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Traditional Dutch Fishermen's Sweaters



 
 
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  #1  
Old July 8th 07, 12:16 AM posted to rec.crafts.textiles.yarn
Vintage Purls
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Posts: 294
Default Traditional Dutch Fishermen's Sweaters

Those of you who enjoy the history of fishermen's sweaters may be
interested in a book I recently acquired: "Knitting from the
Netherlands" by Henriette van der Klift-Tellegen. I've put a little
"book review" of sorts on my site if you are inerested:
http://vintagepurls.net.nz/2007/07/0...e-netherlands/

I suspect it's not easy to come across (mine is second hand) but if
this is your sort of thing it's probably something to keep an eye out
for.

VP

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  #2  
Old July 8th 07, 04:05 AM posted to rec.crafts.textiles.yarn
Mirjam Bruck-Cohen
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Posts: 1,592
Default Traditional Dutch Fishermen's Sweaters

In the many years that i was lucky to recieve `Ariadne` , published by
my Great Uncle Elias Cohen . I read many articles about Dutch Knitting
as well as Dutch embroidery.
They were like their Neighbours over the Channel always a sea
traveling nation ,,, with all the NEEDED clothing items.
mirjam

Those of you who enjoy the history of fishermen's sweaters may be
interested in a book I recently acquired: "Knitting from the
Netherlands" by Henriette van der Klift-Tellegen. I've put a little
"book review" of sorts on my site if you are inerested:
http://vintagepurls.net.nz/2007/07/0...e-netherlands/

I suspect it's not easy to come across (mine is second hand) but if
this is your sort of thing it's probably something to keep an eye out
for.

VP


  #3  
Old July 11th 07, 01:41 AM posted to rec.crafts.textiles.yarn
Aaron Lewis
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 65
Default Traditional Dutch Fishermen's Sweaters

Has anybody ever hear of "fisherman's sweaters" that were knit large, and
felted to size? I know of traditions of socks that were felted; and,
traditions of mittens that were felted and worn wet, but whole sweaters that
were knit large and felted?

The fellow who proposed this was a curator at a museum. The museum does not
have any examples, and when I look at photos of fishermen from the same
period that sailed out of a port only 100 miles from the subject port, I do
not see ANY evidence of felting. Knitters and knitting shop owners in the
area do not seem to be aware of such a tradition, but such traditions die
fast.

TIA

Aaron


"Vintage Purls" wrote in message
ups.com...
Those of you who enjoy the history of fishermen's sweaters may be
interested in a book I recently acquired: "Knitting from the
Netherlands" by Henriette van der Klift-Tellegen. I've put a little
"book review" of sorts on my site if you are inerested:
http://vintagepurls.net.nz/2007/07/0...e-netherlands/

I suspect it's not easy to come across (mine is second hand) but if
this is your sort of thing it's probably something to keep an eye out
for.

VP




  #4  
Old July 11th 07, 04:33 AM posted to rec.crafts.textiles.yarn
Mirjam Bruck-Cohen
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,592
Default Traditional Dutch Fishermen's Sweaters

Why am i NOT surprised that a fellow proposed it ,,,,, ?
reaoning of life ways,,,, would be that some woolen items [sweaters
socks etc,,,,,, were `felted` by the many years of use and washing
,,,, i don`t think any 'Dutch Person" knitttig will on purpose knit
Bigger than needed, when materials were scarce ,,,,,
mirjam
wrote:

Has anybody ever hear of "fisherman's sweaters" that were knit large, and
felted to size? I know of traditions of socks that were felted; and,
traditions of mittens that were felted and worn wet, but whole sweaters that
were knit large and felted?

The fellow who proposed this was a curator at a museum. The museum does not
have any examples, and when I look at photos of fishermen from the same
period that sailed out of a port only 100 miles from the subject port, I do
not see ANY evidence of felting. Knitters and knitting shop owners in the
area do not seem to be aware of such a tradition, but such traditions die
fast.

