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Sparex pickle
I've just had a brainstorm that you good people may be able to help me with.
8D It occurred to me that since sparex turns into a copper plating solution when iron is added to it, that I could use that to give a coppery color to pieces of a knife, such as a stainless steel blade, bolsters and other parts. We're always on the lookout for new and different ways to embellish our work. Titanium anodizing looks good, so I'm wondering if I can get a copper finish this way without damaging the metal. I have a pickle pot for jewelry. Do you think that adding a copper bar to the pot might get enough copper into solution for this? Custom Made Knives and Jewelry by Don Robinson http://home.rgv.rr.com/donrob |
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#2
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On Fri, 13 Feb 2004 18:26:34 -0800, in rec.crafts.jewelry "Don Robinson"
wrote: I've just had a brainstorm that you good people may be able to help me with. 8D Watch out for those brainstorms... :-) It occurred to me that since sparex turns into a copper plating solution when iron is added to it, It doesn't. Long use of a sparex pickle dissolves copper oxides from the jewelry metals being pickled. If you then put a metal like silver or gold, which has a low degree of chemical reactivity, into the liquid while it is also in contact with a metal, like iron, with a higher degree of reactivity (actually, the property is called 'electronegativity", but thinking of it as reactivity may help), then you set up what amounts to a battery, or galvanic cell. the iron dissolves, and in doing this it becomes ionized. when this happens, other ions in the solution become UNionized, balanceing the electrical charges. The result is that copper, which is less reactive than iron, comes out of solution when the iron goes in, and it does it by plating out on the silver or gold. The iron does not make the solution a copper plating solution. What the iron does is supply the electical voltage needed to bring the copper back out of solution. that I could use that to give a coppery color to pieces of a knife, such as a stainless steel blade, bolsters and other parts. We're always on the lookout for new and different ways to embellish our work. Titanium anodizing looks good, so I'm wondering if I can get a copper finish this way without damaging the metal. Well, the trick to this question is the bit about damaging the metal. If the part is stainless, and resists the acid attack of the solution, then copper will not plate out unless you add a battery to the setup. if the iron is not stainless, (or some of the less resistant stainless alloys, such as many of the 440 type hardenable alloys you might be using), then it will plate out with copper, but will do it because some of the iron dissolves, forcing copper out. That continues till enough copper has deposited on the surface so no more iron can dissolve. But these types of copper deposit tend to be porous and poorly adherant to the metal, so it's not only a somewhat poor plating, but attack of the underylying metal can continue for some time. Whether this is useful depends on what you wish to do. The acid is well cleaning the steel while all this is going on, and the copper too is good and clean, so even a light scratch brush with something soft enough to burnish the copper instead of abrading it back off, such as a soft brass wire platers brush, could well give you a good usable copper deposit. Worth trying, at any rate. But skip the bit about adding copper to pickle. Think about pickle as just a sulphuric acid salt. With copper added in solution, it's copper sulphate solution. Acid copper plating baths are easy to make yourself. Just add crystaline copper sulphate (you can get this at the hardware store. Cheap. I think it's called blue vitriol or something, if not copper sulphate. Used to treat for algae and moss, etc. Then, if you wish, some baths will wish a bit of sulphuric acid added, so there's some excess free acid in the solution. Untracht, and several other books will have exact recipes. Now, people doing this intending a really good plate will likely get fancier, often adding brighteners to give the deposit a finer grain and surface levelling qualities, which translates to a bright shine, when it works right. The best of these are proprietary, but often things like a bit of molasses will move the soltuion at least partially in that direction. Use just a little and see what happens. And I'd suggest doing the plating with an actual battery, rather just as an immersion plate. you'll get a better deposit. Copper plates at very low voltages, but can use fairly high amps. 1.5 volts is quite enough, usually. if you add some things like bubblers or stirrers, good sediment filters, and use the commercial brighteners, you'd have a solution quite capable of doing substantial electroforming, as well as surface plating. If you wish a copper plate that does not etch the steel as it goes on, then you'd have to investigate pre-plate deposits, often nickle, to protect the iron from the acid. And some stainless won't plate well without a "strike" plate first with a surface activating bath. If memory serves (and I could be wrong here), I seem to recall these are based on phosphoric acid. The purpose is to remove the surface passivating layer from stainless (the formation of which is what makes it stainless, after all), since that oxide layer interferes with good plating adhesion. Do you think that adding a copper bar to the pot might get enough copper into solution for this? No. copper itself dissolves slowly in actual sulphuric acid, but only VERY slowly in sodium bisulphate pickle. copper OXIDE, on the other hand, dissolves handily. So you could repeatedly heat your copper bar till it's black, then pickle it, and repeat, to get copper into solution. But this would take time and effort. Go to the hardware store. A pound of copper sulphate crystals will cost just a few dollars, I think. And if you don't use them after all, they're a very pretty dark blue, so then you'd put them in a nice glass jar and put them on a shelf in the sun where they'd be more decorative than most of the chemicals in your life. And if you want REALLY decorative ones, dissolve the stuff in distilled or deionized water, put it in a jar with a loose cover, and let is slowly evaporate. The stuff forms really pretty crystals, and when freshly and crisply crystalized like that, instead of the broken up crystal chunks or powder you'll buy in the store, you'll have crystal clusters that will rival some nice gems. Being water soluable, of course, kinda limits their decorative use to sitting on the shelf, but what the hey. it's fun. peter |
