Soldering

Hello, I am trying to solder some silver wire, D shaped 8mm x 2mm (into a
bangle) and I am having problems.

Firstly the solder runs away from the top of the join leaving a gap,
secondly the heat is starting to damage the edge.

I have a few to do and the first is a reject (no real problem I will have
it) but I want to do a decent job.

"Test This!" wrote in message
...
Hello, I am trying to solder some silver wire, D shaped 8mm x 2mm (into a
bangle) and I am having problems.

Firstly the solder runs away from the top of the join leaving a gap,
secondly the heat is starting to damage the edge.

I had the same problem myself when I started making bangles.

I'll assume that you have prepared both edges you need soldered carefully
and that all is clean, fluxed and that you are using the correct silver
solder.

The edges of the 'D' shaped wire need to fit closely throughout the joint to
be soldered.
This is harder in a curved shape like a bangle because if the end of the
wire has been cut and or filed at a right angle, when you
bend the wire round in a curve the outside edge (the top of the joint)
doesn't quite come together. Solder will not fill this gap and will run
away.

1) I sometimes clamp the bangle in a vice with a small section of the wire
overlapping side by side and cut through the two sections of wire with a
saw.

2) You can also file the joints to the correct angle after bending them
round into the bangle shape.
i.e. bring both ends together then insert a thin file between the ends and
carefully file the ends to the same angle.

3) My favourite method is to file both ends square and bring them round in a
kind of squashed oval shape so the wire ends meet squarely. Push the ends
past each other, then pull them back carefully and let them click into place
by 'spring' action.

Place a small square of solder on a charcoal block (or whatever you use as a
soldering surface) place the bangle on the block so that the joint rest
exactly on the square of solder and flux it well.

Heat the whole bangle evenly not just the joint area with a large flame,
not to fierce and the solder will flow into the joint as soon as it becomes
fluid. Remove the heat immediately.

After pickling and drying tap the bangle into the correct shape on a bangle
triblet. (I always, if possible, make bangles about a size too small and
stretch them on the bangle triblet to the size I need. This gets you to the
exact size easily and work hardens the silver making it less likely to
deform in use.)

NB the better the fit of the joint the better the flow of the solder.

The edges were probably getting dammaged by you heating for too long trying
to fill the joint.

Try a few with some copper wire first until you have built some experience
and confidence.

I have a few to do and the first is a reject (no real problem I will have
it) but I want to do a decent job.




Best of luck - Kendall

hi test this.
Had a similar problem a while ago and its a real bugger. Have you
tried using steel/titanium binding wire on the silver wire itself ?
http://www.silverstall.com/soldering...jewellery.html

On Wed, 20 Jun 2007 16:10:51 +0000, Test This! wrote:

Hello, I am trying to solder some silver wire, D shaped 8mm x 2mm (into a
bangle) and I am having problems.

Firstly the solder runs away from the top of the join leaving a gap,
secondly the heat is starting to damage the edge.

http://www.ganoksin.com/borisat/nenam/consol.htm
http://www.ganoksin.com/borisat/nenam/solder-life.htm

On Wed, 20 Jun 2007 09:10:43 -0700, in rec.crafts.jewelry "Test This!"
wrote:

Hello, I am trying to solder some silver wire, D shaped 8mm x 2mm (into a
bangle) and I am having problems.

Firstly the solder runs away from the top of the join leaving a gap,
secondly the heat is starting to damage the edge.

I have a few to do and the first is a reject (no real problem I will have
it) but I want to do a decent job.


Most of the basics well covered by what others have already said, but a few
comments, just in case.

The more closely fit your joint, the less you'll get a gap. Solder, when it
melts, starts to diffuse into and slightly dissolve some of the parent metal of
the joint. With a tight joint and no excess solder, this isn't a problem. With
a loose joint however, you end up using more solder, and the degree to which
there is enough solder to dissolve some of the joint metal, increases. When
this happens, in effect, the joint gets even wider and less fitted than it was.
Sharp corners of the wire suffer the most, but it also will give you that
depression or gap all around the joint. To some degree, when this happens, you
can compensate by adding more solder to fill in the gap, and if you don't
overheat, this can work, but it's sloppy, and good craftsmanship in the first
place makes this sort of stop gap fix unnecessary.

Be sure that in addition to your joint being tightly fitted and clean, that
you've got good flux, AND that the solder itself is clean and bright. That will
help it flow easier and more quickly, helping you avoid overheating.

Use of a higher melting point solder, in contrast to intuition, will also make
some of these problems go away. Hard solder will have much less tendancy to
dissolve parent metal in the joint, than will easy, for example. And it flows
more easily in a nice tight joint once you get it to temperture. Be sure you're
heating the joint, not the solder itself. The solder should get much or most of
it's heating from the metal being joined. That avoids overheating/boiling the
solder before the joint is hot enough. Although it may seem that easy solder,
might be safer and easier to use than a medium or hard solder due to the lower
melting point, once you've got some practice controlling the heat to get both
sides of the joint, and with silver, often most of the piece itself, hot enough,
then you'll find that the higher melting point solders are in fact, easier to
use and give better results with less of that "etching" away of corners and
edges of the wire.

