WARNING about doing business with a certain company in China...

This is not off-topic, as it relates specifically to gemstone beads.
Some of you may already be familiar with this story, but it was new to
me, so I want to share it here, and urge anyone who has the time to drop
a line to this company to let them know how you feel about the way they
choose to conduct business.

This is the story as I know it; Debby Gwaltney, a Wetcanvas member,
placed an order with a company in China for a large amount of gemstone
beads... almost $1000 worth. That's a LOT for her, as it would be for
most individuals and small businesses! The order never came, and the
company simply IGNORED her initial complaints. She attempted to recall
her money order, but without success. Eventually, the company did
respond, by saying they were tracking the package, but of course by then
it was too late to recall the money order and there was STILL no offer
of a refund! A number of letters have been sent on this poor lady's
behalf, and the company has now said that they will issue a refund, but
that they can't issue it directly in US funds so she must find an agent
in China to go through! Right.

Anyway, I am writing them a letter (snail mail - it may have more impact
than e-mail) and letting them know what I think of their business
practices, and that not only will I not do business with them, they have
also deterred me from doing business with ANY company in China. I have
permission from Debby to post her message to me here, and she has also
given me the company's contact info, which I am posting at the end of
this message for anyone interested in writing on her behalf.

Here's her message to me:


"Hi Kalera!

Thank you so much for offering to send an email to this company that
stole my money. Here are the particulars:

Wire transfer was sent 1/14/04 for $960.00 via Bank of the Ozarks for
shipment of semi-precious gemstone beads. The money was held up at the
recipient's bank, but they finally received it around the middle of
February, which the company did confirm, and emailed me stating that the
order was shipped on Feburary 20.

Several weeks later, I still had not received the goods, and replies
stated only that they were tracking the parcel with their post office. I
had received numerous emails for about two months just saying that the
parcel was being tracked, with no other information provided. I finally
received the claim form they filled out since the parcel was lost, and
signed and returned it, that was about a month ago now.

Now I just want my money back, and they're telling me I have to have
someone in China do that for me, which sounds like a load of crap.

(-snip personal info-)

Thank you! Your help is GREATLY appreciated!!!
__________________
Debby"

Now here's the contact info for the company:

CIYI Electronics Co., LTD.
No. 14 Quaodong Rd.
Shouchang Town
Jiande, Zhejiang
P. R. of China 311612


http://www.ciyiproduct.com

I feel very strongly that the beading community needs to be warned about
this company, and about doing business overseas in general. There seems
to be very little that can be done about a company that simply keeps
your money and sends no goods, if they don't happen to be in the same
country as you are. Choose your vendors with exceeding caution! I know I
will, after reading her whole story (on WC, if you want to look:
http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=186778 )

--
-Kalera
http://www.beadwife.com
http://www.snipurl.com/kebay

I have delt with this company. But I have not ordered. The name is a
little different, but here is another email address that might help. I am
pretty sure it is the same people.



I am so glad to get this info. I am sticking to mainly US run business for
most of my supplies right now for this very reason.

I wish her best of luck getting her money back. I know about needing the
money, but she can write it off her taxes as a business loss.

-Amy
http://www.empressbeads.com

"Kalera Stratton" wrote in message
...
This is not off-topic, as it relates specifically to gemstone beads.
Some of you may already be familiar with this story, but it was new to
me, so I want to share it here, and urge anyone who has the time to drop
a line to this company to let them know how you feel about the way they
choose to conduct business.

This is the story as I know it; Debby Gwaltney, a Wetcanvas member,
placed an order with a company in China for a large amount of gemstone
beads... almost $1000 worth. That's a LOT for her, as it would be for
most individuals and small businesses! The order never came, and the
company simply IGNORED her initial complaints. She attempted to recall
her money order, but without success. Eventually, the company did
respond, by saying they were tracking the package, but of course by then
it was too late to recall the money order and there was STILL no offer
of a refund! A number of letters have been sent on this poor lady's
behalf, and the company has now said that they will issue a refund, but
that they can't issue it directly in US funds so she must find an agent
in China to go through! Right.

Anyway, I am writing them a letter (snail mail - it may have more impact
than e-mail) and letting them know what I think of their business
practices, and that not only will I not do business with them, they have
also deterred me from doing business with ANY company in China. I have
permission from Debby to post her message to me here, and she has also
given me the company's contact info, which I am posting at the end of
this message for anyone interested in writing on her behalf.