TIA

Aaron


"Vintage Purls" wrote in message
oups.com...
Those of you who enjoy the history of fishermen's sweaters may be
interested in a book I recently acquired: "Knitting from the
Netherlands" by Henriette van der Klift-Tellegen. I've put a little
"book review" of sorts on my site if you are inerested:
http://vintagepurls.net.nz/2007/07/0...e-netherlands/

I suspect it's not easy to come across (mine is second hand) but if
this is your sort of thing it's probably something to keep an eye out
for.

VP





  #5  
Old July 11th 07, 07:00 AM posted to rec.crafts.textiles.yarn
Vintage Purls
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 294
Default Traditional Dutch Fishermen's Sweaters

On Jul 11, 12:41 pm, "Aaron Lewis" wrote:
Has anybody ever hear of "fisherman's sweaters" that were knit large, and
felted to size?


van der Klift-Tellegen claims that fishermen from Bunschoten and
Spakenburg:
"owned two kinds of sweaters: a heavy one to wear at sea and a thinner
one for onshore wear: the Sunday sweater. The sea sweaters were
"felted," treated in a special way to make them wind-and-water-proof.
An oversized sweater was knit with heavy sajet, a sweater at least
twice the desired size. The sweater was then submerged in a tub of hot
water and rubbed and punched until it shrank to half its original
size. The result was a piece of clothing heavy as lead, water and
windproof." (pages 39-40)

A photo on page 36 shows a man whose sweater "strongly resembles
felt".

I also note that she claims that sea sweaters were never worn on shore
and may of the photos in her book show men posing for a professional
photographer - clearly you wouldn't pose for a photo in your sea
sweater but rather your sunday best. Maybe little photographic
evidence exists for this reason.

VP

  #6  
Old July 11th 07, 07:34 PM posted to rec.crafts.textiles.yarn
Aaron Lewis
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 65
Default Traditional Dutch Fishermen's Sweaters

Many people that see my gansey have to be convinced that it is not felted.
They just assume that anything that tight MUST have been felted.

Much of a seaman's / fisherman's duties involved heavy labor with the arms -
rowing, hauling, furling sails.... One virtue of knitting is that it can
accommodate motion. I wonder if felted material could accommodate the
motion? I feel an experiment coming on!

Aaron
"Vintage Purls" wrote in message
ups.com...
On Jul 11, 12:41 pm, "Aaron Lewis" wrote:
Has anybody ever hear of "fisherman's sweaters" that were knit large,
and
felted to size?


van der Klift-Tellegen claims that fishermen from Bunschoten and
Spakenburg:
"owned two kinds of sweaters: a heavy one to wear at sea and a thinner
one for onshore wear: the Sunday sweater. The sea sweaters were
"felted," treated in a special way to make them wind-and-water-proof.
An oversized sweater was knit with heavy sajet, a sweater at least
twice the desired size. The sweater was then submerged in a tub of hot
water and rubbed and punched until it shrank to half its original
size. The result was a piece of clothing heavy as lead, water and
windproof." (pages 39-40)

A photo on page 36 shows a man whose sweater "strongly resembles
felt".

I also note that she claims that sea sweaters were never worn on shore
and may of the photos in her book show men posing for a professional
photographer - clearly you wouldn't pose for a photo in your sea
sweater but rather your sunday best. Maybe little photographic
evidence exists for this reason.

VP



  #7  
Old July 11th 07, 07:42 PM posted to rec.crafts.textiles.yarn
Cece
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 48
Default Traditional Dutch Fishermen's Sweaters

On Jul 11, 1:00 am, Vintage Purls wrote:
On Jul 11, 12:41 pm, "Aaron Lewis" wrote:

Has anybody ever hear of "fisherman's sweaters" that were knit large, and
felted to size?


van der Klift-Tellegen claims that fishermen from Bunschoten and
Spakenburg:
"owned two kinds of sweaters: a heavy one to wear at sea and a thinner
one for onshore wear: the Sunday sweater. The sea sweaters were
"felted," treated in a special way to make them wind-and-water-proof.
An oversized sweater was knit with heavy sajet, a sweater at least
twice the desired size. The sweater was then submerged in a tub of hot
water and rubbed and punched until it shrank to half its original
size. The result was a piece of clothing heavy as lead, water and
windproof." (pages 39-40)

A photo on page 36 shows a man whose sweater "strongly resembles
felt".

