safe disposal of chemicals

Hi. I just bought a house in the woods. The garage is a separate
building, and I intend to set up a small metalworking shop to augment
my woodworking -- I just graduated from school where I fell in love
with metalsmithing while being a furniture major ... I especially love
making small vessels & objects. The main problem is that there's no
running water in the space, and no drainage pipes leading to my septic
tank.

The chemicals I use are silver, copper & nickel pickles, acid etching
chems, patinas, and sometimes photography chemicals.

Without spending a lot of $$, I figure I can set up a sink and feed it
with a gardening hose -- I can do this easily right outside the
garage's back door. But then I need to catch the runoff and dispose
of it somehow. I don't really want to introduce this stuff into my
septic tank, and feel uncomfortable with dumping it onto my hillside,
even if I were to build a greywater system. I suppose I can dispose
of it at the dump, but I'm lazy and would like to avoid that!!!

Of course the long term solution would be to get a separate septic
tank installed, or get a greywater sink that has a built-in filter,
but that's going to take me a while to afford.

Meanwhile, does anyone out there have similar circumstances? How do
you deal with it? Does anyone know for sure the relative toxicity of
the chems, and if neutralizing them with baking soda is enough to make
it safe for a greywater system? I read on a previous thread about a
woman who uses Spa Up (spa/pool chemical) instead of pickle -- is it
really safer? Does it work for all metals? As with my woodworking, I
want my metalworking to be as "green" as possible.

Any comments on this issue would be appreciated!
Thanks!
lisau

On , in ìð (lisau) wrote:


I don't really want to introduce this stuff into my
septic tank, and feel uncomfortable with dumping it onto my hillside

Some of these things are safe enough to dump on the ground if there's good
absorbtion, which is the same as putting it in the septic tank for most
purposes, with small amounts. One can dig a small pit, fill it back up with
crushed limestone, and pour DILUTED waste acids in there. The limestone will
neutralize it. This works fine for SMALL amounts, when you don't have
significant amounts of dissolved toxic metals. neither the copper or silver
that might be in there will be that much of a problem. nickel is more toxic.
And some of your other chemicals may be also not allowable in the ground as is.
You should check with local regulations as well, to find out what's recommended
in your area.. Much of the question revolves around the amount of chemical
you're needing to dispose of. Much of the time, you're not disposing of
chemical, just rinsing an item that's been in an acid cleaning bath, and it's
only the runoff you worry about. This can be helped a lot by using a seperate
small rinse tank of clear water, which is itself replenished with clean water as
evaporation etc requires, and this rinse water is also used to replenish
evaporation losses from the main containers. In this way, the amount of "drag
out" chemical that actually gets beyond that system into the waste water is
almost negligably small for the types of chemicals, in small amounts, that
you'll be using.

Of course the long term solution would be to get a separate septic
tank installed,

Again, whether this is a solution depends much on the individual chemicals.
remember that a septic system is not a toxic waste treatment facility.
Primarily, it's designed to dispose of biodegradable wastes, and little else.
Chemical disposal through a septic system simply spreads the chemical out in the
septic field, often little changed. Whether this has any effect or consequence
depends on the amount and type of the chemical. In some cases, it can kill the
biological activity of a septic system, with unpleasant results.


or get a greywater sink that has a built-in filter,
but that's going to take me a while to afford.


Another method of disposing of such things is to simply put it in an open wide
container with lots of surface area, protected as needed so children, pets, or
others don't get in, etc. Then just let the water content evaporate.
Accumulated dry waste chemical would need disposal at local facilities, but
would require it much less frequently.


Meanwhile, does anyone out there have similar circumstances? How do
you deal with it? Does anyone know for sure the relative toxicity of
the chems, and if neutralizing them with baking soda is enough to make
it safe for a greywater system?

Again, it depends on the chemical, and what you've dissolved in it. pickle as
used by jewelers to clean oxides from silver, gold, or copper alloys, is
generally fairly safe when dilute. Baking soda can neutralize it, as can the
aformentioned limestone filled pit, but neither does anything to dissolved
metallic contents, which may or may not present a problem, depending on which
metal and how much there is. Your photo chemicals may be more of a problem, as
can be some etching solutions.

