bends I thought passed Ashleys
requirements in 1425.

Ashley:
"Unless a bend, requiring as many crossings as this one
posesses some particularly desirable feature beyond other
bends, it is of interest only if it is decorative."

They were tied in the same piece of 400lb test four-strand line and
shock-loaded it till one of the knots broke. The shock loading was
five gentle tugs followed by five firmer tugs etc. till one of the
knots parted. After this, when appropriate, I tried to untie the
remaining knot.

This knot is as easy to untie as a Zeppelin [Rosendahl's] bend
but is much stronger.

How can you quantify "much"?

The Zeppelin bend always broke first. It was not the strongest of the
knots that lost to the figure-four.

Climbers and sailors are naturally suspicious of anyone
telling them they can bet their life on a new knot, but I think this
one may belong in their repertoire.

I don't hold out much hope that the interlocked fig.8 bend will gain
favor--certainly NOT with climbers, who want greater security (when
slack) in a knot. And frankly I don't see this candidate as appealing
as "Ashley's Bend" (#1452) or #1425.

The 'figure-four' bend was always capable of being untied by hand,
while the knots that beat it for strength, were not. Incidentally,
1425 beat the figure-four in strength, but if you can untie it, I'll
eat the line it's tied in. (G). 1452 was not as strong as the figure
four. The folk in rec.climbing were mostly tolerant, but
understandably skeptical - I would be too.

Cheers,
--dl*

Thanks for the peer review. I omitted a lot of the background in the
original post, but I have gone through a lot of cord, and I still
believe it's the strongest etc...

Regards,
O J

On 13 Jan 2004 14:29:39 -0800, (roo) wrote:

I don't know if you noticed, but, unless I'm mistaken, the bend is
based on the rigger's bend (a.k.a Hunter's bend). In fact, that's
been the only way I've been able to commit it to memory. I tie a
rigger's bend first, back the ends out from the center "eye", wrap
them around the standing parts, and then re-insert them in the center
"eye" but in the opposite manner from the original rigger's bend.

[Sadly, I was unable to find the correct & quick manner of tying the
rigger's bend after a quick online search. Well, I'm not that sad...
it tends to jam anyway]

In one sense it is based on the rigger's bend. Instead of interlocked
overhand knots it uses interlocked figure eight knots. I tie it the
same way as I tie the rigger's -- first tie an overhand or figure
eight in the left-hand. Then feed the right-hand rope through it as
appropriate. I can tie it in a few seconds blindfolded, so I'm sure
it's not beyond anyone's grasp. Per popular request, I forwarded to
Peter Suber, the webmaster of the site where it's posted some upgraded
scans with annotation -- this should make the method of tieing
plainer.


There are different failure bell-curves for any given knot in a
particular rope type, and the overlap of these curves will often cause
misleading and contradictory outcomes in head-to-head testing. Not
that I would take the time and expense to measure minimum breaking
loads for bends in different rope types, but it would be revealing to
see exactly what percentage advantage of strength the "stongest" bends
have over "average" bends.

The results were fairly consistent with the 400lb. test, 4-strand cord
I was using, with very few anomalies.

I hope an easy way (for the general public) of tying the bend in
question emerges. If it does, and other testing proves it out, I may
consider bumping the Long Ashley bend from the front of the Notable
Knot Index in favor of it, since they have similar niches.

The figure-four was stronger than the long Ashley's bend in five
head-to-head tests I just performed. If the method of tieing the
figure-eight in the left hand rope first is practiced, I feel this is
within any knot tier's grasp.

Cheers,
roo

Thanks for a thoughtful peer review. Strong assertions require strong
proof. I was wondering if anyone was interested in the background
data, I'm glad to see someone was paying attention.

Regards,
O J

(O J) wrote in message ...
On 13 Jan 2004 21:41:19 -0800, (Dan Lehman)
wrote:
It is, I believe, the strongest bend that can be untied
bare-handed after the rope has been brought to the breaking point.

That's a "strong" assertion!

Hi OJ,

Interesting, you did research in order to find a strong knot that can
be untied bare handed.
Please, please be more specific in providing testdata.
For example in a list with:
What knot is tested against what other knot?
How many times you repeated each test?
What was the score?
Could the winning knot be untied barehanded?

Can you give us your full list of results, not just your conclusions?
May be you made notes, took pictures and want to share them?

Nice to learn another knot.
In order to have an idea of it's strength, I like to know if it
outperformed the double fisherman's bend (ABOK 1415).
Is it as easy to untie as a twin bowline?
I like to compare the results with the results of Murlle's tests, as
Dan suggests.
In Murlle's tests the twin bowline apears to be a strong bend (to my
surprise), that can be untied easily.

I wonder what "parted" means. Do you mean that the hunter's bend
slipped? (I expect that the cord breaks just outside the knot. I do
not expect the knot to capsize, slip or fall apart)

I like this trick of changing interlocked overhand knots into
interlocked figure of eigt knots.
It is possible with other knots too.
The way the rigger's bend turns into the figure of four knot (as Roo
explained),
seems to work well with ABOK 1408 (well, I hope that is the one I
knotted here; sorry I cannot check the reference since I do not own
the book).
It can be done with the bulldogbend (ABOK 1425).
It does not work with the Zeppelin bend.

My thoughts for knotting,

Ben

Roo wrote:
... SNIP ... I tie a
rigger's bend first, back the ends out from the center "eye", wrap
them around the standing parts, and then re-insert them in the center
"eye" but in the opposite manner from the original rigger's bend.


OJ wrote:
In one sense it is based on the rigger's bend. Instead of interlocked
overhand knots it uses interlocked figure eight knots.

Roo previously wrote:
It's somewhat similar to the Long Ashley bend being a modification of
the Ashley bend. http://www.geocities.com/roo_two/longashley.html

Just an observation: The Ashley Bend can be seen as interlaced
overhand knots just as the Rigger's (Hunter's) Bend can be seen as
interlaced overhand knots. Withdrawing the ends of the Rigger's Bend
and re-inserted them (as Roo wrote) transforms interlaced overhand
knots into interlaced Figure-of-Eight Knots (as OJ wrote). That
changes the Rigger's Bend into the Figure Four Bend.

Just like the Rigger's Bend, the ends of the Ashley Bend can be
withdrawn and re-inserted to form interlaced Figure-of-Eight knots.
This transforms the Ashley Bend from interlaced overhand knots into a
"modified Ashley Bend" with interlaced Figure-of-Eight knots.

From this point of view, the Long Ashley Bend can be seen as
interlaced double overhand knots. That is, the Ashley Bend is
transformed from interlaced overhand knots into the Long Ashley Bend
with interlaced double overhand knots.
Just a thought.

OJ: I find your post and the Figure Four Bend very interesting. In
your original post, when you say the knot "parted", do you mean the
rope breaks or that the rope slips and the knot comes undone? I am
trying to understand (mea culpa) whether your conclusion from your
tests is that the Figure Four Bend has a higher breaking strength than
the Rigger's Bend or if the Figure Four Bend is more secure than the
Rigger's Bend. Or, for that matter, both.

Thanks in advance - Brian.