I also note that she claims that sea sweaters were never worn on shore
and may of the photos in her book show men posing for a professional
photographer - clearly you wouldn't pose for a photo in your sea
sweater but rather your sunday best. Maybe little photographic
evidence exists for this reason.

VP


However, I have found that historians, especially of the male
persuasion, truly have no idea what women did when making clothing.
Technology historians have come up with, and printed in their
scholarly books, some really bad howlers. Like the one who thinks
that, on a hand-loom, the shuttle traveled in front of the reed and
beater. Like the many who have stated that cloth more than 30 inches
wide required two weavers. Like the one who says that hats from
Urumchi are proven to be knitted because they are made of short
lengths of yarn. Like the many who believe that Arans, which of
course have been made for centuries, were identifiable because the
stitch patterns went by county or village.

Elizabeth Wayland Barber, among others, has stated that women's work
of past centuries was not documented. As a result, the male historian
is at a disadvantage when he stares at a machine, or even the product,
to determine exactly what was done. Heaven forfend that he should ask
an expert, even a man currently in the textile business!

Cece

  #8  
Old July 11th 07, 08:16 PM posted to rec.crafts.textiles.yarn
Aaron Lewis
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 65
Default Traditional Dutch Fishermen's Sweaters

Think of a fisherman's gansey as a capital investment in survival gear to
keep a worker alive while he works a high risk - high profit job in an
extreme environment. The amount that they were willing to invest depended
on their valuation of the worker's life.

A certain amount of wool was needed to keep a fisherman warm. It could be
knit small and tight, or it could be knit large and felted small. The amount
of wool would be the same, all that changes is the manner of fabrication.

If the only job your husband and son could get was fishing, how much effort
would you put into providing them with garments that were warm enough to
keep them alive? Their shares from fishing might be most of the family's
income. If they freeze in their fishing dory, the family at home gets
nothing. Then, how much effort does a wife and mother then put into the
knitting that keeps her men alive? against a man's life, and years of
income, a few ounces of wool and a few extra hours of knitting effort (or
felting effort) are a worth while investment.

Aaron



"Mirjam Bruck-Cohen" wrote in message
...
Why am i NOT surprised that a fellow proposed it ,,,,, ?
reaoning of life ways,,,, would be that some woolen items [sweaters
socks etc,,,,,, were `felted` by the many years of use and washing
,,,, i don`t think any 'Dutch Person" knitttig will on purpose knit
Bigger than needed, when materials were scarce ,,,,,
mirjam
wrote:

Has anybody ever hear of "fisherman's sweaters" that were knit large, and
felted to size? I know of traditions of socks that were felted; and,
traditions of mittens that were felted and worn wet, but whole sweaters
that
were knit large and felted?

The fellow who proposed this was a curator at a museum. The museum does
not
have any examples, and when I look at photos of fishermen from the same
period that sailed out of a port only 100 miles from the subject port, I
do
not see ANY evidence of felting. Knitters and knitting shop owners in the
area do not seem to be aware of such a tradition, but such traditions die
fast.

TIA

Aaron


"Vintage Purls" wrote in message
roups.com...
Those of you who enjoy the history of fishermen's sweaters may be
interested in a book I recently acquired: "Knitting from the
Netherlands" by Henriette van der Klift-Tellegen. I've put a little
"book review" of sorts on my site if you are inerested:
http://vintagepurls.net.nz/2007/07/0...e-netherlands/

I suspect it's not easy to come across (mine is second hand) but if
this is your sort of thing it's probably something to keep an eye out
for.

VP







  #9  
Old July 11th 07, 08:52 PM posted to rec.crafts.textiles.yarn
Aaron Lewis
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 65
Default Traditional Dutch Fishermen's Sweaters

Good!