Here's her message to me:


"Hi Kalera!

Thank you so much for offering to send an email to this company that
stole my money. Here are the particulars:

Wire transfer was sent 1/14/04 for $960.00 via Bank of the Ozarks for
shipment of semi-precious gemstone beads. The money was held up at the
recipient's bank, but they finally received it around the middle of
February, which the company did confirm, and emailed me stating that the
order was shipped on Feburary 20.

Several weeks later, I still had not received the goods, and replies
stated only that they were tracking the parcel with their post office. I
had received numerous emails for about two months just saying that the
parcel was being tracked, with no other information provided. I finally
received the claim form they filled out since the parcel was lost, and
signed and returned it, that was about a month ago now.

Now I just want my money back, and they're telling me I have to have
someone in China do that for me, which sounds like a load of crap.

(-snip personal info-)

Thank you! Your help is GREATLY appreciated!!!
__________________
Debby"

Now here's the contact info for the company:

CIYI Electronics Co., LTD.
No. 14 Quaodong Rd.
Shouchang Town
Jiande, Zhejiang
P. R. of China 311612


http://www.ciyiproduct.com

I feel very strongly that the beading community needs to be warned about
this company, and about doing business overseas in general. There seems
to be very little that can be done about a company that simply keeps
your money and sends no goods, if they don't happen to be in the same
country as you are. Choose your vendors with exceeding caution! I know I
will, after reading her whole story (on WC, if you want to look:
http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=186778 )

--
-Kalera
http://www.beadwife.com
http://www.snipurl.com/kebay

I feel very strongly that the beading community needs to be warned about
this company, and about doing business overseas in general.

Um, how to word this so that I don't come off sounding unsympathetic?
I do feel very sorry for Debby that she encountered such a bad transaction.
However, there is a reason behind the meaning "Being Shanghai'd".

Most bead vendors and importers already know that doing any business in China
is a risk. There are no government or International laws protecting US
citizens from being ripped off by Chinese companies doing business from China.
And the few rules or regulations that have been set in place are ignored.
What happened to Debby happens all the time. It is part of the risk.
Knowing the company you are doing business with in advance is the only way to
conduct business with China.

While I understand the feeling that some people have in needing to try to get
the best prices they can by bypassing the vendors and importers here in the US,
this is just one example of why it is not always a good idea.
The experience that a seasoned importer has is more than worth the few extra
pennies per bead you might need to pay, as opposed to trying to get the best
deal.

There are reasons why there are manufacturers, importers/wholesalers, and
retailers. Or in other terms, the middleman, or woman as the case may be.
Part of that is because that is how the US functions. People make their living
by selling products to others. The more those people are "cut" out of the
picture, the less stable the economy will become.
The advantage to having the middleman is that all the research, legwork, risk
and capitol are a liability that the end consumer does not have to bear.

I have watched over the past 5 or 6 years, as the Internet has grown and the
planet has become smaller. Access to products have appeared to become easier
when in fact they are not. Just knowing how to contact an overseas company
does not mean they are reputable. And I am not just talking about China. I am
also not just talking about not getting your goods at all. Many times you will
receive your product, but do you "really" know what you got?
I have also watched as smaller businesses have gone under because people are so
intent on the impression that they will be "saving" money by skipping by their
local sources.

Attempting to directly import, utilizing Bulk Buys so that you are undercutting
your LBS or using companies that will sell to anyone who has a tax exempt
number at the same price they sell to their beadstores, will only eventually
flood the bead industry and put your local sources out of business.

Those same local sources are the people who have taken the time to educate,
offer the products that are in demand, make them easily accessible in smaller
quantities, and support you while you learn to create.
Undercutting them is good in what way? Passing them by and going directly to
their source helps who?

Consider the repercussions.

Beki
http://www.whimbeads.com

Consider the repercussions.

Well said, Beki, every single word of your entire post!!!!

KarenK

Very well said, Beki. This is pretty much how I felt, too....there are reasons
one doesn't buy beads from a company called "XYZ Electronics" -- sounds
undependable at best. Not only that, but buying from the source that sells
things cheapest is one of the reasons greedy Walmart is taking over the world,
and mom-and-pops are vanishing. Saving a few pennies without giving it some
thought can be cutting off your nose to spite your face.

Um, how to word this so that I don't come off sounding unsympathetic?
I do feel very sorry for Debby that she encountered such a bad transaction.
However, there is a reason behind the meaning "Being Shanghai'd".