Bangles and other large hoops etc can be difficult to hold, since the sheer size
of the loop coupled with relatively small wire (relative to the diameter of the
loop) can mean that as you heat, sometimes simple annealing of the wire as you
heat up the joint can let the wire relax, letting the joint open up a bit. So
be sure you're soldering set up is such that the metal is supported in a way
that the joint stays closed. Binding wire is one method, and may be best for
you, but I'd probably try simpler methods first, Others are just in how you
support or hold the bangle. Gravity can work with you, or against you here. For
example, a bangle held vertically, seam at the top, just sitting on a flat
surface, as it heats, the joint will tend to open if the metal softens and the
sides relax or sag a trace. The same position (I'm assuming something like a
third hand holding it vertical, but sitting instead on two small blocks at 4
oclock and 8 oclock, will mean that the sides of the bangle, as the metal
relaxes and wants to move, will be pulled by gravity towards the middle, thus
helping the joint stay closed. Or use T-pins or "staples" to hold the bangle
down flat on a charcoal or soldering block, thus holding the joint closed
mechanically. Etc. Etc.

Peter

On Wed, 20 Jun 2007 16:10:51 +0000, Test This! wrote:

Firstly the solder runs away from the top of the join leaving a gap,
secondly the heat is starting to damage the edge.

http://www.handyharmancanada.com/The...Book/bbook.htm

On Thu, 21 Jun 2007 01:29:53 +0000, Peter W.. Rowe, wrote:
Hard solder will have much less tendancy to
dissolve parent metal in the joint, than will easy, for example. And it flows
more easily in a nice tight joint once you get it to temperture. Be sure you're
heating the joint, not the solder itself. The solder should get much or most of
it's heating from the metal being joined. That avoids overheating/boiling the
solder before the joint is hot enough. Although it may seem that easy solder,
might be safer and easier to use than a medium or hard solder due to the lower
melting point, once you've got some practice controlling the heat to get both
sides of the joint, and with silver, often most of the piece itself, hot enough,
then you'll find that the higher melting point solders are in fact, easier to
use and give better results with less of that "etching" away of corners and
edges of the wire.

Burning out zinc by overheating blows out pits like little erupting
volcanoes. You can overheat low melting silver solders more before the
parent metal collapses, and they have more zinc to burn out. You will see
pitting after using any solder -- if you do not remove heat after it flows.

On Wed, 20 Jun 2007 23:40:57 -0700, in rec.crafts.jewelry mbstevens
wrote:

On Thu, 21 Jun 2007 01:29:53 +0000, Peter W.. Rowe, wrote:
Hard solder will have much less tendancy to
dissolve parent metal in the joint, than will easy, for example. And it flows
more easily in a nice tight joint once you get it to temperture. Be sure you're
heating the joint, not the solder itself. The solder should get much or most of
it's heating from the metal being joined. That avoids overheating/boiling the
solder before the joint is hot enough. Although it may seem that easy solder,
might be safer and easier to use than a medium or hard solder due to the lower
melting point, once you've got some practice controlling the heat to get both
sides of the joint, and with silver, often most of the piece itself, hot enough,
then you'll find that the higher melting point solders are in fact, easier to
use and give better results with less of that "etching" away of corners and
edges of the wire.

Burning out zinc by overheating blows out pits like little erupting
volcanoes. You can overheat low melting silver solders more before the
parent metal collapses, and they have more zinc to burn out. You will see
pitting after using any solder -- if you do not remove heat after it flows.




True enough, of course. But the effect you're talking about requires heating
the solder rather more than what I'm talking about. You're actually overheating
the solder enough to burn off the zinc. I'm talking about what happens,
especially with more prolonged heating, if the temperature is any significant
amount over the flow point of the solder. This can be only a little bit over,
still well before you're burning off the zinc. And it's mostly a problem when
there is too much solder being used. Normally, with an appropriate amount of
solder, when it flows, the molten metal is raised above it's melting point. At
that temperature, it can dissolve a bit of the solid silver from the joint, and
still remain liquid, But if the amount of solder is correct, the amount of
silver dissolved into the liquid is small, stopped when the mix reaches
equalibrium for that temp, and at the same time, diffusion of the copper and
zinc into the parent metal also raises the melting point of the liquid pool. In
short, the liquid, even without lowering the temperature, will solidify as the
composition of the liquid pool is altered by removal of the copper and zinc, and
addition of silver. In a good well done joint, the drawing into of the molten
solder of joint silver is small enough to be hidden by the overall solder joint.
If, however, too much solder is used, such as in a poorly fitted joint, then it
will allow the molten solder to attack the joint metal substantially more,
altering the final look of the joint, often with an etched/depressed zone at the
joint. All this can happen well below the temperatures at which the zinc is
actually volatilized, and one can get this effect without seeing lots of
pinholes and pits in the solder. Of course, if you get the joint hot enough to
also get pitting and blowholes, well, so much the worse.

cheers

Peter

Thanks

I think I'll experiment with some steel wire I have around - looks like I
need my plumbers type blow lamp as well as the mini torch has difficulties
and the first one relaxed and spread a little as I ended up using a gas hob
for plenty of heat.!!!!