At Louisburg, they have 3/4 of a million pages of documentation that they
use for the details of the enactors lives. However, in that documentation
there is more about the lace made by a few ladies to show that they had
leisure time, than there is about all the knitting that kept the populace
warm. (That is a cold and windy place. I mean really windy! They lived in
drafty stone buildings. They wore wooden shoes. Do not try to tell me that
they did not knit a lot of socks and mittens. Sure there is no wool on the
ship's manifest, but there was a settlement around the corner that had an
abundance of sheep, and fishing boats went out of Louisburg every day? They
were French. Avoiding taxes is the French national hobby. They smuggled
wool. Smugglers do not send reports of their activates to the King.)

The time of the enactment was set in 1744. At that time, knitting sheaths
were common in France and Britain. ( Louisburg was French, but many of the
fishermen employed in the town had Scotch- Irish origins. But none of the
enactors that were knitting the day I was there had ever touched an actual
knitting sheath. Moreover, the artifact collection had never been reviewed
by competent knitters for evidence of knitting implements. Later this
summer, the collection of artifacts will be reviewed by the members of a
Nova Scotia knitters guild for additional evidence of knitting implements.
Given the fact that none of that guild's members actually use knitting
sheaths on a regular basis, I do not think that they are adequately
prepared to recognize all knitting implements.


Aaron


"Cece" wrote in message
oups.com...
On Jul 11, 1:00 am, Vintage Purls wrote:
On Jul 11, 12:41 pm, "Aaron Lewis" wrote:

Has anybody ever hear of "fisherman's sweaters" that were knit large,
and
felted to size?


van der Klift-Tellegen claims that fishermen from Bunschoten and
Spakenburg:
"owned two kinds of sweaters: a heavy one to wear at sea and a thinner
one for onshore wear: the Sunday sweater. The sea sweaters were
"felted," treated in a special way to make them wind-and-water-proof.
An oversized sweater was knit with heavy sajet, a sweater at least
twice the desired size. The sweater was then submerged in a tub of hot
water and rubbed and punched until it shrank to half its original
size. The result was a piece of clothing heavy as lead, water and
windproof." (pages 39-40)

A photo on page 36 shows a man whose sweater "strongly resembles
felt".

I also note that she claims that sea sweaters were never worn on shore
and may of the photos in her book show men posing for a professional
photographer - clearly you wouldn't pose for a photo in your sea
sweater but rather your sunday best. Maybe little photographic
evidence exists for this reason.

VP


However, I have found that historians, especially of the male
persuasion, truly have no idea what women did when making clothing.
Technology historians have come up with, and printed in their
scholarly books, some really bad howlers. Like the one who thinks
that, on a hand-loom, the shuttle traveled in front of the reed and
beater. Like the many who have stated that cloth more than 30 inches
wide required two weavers. Like the one who says that hats from
Urumchi are proven to be knitted because they are made of short
lengths of yarn. Like the many who believe that Arans, which of
course have been made for centuries, were identifiable because the
stitch patterns went by county or village.

Elizabeth Wayland Barber, among others, has stated that women's work
of past centuries was not documented. As a result, the male historian
is at a disadvantage when he stares at a machine, or even the product,
to determine exactly what was done. Heaven forfend that he should ask
an expert, even a man currently in the textile business!

Cece



  #10  
Old July 12th 07, 07:01 AM posted to rec.crafts.textiles.yarn
Vintage Purls
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 294
Default Traditional Dutch Fishermen's Sweaters

On Jul 12, 6:34 am, "Aaron Lewis" wrote:
Many people that see my gansey have to be convinced that it is not felted.
They just assume that anything that tight MUST have been felted.


The felted sweaters in "Knitting from the Netherlands" don't look
tight, they look felted. They look very thick and stiff. All of the
studio photos show men in fine "fishermen's sweaters" that would have
never seen a boat in their lives - these sweaters were for Sunday
best. No one would have worn their work jersey for a formal portrait.
The photos that show fishermen at work (of which there are many less
for obvious reasons) show men in grubby, thick, chunky jerseys.

van der Klift-Tellegen seems to have consulted local people in each
area and asked for their recollections and photos. Although this can't
be considered 100% reliable she does seem to avoid falling into the
trap of repeating "mainstream" history and clearly attempted to
discover the history herself from the practitioners (or their nearest
decendents).

VP

 




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