#3
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Why not do it right? Make up a -*real*- Cu plating solution and
electroplate your parts in a _repeatable_ manner. -- Don Thompson "The only stupid questions are those that should have been asked, but weren't, or those that have been asked and answered over and over, but the answers not listened to." Peter Rowe "Don Robinson" wrote in message ... I've just had a brainstorm that you good people may be able to help me with. 8D It occurred to me that since sparex turns into a copper plating solution when iron is added to it, that I could use that to give a coppery color to pieces of a knife, such as a stainless steel blade, bolsters and other parts. We're always on the lookout for new and different ways to embellish our work. Titanium anodizing looks good, so I'm wondering if I can get a copper finish this way without damaging the metal. I have a pickle pot for jewelry. Do you think that adding a copper bar to the pot might get enough copper into solution for this? Custom Made Knives and Jewelry by Don Robinson http://home.rgv.rr.com/donrob |
#4
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Don Robinson wrote:
It occurred to me that since sparex turns into a copper plating solution when iron is added to it, that I could use that to give a coppery color to pieces ................... A very old trick documented in almost every jewelry manual, so RTFM might be the appropriate comment. Scratches off as easily , and the copper reacts with skin oils and the environment. With time the piece might shift between shiny orange, then dirty grey, then corrosion green. Copper can be patinated to several colors and sealed with a varnish to slow this down. -- cheers m |
#5
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Thanks for the answers, Peter and Don. It seems more trouble than it's worth
for what I had in mind. I guess that's the reason nobody else does it. 8D And yes, that brain storm turned into a dud. 8D -- Custom Made Knives and Jewelry by Don Robinson http://home.rgv.rr.com/donrob "Don T" wrote in message ... Why not do it right? Make up a -*real*- Cu plating solution and electroplate your parts in a _repeatable_ manner. -- Don Thompson "The only stupid questions are those that should have been asked, but weren't, or those that have been asked and answered over and over, but the answers not listened to." Peter Rowe "Don Robinson" wrote in message ... I've just had a brainstorm that you good people may be able to help me with. 8D It occurred to me that since sparex turns into a copper plating solution when iron is added to it, that I could use that to give a coppery color to pieces of a knife, such as a stainless steel blade, bolsters and other parts. We're always on the lookout for new and different ways to embellish our work. Titanium anodizing looks good, so I'm wondering if I can get a copper finish this way without damaging the metal. I have a pickle pot for jewelry. Do you think that adding a copper bar to the pot might get enough copper into solution for this? Custom Made Knives and Jewelry by Don Robinson http://home.rgv.rr.com/donrob |
#6
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On Fri, 13 Feb 2004 23:37:36 -0800, in rec.crafts.jewelry "Don Robinson"
wrote: Thanks for the answers, Peter and Don. It seems more trouble than it's worth for what I had in mind. I guess that's the reason nobody else does it. 8D And yes, that brain storm turned into a dud. 8D -- Custom Made Knives and Jewelry by Don Robinson Don, if this is too much trouble, you must not want to try it very much. Perhaps the length of my post made it seem complex? it's not really, not at least, to just give it a try. next time you happen to be at a good hardware store, see if they've got some copper sulphate somewhere. Mix a bit of it with water. Dunk in a piece of your steel, and see what happens. That's pretty easy to just try out, and perhaps you'll like the result. If the steel is not a totally inert stainless, so it does etch at least a little in the copper sulphate, then copper will plate out without additonal voltage. Stainless that doesn't etch might require more extensive handling. Much of my discussion was ways to extend the basic bit of chemistry all the way to a fully commercial quality setup and all. But if all you want is some copper flashing on your steel, what the heck. Go ahead and try it. maybe it will give you something interesting. maybe not. What's to loose. The main difference between this and your original idea is that I suggest using a straight copper sulphate solution, or mostly copper sulphate with only a bit of acid, rather than trying to modify sparex. That will maximize plating, and minimize etching of the steel. Now, if you already have some old, already turned light blue, thoroughly used pickle, then try it first before spending a dime. Again, perhaps it will do something you like. peter |
#7
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Peter is just so on the ball!