I read on a previous thread about a
woman who uses Spa Up (spa/pool chemical) instead of pickle -- is it
really safer? Does it work for all metals?

Use "spa down", not spa up. What you're looking for is sodium bisulphate, which
is a sulphuric acid salt. It is safer than using an actual sulphuric acid
pickle. Note that buying this as the pool chemical is only a means to save
money. It's the same chemical as is sold by jewelry supply houses as normal
pickling chemical for silver, copper, or gold work. It has the advantage of
being lower priced as the pool chemical, as well as, oddly, being purer when
purchased in this form. Some of the brands (Sparex especially) of commercial
pickle are quite impure, and mess up your container more quickly.

As I said, this stuff is safer than Actual sulphuric acid, but it still can burn
holes in clothing, and fumes from the stuff when hot/boiling, in a closed
unventilated space, are not so good. Safer pickles, though considerably slower,
can be made with weaker acids. Citric acid, which can be purchased as a food
grade chemical, works reasonably well, especially with silver and gold work.
Less effective with the thicker oxides you get on copper, but it can still work,
if you're willing to give it more time to work. Citric acid is generally
considered to be pretty harmless in the dilute form you'll use it (just as it is
in food). Either citric acid or sodium bisulphate pickels can normally, when
diluted, go directly into a municipal waste water system. But you should check
to see what their effect would be on a septic system. Septic systems are, as i
said, a very different problem, since they are a living biological system, and
more is involved than simply the toxicity of the chemical.

Again, key to the answers are the quantities involved. Most of the chemicals
you're using are not frequently disposed of, for example, and most of the issue
is simple rinse water from pulling things out of the chemical and rinsing. You
can deal with that with the rinse tanks I suggested. For the rest, you really
need to check local regulations and requirements, as there are many variables
beyond just the chemicals themselves.

Peter

"lisau" wrote: (clip) I want my metalworking to be as "green" as possible.
Any comments on this issue would be appreciated! (clip)
^^^^^^^^^^
Where I used to work we sold a system which could help you. It consisted of
a metal 5-gal pail with a heater wrapped around the outside. It had a
close-fitting plastic cover with a small fan, blowing air across the
contents into a duct to the outside. You would empty your nasty water based
chemical solutions into the can and just wait for the heat/air flow to
reduce them to a dry concentrate. When the can got full, it went to a toxic
waste disposal service.
I don't know whether this lash-up is still on the market, but I don't think
it would be hard to build one, and a lot cheaper, at that.

"Peter W. Rowe" wrote in message
news
Safer pickles, though considerably slower,
can be made with weaker acids. Citric acid, which can be purchased as
a food grade chemical, works reasonably well, especially with silver
and gold work. Less effective with the thicker oxides you get on
copper, but it can still work, if you're willing to give it more time
to work.

I've had luck with the classic vinegar + salt solution. Even etches the
surface of the (brass/bronze/copper) and shows a crystalline appearance...
oh, castings BTW. All the worse though since you guys are just soldering,
I'm melting the whole thing. (Unless you're casting a ring or something
of course, but then agian, I don't do things as small.

Tim

--
"I've got more trophies than Wayne Gretsky and the Pope combined!"
- Homer Simpson
Website @ http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms

Can you clarify your water supply to your home? are you on mains as we
call it here in the UK or do you rely on a spring.?
If you rely on aspring etc how many gallons in 24 hrs do you think
you can draw? or are you using a well?
you need to look at your total water cycle if like me your possibly
completly independent for water. IE where yourwater comes from what the
flow gradientof the water might be and where it ends up.
Ive been a metal craftsman for some 36 years and at my present place
for 33. we arewholly independent here also out in the boon docks for all
our services so weve had to think very carefully how we treat out own
back yard. we have a septic tank too, but my chemical wastes are
minimal. Mostly sulfuric acid pickles containing copper and zinc
metallic salts. I dispose of say 2 to 3 gallons a year of this into a
chalk pit well downstream of any rainwater ditches or near my house.
below thepit is clay where the ground water is well below any
possibility of leaching into surface ditches .
My water supply comes from a spring up hill from the house and comes
from a sand water bearing aquifer overlaying clay. This water is
affected by the local acidheathland so is acidic in nature. In fact it
corrosive to the point that a galvanised tank will lose its zinc coating
in about 6 months. So all our plumbing has to be either pure copper or
stainless steel. 316 grade. Brass will dezincify in about 5 years.
leaving a brittle copper sponge.
Never had any infections or ailments in 33 years from the water. Its
also quite untreated except for filtration.
Peter has covered just about all you need to know. If in any doubt take
the waste to your local recycling /dump and ask the manager there what
they do with waste acids.
At out dump, some 6 miles away, all old car batteries go into a large
plastic skip so you could put your acid plastic containes into one of
those.

lisau wrote:
Hi. I just bought a house in the woods. The garage is a separate
building, and I intend to set up a small metalworking shop to augment
my woodworking -- I just graduated from school where I fell in love
with metalsmithing while being a furniture major ... I especially love
making small vessels & objects. The main problem is that there's no
running water in the space, and no drainage pipes leading to my septic
tank.

The chemicals I use are silver, copper & nickel pickles, acid etching
chems, patinas, and sometimes photography chemicals.

Without spending a lot of $$, I figure I can set up a sink and feed it
with a gardening hose -- I can do this easily right outside the
garage's back door. But then I need to catch the runoff and dispose
of it somehow. I don't really want to introduce this stuff into my
septic tank, and feel uncomfortable with dumping it onto my hillside,
even if I were to build a greywater system. I suppose I can dispose
of it at the dump, but I'm lazy and would like to avoid that!!!

Of course the long term solution would be to get a separate septic
tank installed, or get a greywater sink that has a built-in filter,
but that's going to take me a while to afford.

Meanwhile, does anyone out there have similar circumstances? How do
you deal with it? Does anyone know for sure the relative toxicity of
the chems, and if neutralizing them with baking soda is enough to make
it safe for a greywater system? I read on a previous thread about a
woman who uses Spa Up (spa/pool chemical) instead of pickle -- is it
really safer? Does it work for all metals? As with my woodworking, I
want my metalworking to be as "green" as possible.

Any comments on this issue would be appreciated!
Thanks!
lisau

Or you could build a wetland to take care of your problem.

http://technology.infomine.com/envir...ds/Welcome.htm

Shawn

"Peter W. Rowe" wrote in message
news
On , in ìð (lisau) wrote:


I don't really want to introduce this stuff into my
septic tank, and feel uncomfortable with dumping it onto my hillside

Some of these things are safe enough to dump on the ground if there's good
absorbtion, which is the same as putting it in the septic tank for most
purposes, with small amounts. One can dig a small pit, fill it back up
with
crushed limestone, and pour DILUTED waste acids in there. The limestone
will
neutralize it. This works fine for SMALL amounts, when you don't have
significant amounts of dissolved toxic metals. neither the copper or
silver
that might be in there will be that much of a problem. nickel is more
toxic.
And some of your other chemicals may be also not allowable in the ground
as is.
You should check with local regulations as well, to find out what's
recommended
in your area.. Much of the question revolves around the amount of
chemical
you're needing to dispose of. Much of the time, you're not disposing of
chemical, just rinsing an item that's been in an acid cleaning bath, and
it's
only the runoff you worry about. This can be helped a lot by using a
seperate
small rinse tank of clear water, which is itself replenished with clean
water as
evaporation etc requires, and this rinse water is also used to replenish
evaporation losses from the main containers. In this way, the amount of
"drag
out" chemical that actually gets beyond that system into the waste water
is
almost negligably small for the types of chemicals, in small amounts, that
you'll be using.