Most bead vendors and importers already know that doing any business in China
is a risk. There are no government or International laws protecting US
citizens from being ripped off by Chinese companies doing business from China.
And the few rules or regulations that have been set in place are ignored.
What happened to Debby happens all the time. It is part of the risk.
Knowing the company you are doing business with in advance is the only way to
conduct business with China.

While I understand the feeling that some people have in needing to try to get
the best prices they can by bypassing the vendors and importers here in the
US,
this is just one example of why it is not always a good idea.
The experience that a seasoned importer has is more than worth the few extra
pennies per bead you might need to pay, as opposed to trying to get the best
deal.

There are reasons why there are manufacturers, importers/wholesalers, and
retailers. Or in other terms, the middleman, or woman as the case may be.
Part of that is because that is how the US functions. People make their
living
by selling products to others. The more those people are "cut" out of the
picture, the less stable the economy will become.
The advantage to having the middleman is that all the research, legwork, risk
and capitol are a liability that the end consumer does not have to bear.

I have watched over the past 5 or 6 years, as the Internet has grown and the
planet has become smaller. Access to products have appeared to become easier
when in fact they are not. Just knowing how to contact an overseas company
does not mean they are reputable. And I am not just talking about China. I
am
also not just talking about not getting your goods at all. Many times you
will
receive your product, but do you "really" know what you got?
I have also watched as smaller businesses have gone under because people are
so
intent on the impression that they will be "saving" money by skipping by
their local sources.

Attempting to directly import, utilizing Bulk Buys so that you are
undercutting
your LBS or using companies that will sell to anyone who has a tax exempt
number at the same price they sell to their beadstores, will only eventually
flood the bead industry and put your local sources out of business.

Those same local sources are the people who have taken the time to educate,
offer the products that are in demand, make them easily accessible in smaller
quantities, and support you while you learn to create.
Undercutting them is good in what way? Passing them by and going directly to
their source helps who?

Consider the repercussions.

Beki
http://www.whimbeads.com


~~
Sooz
-------
"Those in the cheaper seats clap. The rest of you rattle your jewelry." John
Lennon (1940 - 1980) Royal Varieties Performance
~ Dr. Sooz's Bead Links
http://airandearth.netfirms.com/soozlinkslist.html

OMG!! Thanks for the info and the warning, Kalera. I hope Debby recovers
her money.

--
Kandice Seeber
Air & Earth Designs
http://www.lampwork.net

Yep - I agree with all of this. However, I think we do need to remember
that even though a lot of us would have exercised caution and such, and even
though this type of thing happens all the time - **that doesn't make it any
less wrong**. And we have no idea what we really would have done in Debby's
shoes. Greed might not have been her motive for buying from this company.
We don't know.
I mean, we all like a good deal, right?
Hindsight is 20/20 and all that.
Not everyone is as internet and business saavy as the next person. Take the
Nigerian scams. I know all about them and I laugh at the ridiculousness (is
that even a word??) of every scamming email I get. However, not everyone
knows about them. Hell, my husband had no idea about the Nigerian scams.
No clue!! And he is an intelligent, responsible, professional person.
Just lending a different perspective.

--
Kandice Seeber
Air & Earth Designs
http://www.lampwork.net

Very well said, Beki. This is pretty much how I felt, too....there are
reasons
one doesn't buy beads from a company called "XYZ Electronics" -- sounds
undependable at best. Not only that, but buying from the source that
sells
things cheapest is one of the reasons greedy Walmart is taking over the
world,
and mom-and-pops are vanishing. Saving a few pennies without giving it
some
thought can be cutting off your nose to spite your face.

Um, how to word this so that I don't come off sounding unsympathetic?
I do feel very sorry for Debby that she encountered such a bad
transaction.
However, there is a reason behind the meaning "Being Shanghai'd".

Most bead vendors and importers already know that doing any business in
China
is a risk. There are no government or International laws protecting US
citizens from being ripped off by Chinese companies doing business from
China.
And the few rules or regulations that have been set in place are ignored.
What happened to Debby happens all the time. It is part of the risk.
Knowing the company you are doing business with in advance is the only
way to
conduct business with China.

While I understand the feeling that some people have in needing to try to
get
the best prices they can by bypassing the vendors and importers here in
the
US,
this is just one example of why it is not always a good idea.
The experience that a seasoned importer has is more than worth the few
extra
pennies per bead you might need to pay, as opposed to trying to get the
best
deal.