And yes you need a nickel strike before the copper. Look for caswell plating on the web if you want to spend a bit more money than need be, but it is a one stop shop. Search Yahoo groups for plating, you will learn more than you want to know. Les On 13-Feb-2004, Peter W. Rowe pwrowe@ixDOTnetcomDOTcom wrote: X-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 22:07:35 EST (news1.east.cox.net) On Fri, 13 Feb 2004 18:26:34 -0800, in rec.crafts.jewelry "Don Robinson" wrote: I've just had a brainstorm that you good people may be able to help me with. 8D Watch out for those brainstorms... :-) It occurred to me that since sparex turns into a copper plating solution when iron is added to it, It doesn't. Long use of a sparex pickle dissolves copper oxides from the jewelry metals being pickled. If you then put a metal like silver or gold, which has a low degree of chemical reactivity, into the liquid while it is also in contact with a metal, like iron, with a higher degree of reactivity (actually, the property is called 'electronegativity", but thinking of it as reactivity may help), then you set up what amounts to a battery, or galvanic cell. the iron dissolves, and in doing this it becomes ionized. when this happens, other ions in the solution become UNionized, balanceing the electrical charges. The result is that copper, which is less reactive than iron, comes out of solution when the iron goes in, and it does it by plating out on the silver or gold. The iron does not make the solution a copper plating solution. What the iron does is supply the electical voltage needed to bring the copper back out of solution. that I could use that to give a coppery color to pieces of a knife, such as a stainless steel blade, bolsters and other parts. We're always on the lookout for new and different ways to embellish our work. Titanium anodizing looks good, so I'm wondering if I can get a copper finish this way without damaging the metal. Well, the trick to this question is the bit about damaging the metal. If the part is stainless, and resists the acid attack of the solution, then copper will not plate out unless you add a battery to the setup. if the iron is not stainless, (or some of the less resistant stainless alloys, such as many of the 440 type hardenable alloys you might be using), then it will plate out with copper, but will do it because some of the iron dissolves, forcing copper out. That continues till enough copper has deposited on the surface so no more iron can dissolve. But these types of copper deposit tend to be porous and poorly adherant to the metal, so it's not only a somewhat poor plating, but attack of the underylying metal can continue for some time. Whether this is useful depends on what you wish to do. The acid is well cleaning the steel while all this is going on, and the copper too is good and clean, so even a light scratch brush with something soft enough to burnish the copper instead of abrading it back off, such as a soft brass wire platers brush, could well give you a good usable copper deposit. Worth trying, at any rate. But skip the bit about adding copper to pickle. Think about pickle as just a sulphuric acid salt. With copper added in solution, it's copper sulphate solution. Acid copper plating baths are easy to make yourself. Just add crystaline copper sulphate (you can get this at the hardware store. Cheap. I think it's called blue vitriol or something, if not copper sulphate. Used to treat for algae and moss, etc. Then, if you wish, some baths will wish a bit of sulphuric acid added, so there's some excess free acid in the solution. Untracht, and several other books will have exact recipes. Now, people doing this intending a really good plate will likely get fancier, often adding brighteners to give the deposit a finer grain and surface levelling qualities, which translates to a bright shine, when it works right. The best of these are proprietary, but often things like a bit of molasses will move the soltuion at least partially in that direction. Use just a little and see what happens. And I'd suggest doing the plating with an actual battery, rather just as an immersion plate. you'll get a better deposit. Copper plates at very low voltages, but can use fairly high amps. 1.5 volts is quite enough, usually. if you add some things like bubblers or stirrers, good sediment filters, and use the commercial brighteners, you'd have a solution quite capable of doing substantial electroforming, as well as surface plating. If you wish a copper plate that does not etch the steel as it goes on, then you'd have to investigate pre-plate deposits, often nickle, to protect the iron from the acid. And some stainless won't plate well without a "strike" plate first with a surface activating bath. If memory serves (and I could be wrong here), I seem to recall these are based on phosphoric acid. The purpose is to remove the surface passivating layer from stainless (the formation of which is what makes it stainless, after