Of course the long term solution would be to get a separate septic
tank installed,

Again, whether this is a solution depends much on the individual
chemicals.
remember that a septic system is not a toxic waste treatment facility.
Primarily, it's designed to dispose of biodegradable wastes, and little
else.
Chemical disposal through a septic system simply spreads the chemical out
in the
septic field, often little changed. Whether this has any effect or
consequence
depends on the amount and type of the chemical. In some cases, it can
kill the
biological activity of a septic system, with unpleasant results.


or get a greywater sink that has a built-in filter,
but that's going to take me a while to afford.


Another method of disposing of such things is to simply put it in an open
wide
container with lots of surface area, protected as needed so children,
pets, or
others don't get in, etc. Then just let the water content evaporate.
Accumulated dry waste chemical would need disposal at local facilities,
but
would require it much less frequently.


Meanwhile, does anyone out there have similar circumstances? How do
you deal with it? Does anyone know for sure the relative toxicity of
the chems, and if neutralizing them with baking soda is enough to make
it safe for a greywater system?

Again, it depends on the chemical, and what you've dissolved in it.
pickle as
used by jewelers to clean oxides from silver, gold, or copper alloys, is
generally fairly safe when dilute. Baking soda can neutralize it, as can
the
aformentioned limestone filled pit, but neither does anything to dissolved
metallic contents, which may or may not present a problem, depending on
which
metal and how much there is. Your photo chemicals may be more of a
problem, as
can be some etching solutions.

I read on a previous thread about a
woman who uses Spa Up (spa/pool chemical) instead of pickle -- is it
really safer? Does it work for all metals?

Use "spa down", not spa up. What you're looking for is sodium bisulphate,
which
is a sulphuric acid salt. It is safer than using an actual sulphuric acid
pickle. Note that buying this as the pool chemical is only a means to
save
money. It's the same chemical as is sold by jewelry supply houses as
normal
pickling chemical for silver, copper, or gold work. It has the advantage
of
being lower priced as the pool chemical, as well as, oddly, being purer
when
purchased in this form. Some of the brands (Sparex especially) of
commercial
pickle are quite impure, and mess up your container more quickly.

As I said, this stuff is safer than Actual sulphuric acid, but it still
can burn
holes in clothing, and fumes from the stuff when hot/boiling, in a closed
unventilated space, are not so good. Safer pickles, though considerably
slower,
can be made with weaker acids. Citric acid, which can be purchased as a
food
grade chemical, works reasonably well, especially with silver and gold
work.
Less effective with the thicker oxides you get on copper, but it can still
work,
if you're willing to give it more time to work. Citric acid is generally
considered to be pretty harmless in the dilute form you'll use it (just as
it is
in food). Either citric acid or sodium bisulphate pickels can normally,
when
diluted, go directly into a municipal waste water system. But you should
check
to see what their effect would be on a septic system. Septic systems are,
as i
said, a very different problem, since they are a living biological system,
and
more is involved than simply the toxicity of the chemical.

Again, key to the answers are the quantities involved. Most of the
chemicals
you're using are not frequently disposed of, for example, and most of the
issue
is simple rinse water from pulling things out of the chemical and rinsing.
You
can deal with that with the rinse tanks I suggested. For the rest, you
really
need to check local regulations and requirements, as there are many
variables
beyond just the chemicals themselves.

Peter

"Leo Lichtman" wrote in message
...
Where I used to work we sold a system which could help you. It
consisted of a metal 5-gal pail with a heater wrapped around the
outside. It had a close-fitting plastic cover with a small fan,
blowing air across the contents into a duct to the outside.

ILLEGAL! :^) EPA calls this waste processing and you need all sorts of
licensing and crap... 'course, it's probably only so for commercial
enterprises.