There are reasons why there are manufacturers, importers/wholesalers, and
retailers. Or in other terms, the middleman, or woman as the case may
be.
Part of that is because that is how the US functions. People make their
living
by selling products to others. The more those people are "cut" out of
the
picture, the less stable the economy will become.
The advantage to having the middleman is that all the research, legwork,
risk
and capitol are a liability that the end consumer does not have to bear.

I have watched over the past 5 or 6 years, as the Internet has grown and
the
planet has become smaller. Access to products have appeared to become
easier
when in fact they are not. Just knowing how to contact an overseas
company
does not mean they are reputable. And I am not just talking about China.
I
am
also not just talking about not getting your goods at all. Many times
you
will
receive your product, but do you "really" know what you got?
I have also watched as smaller businesses have gone under because people
are
so
intent on the impression that they will be "saving" money by skipping by
their local sources.

Attempting to directly import, utilizing Bulk Buys so that you are
undercutting
your LBS or using companies that will sell to anyone who has a tax exempt
number at the same price they sell to their beadstores, will only
eventually
flood the bead industry and put your local sources out of business.

Those same local sources are the people who have taken the time to
educate,
offer the products that are in demand, make them easily accessible in
smaller
quantities, and support you while you learn to create.
Undercutting them is good in what way? Passing them by and going
directly to
their source helps who?

Consider the repercussions.

Beki
http://www.whimbeads.com


~~
Sooz
-------
"Those in the cheaper seats clap. The rest of you rattle your jewelry."
John
Lennon (1940 - 1980) Royal Varieties Performance
~ Dr. Sooz's Bead Links
http://airandearth.netfirms.com/soozlinkslist.html

**that doesn't make it any
less wrong**.

You are right, Kandice. And I certainly hope I didn't imply that I thought it
was okay.

Greed might not have been her motive for buying from this company.

You are correct about this too, and I just made an assumption about this.

I think it may be because I have started to become bitter about all the
complaints I hear from my customers, colleagues, and just posts on the Net
regarding people being ripped off or lied to about the beads they are
purchasing.

It started several years back with the Bali/India bead thing and people not
having a clue what they were really buying. And this is one area that is still
muddy.
Then it moved to crystal beads, and now it is stones. Luckily it only took
about 6 months before the general beading population learned that Cherry Quartz
was not some new find in the ground. =o/

The beading industry is my life and has been for the majority of my life. I
hate to see people abuse it.

Beki
http://www.whimbeads.com

I've honed my list of suppliers ruthlessly, and really only buy from a few
trusted sources.

Kathy, would you please email me? Thank you....
:-)
~~
Sooz
-------
"Those in the cheaper seats clap. The rest of you rattle your jewelry." John
Lennon (1940 - 1980) Royal Varieties Performance
~ Dr. Sooz's Bead Links
http://airandearth.netfirms.com/soozlinkslist.html

There may be a few items where I pay more than absolutely necessary for my
beads. I don't care. It's not worth it to me to wait six months for a bulk
buy of stones, crystal, bali or anything else. I can get wonderful Bali from
Nicole at a competitive price

Me too. I enjoy buying from small businesses for many reasons -- having once
been one, I especially feel it's my duty to support them. I *so* understand
what they go through.

Aside: I look at all turquoise with a jaded eye. I've seen so much crap out
there that I don't even want to buy it any more.

Yes, me too. I never buy turquoise from anyone except a TRUSTED source. It's
too easy to fake that stone in particular. Notorious!

And black stones with a
teeny blue streak doesn't say "turquoise" to me at all.

Though blue stones with black streaks make me happy. I was a hippie and veined
turquoise makes me remember a more carefree day when things weren't as
complicated (or painful!) as they are now (in my life, that is). It does
something to me, personally, so I do buy that stuff and wear it, knowing full
well it's not the best I could buy and use.

Your knowledge and honesty are the main reasons I have you on my "short
list." You do a terrific job, kiddo.

Absolutely! That's why Beki's biz is called "highly recommended" on the Links
List -- a notation saved for very, very, VERY few.
Out on a Whim is Beki's store, for those of you who don't know:
http://www.whimbeads.com/
~~
Sooz
-------
"Those in the cheaper seats clap. The rest of you rattle your jewelry." John
Lennon (1940 - 1980) Royal Varieties Performance
~ Dr. Sooz's Bead Links
http://airandearth.netfirms.com/soozlinkslist.html