all), since that oxide layer interferes with good plating adhesion. Do you think that adding a copper bar to the pot might get enough copper into solution for this? No. copper itself dissolves slowly in actual sulphuric acid, but only VERY slowly in sodium bisulphate pickle. copper OXIDE, on the other hand, dissolves handily. So you could repeatedly heat your copper bar till it's black, then pickle it, and repeat, to get copper into solution. But this would take time and effort. Go to the hardware store. A pound of copper sulphate crystals will cost just a few dollars, I think. And if you don't use them after all, they're a very pretty dark blue, so then you'd put them in a nice glass jar and put them on a shelf in the sun where they'd be more decorative than most of the chemicals in your life. And if you want REALLY decorative ones, dissolve the stuff in distilled or deionized water, put it in a jar with a loose cover, and let is slowly evaporate. The stuff forms really pretty crystals, and when freshly and crisply crystalized like that, instead of the broken up crystal chunks or powder you'll buy in the store, you'll have crystal clusters that will rival some nice gems. Being water soluable, of course, kinda limits their decorative use to sitting on the shelf, but what the hey. it's fun. peter |
#8
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In article ,
Peter W. Rowe pwrowe@ixDOTnetcomDOTcom wrote: if this is too much trouble, you must not want to try it very much. Perhaps the length of my post made it seem complex? it's not really, not at least, to just give it a try. next time you happen to be at a good hardware store, see if they've got some copper sulphate somewhere. There's at least one professor of a jewellery school in the US who at the end of the school year plates the school's steel stakes etc with such a copper sulphate solution as a rust inhibitor. I picked this tip up at a SNAG workshop (Portland I think) and tried it here many years ago. The steel tools I 'plated' in this way certainly have retained the copper in perts that might otherwise have rusted, and the parts of the tools that are in relatively constant use remain un-coppered and also unrusted. Brian -- Brian Adam Auckland NEW ZEALAND |
#9
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Thanks for all the suggestions. If the copper sulphate solution alone would
work, and give a reasonably durable finish, then that's just what I was looking for. However, now we're talking about a nickel plate first, and that involves further expense and time, and I want to avoid that. This was just a hare-brained scheme to add another color. I don't want to become a plater. 8D Custom Made Knives and Jewelry by Don Robinson http://home.rgv.rr.com/donrob wrote in message ... Peter is just so on the ball! And yes you need a nickel strike before the copper. Look for caswell plating on the web if you want to spend a bit more money than need be, but it is a one stop shop. Search Yahoo groups for plating, you will learn more than you want to know. Les On 13-Feb-2004, Peter W. Rowe pwrowe@ixDOTnetcomDOTcom wrote: X-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 22:07:35 EST (news1.east.cox.net) On Fri, 13 Feb 2004 18:26:34 -0800, in rec.crafts.jewelry "Don Robinson" wrote: I've just had a brainstorm that you good people may be able to help me with. 8D Watch out for those brainstorms... :-) It occurred to me that since sparex turns into a copper plating solution when iron is added to it, It doesn't. Long use of a sparex pickle dissolves copper oxides from the jewelry metals being pickled. If you then put a metal like silver or gold, which has a low degree of chemical reactivity, into the liquid while it is also in contact with a metal, like iron, with a higher degree of reactivity (actually, the property is called 'electronegativity", but thinking of it as reactivity may help), then you set up what amounts to a battery, or galvanic cell. the iron dissolves, and in doing this it becomes ionized. when this happens, other ions in the solution become UNionized, balanceing the electrical charges. The result is that copper, which is less reactive than iron, comes out of solution when the iron goes in, and it does it by plating out on the silver or gold. The iron does not make the solution a copper plating solution. What the iron does is supply the electical voltage needed to bring the copper back out of solution. that I could use that to give a coppery color to pieces of a knife, such as a stainless steel blade, bolsters and other parts. We're always on the lookout for new and different ways to embellish our work. Titanium anodizing looks good, so I'm wondering if I can get a copper finish this way without damaging the metal. Well, the trick to this question is the bit about damaging the metal. If the part is stainless, and resists the acid attack of the solution, then copper will not plate out unless you add a battery to the setup. if the iron