Tim

--
"I've got more trophies than Wayne Gretsky and the Pope combined!"
- Homer Simpson
Website @ http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms

On Wed, 07 Jul 2004 01:38:29 GMT, (lisau) wrote:

||Hi. I just bought a house in the woods. The garage is a separate
||building, and I intend to set up a small metalworking shop to augment
||my woodworking -- I just graduated from school where I fell in love
||with metalsmithing while being a furniture major ... I especially love
||making small vessels & objects. The main problem is that there's no
||running water in the space, and no drainage pipes leading to my septic
||tank.
||Without spending a lot of $$, I figure I can set up a sink and feed it
||with a gardening ho
se -- I can do this easily right outside the
||garage's back door.

Look into rainwater catchment.
A standard gutter, leading to a tank, feeding the sink. Filters as needed.
Unless you are in a desert, you can get all the water you need from the sky, for
free. And for your uses, pure rainwater may be better, chemically.
Texas Parts Guy

Peter gave you good advise.
Do not dispose of pickle liquor or lubricants into your septic system or
greywater system. By any state's laws (dictated by EPA) these are
considered a hazardous waste and you can get in trouble that way. You could
also ruin your septic system and contaminate your soil. Rinse water does
not have the same concentrations and should not cause as much of a problem
if you were attached to a municipal system, but since you have a septic
system I would follow the advise and evaporate it. Most communities have
household hazardous waste disposal and recycling events (also dictated by
the EPA's new stormwater regulations) these would be ideal for any hobbyist
to use (as I do). The following link should help you find a nearby site:
http://www.earth911.org/ .
Liz


"lisau" wrote in message
...
Hi. I just bought a house in the woods. The garage is a separate
building, and I intend to set up a small metalworking shop to augment
my woodworking -- I just graduated from school where I fell in love
with metalsmithing while being a furniture major ... I especially love
making small vessels & objects. The main problem is that there's no
running water in the space, and no drainage pipes leading to my septic
tank.

The chemicals I use are silver, copper & nickel pickles, acid etching
chems, patinas, and sometimes photography chemicals.

Without spending a lot of $$, I figure I can set up a sink and feed it
with a gardening hose -- I can do this easily right outside the
garage's back door. But then I need to catch the runoff and dispose
of it somehow. I don't really want to introduce this stuff into my
septic tank, and feel uncomfortable with dumping it onto my hillside,
even if I were to build a greywater system. I suppose I can dispose
of it at the dump, but I'm lazy and would like to avoid that!!!

Of course the long term solution would be to get a separate septic
tank installed, or get a greywater sink that has a built-in filter,
but that's going to take me a while to afford.

Meanwhile, does anyone out there have similar circumstances? How do
you deal with it? Does anyone know for sure the relative toxicity of
the chems, and if neutralizing them with baking soda is enough to make
it safe for a greywater system? I read on a previous thread about a
woman who uses Spa Up (spa/pool chemical) instead of pickle -- is it
really safer? Does it work for all metals? As with my woodworking, I
want my metalworking to be as "green" as possible.

Any comments on this issue would be appreciated!
Thanks!
lisau

I don't think that neutralizing with baking soda is going to be of any
real help. Silver compounds kill bacteria. Copper sulphate is a
poison. And I think nickle is also one of the " bad " metals too. So
neutralizing the acid isn't going to help much if any.

Someone please step in here. I think Clorox will turn the silver into
silver chloride which if I remember correctly will precipatate and can
be filtered out probably with paper towels. Someone here will surely
correct me and come up with the best solution.

You really want to turn the metals into something you can filter out
and dispose of as a solid.

Dan



(lisau) wrote in message

The chemicals I use are silver, copper & nickel pickles, acid etching
chems, patinas, and sometimes photography chemicals.



Meanwhile, does anyone out there have similar circumstances? How do
you deal with it? Does anyone know for sure the relative toxicity of
the chems, and if neutralizing them with baking soda is enough to make
it safe for a greywater system? I read on a previous thread about a
woman who uses Spa Up (spa/pool chemical) instead of pickle -- is it
really safer? Does it work for all metals? As with my woodworking, I
want my metalworking to be as "green" as possible.

Any comments on this issue would be appreciated!
Thanks!
lisau