is not stainless, (or some of the less resistant stainless alloys, such as many of the 440 type hardenable alloys you might be using), then it will plate out with copper, but will do it because some of the iron dissolves, forcing copper out. That continues till enough copper has deposited on the surface so no more iron can dissolve. But these types of copper deposit tend to be porous and poorly adherant to the metal, so it's not only a somewhat poor plating, but attack of the underylying metal can continue for some time. Whether this is useful depends on what you wish to do. The acid is well cleaning the steel while all this is going on, and the copper too is good and clean, so even a light scratch brush with something soft enough to burnish the copper instead of abrading it back off, such as a soft brass wire platers brush, could well give you a good usable copper deposit. Worth trying, at any rate. But skip the bit about adding copper to pickle. Think about pickle as just a sulphuric acid salt. With copper added in solution, it's copper sulphate solution. Acid copper plating baths are easy to make yourself. Just add crystaline copper sulphate (you can get this at the hardware store. Cheap. I think it's called blue vitriol or something, if not copper sulphate. Used to treat for algae and moss, etc. Then, if you wish, some baths will wish a bit of sulphuric acid added, so there's some excess free acid in the solution. Untracht, and several other books will have exact recipes. Now, people doing this intending a really good plate will likely get fancier, often adding brighteners to give the deposit a finer grain and surface levelling qualities, which translates to a bright shine, when it works right. The best of these are proprietary, but often things like a bit of molasses will move the soltuion at least partially in that direction. Use just a little and see what happens. And I'd suggest doing the plating with an actual battery, rather just as an immersion plate. you'll get a better deposit. Copper plates at very low voltages, but can use fairly high amps. 1.5 volts is quite enough, usually. if you add some things like bubblers or stirrers, good sediment filters, and use the commercial brighteners, you'd have a solution quite capable of doing substantial electroforming, as well as surface plating. If you wish a copper plate that does not etch the steel as it goes on, then you'd have to investigate pre-plate deposits, often nickle, to protect the iron from the acid. And some stainless won't plate well without a "strike" plate first with a surface activating bath. If memory serves (and I could be wrong here), I seem to recall these are based on phosphoric acid. The purpose is to remove the surface passivating layer from stainless (the formation of which is what makes it stainless, after all), since that oxide layer interferes with good plating adhesion. Do you think that adding a copper bar to the pot might get enough copper into solution for this? No. copper itself dissolves slowly in actual sulphuric acid, but only VERY slowly in sodium bisulphate pickle. copper OXIDE, on the other hand, dissolves handily. So you could repeatedly heat your copper bar till it's black, then pickle it, and repeat, to get copper into solution. But this would take time and effort. Go to the hardware store. A pound of copper sulphate crystals will cost just a few dollars, I think. And if you don't use them after all, they're a very pretty dark blue, so then you'd put them in a nice glass jar and put them on a shelf in the sun where they'd be more decorative than most of the chemicals in your life. And if you want REALLY decorative ones, dissolve the stuff in distilled or deionized water, put it in a jar with a loose cover, and let is slowly evaporate. The stuff forms really pretty crystals, and when freshly and crisply crystalized like that, instead of the broken up crystal chunks or powder you'll buy in the store, you'll have crystal clusters that will rival some nice gems. Being water soluable, of course, kinda limits their decorative use to sitting on the shelf, but what the hey. it's fun. peter |
#10
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In article , "Don Robinson"
wrote: I've just had a brainstorm. Well, here's another -- get two carbons out of a dud 1.5v battery and a scrap battery with some life left in it. Connect up,a carbon to each pole of the battery. Take everything outside, where a bit of acid spray will not matter. Put the carbons in some used pickle and leave until the old battery is quite dead. Repeat using up all the old batteries you have, or until the pickle is clear again. It ought to be usable again. Might work, at least you can throw away all your scrap batteries instead of hoarding them, "in case they might be some good later." Igor -- igor _____________________________________________ Acorn RISC OS4 _____________________________________________ |
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