How to confirm that titanium is genuine...

Hey, all.

I just bought a watch which purports to be made of titanium. It all
looks legit, it's a Seiko, it has a serial number and a certificate
with it - but this purchase was made via EBay, and I want to be
*sure*...

It certainly is lightweight. But how else can I establish for certain
that the titanium is genuine? I took a pin and gently pressed it into
one area on the back of the strap - it appeared to scratch rather
easily, which surprised me - but then I've never had a titanium watch
before, so I am a little out of my depth.

Comments/suggestions appreciated.

BD

On Tue, 24 Oct 2006 18:24:57 -0700, in rec.crafts.jewelry "BD"
wrote:

Hey, all.

I just bought a watch which purports to be made of titanium. It all
looks legit, it's a Seiko, it has a serial number and a certificate
with it - but this purchase was made via EBay, and I want to be
*sure*...

It certainly is lightweight. But how else can I establish for certain
that the titanium is genuine? I took a pin and gently pressed it into
one area on the back of the strap - it appeared to scratch rather
easily, which surprised me - but then I've never had a titanium watch
before, so I am a little out of my depth.

Comments/suggestions appreciated.

BD


The light weight, and usually, a somewhat greyish color, as well as usually, the
lack of a high polish in favor of a somewhat frosted finish, are the common
hallmarks.

About the scratching, this is a misconception. Titanium, while very strong for
it's weight, is not all that hard. Tough, reasonably hard, but certainly not
impervious to scratching or wear. The metal forms a surface layer of titanium
oxide, which is somewhat harder than the metal itself, accounting for much of
it's percieved hardness, but this is not something that gives the metal unusual
great hardness or durability.

Another thing to keep in mind, regarding "genuine", is that it's not really much
of an issue. This is not like gold, where there's significant value in the
metal, and presumably an incentive to cheat. Titanium metal, though more costly
that plain stainless steel, at least by a bit, is not really that expensive.
Machinging it into a watch case costs more, perhaps, but outfits like Seiko are
set up well enough that it's not an important difference in their cost. So if
it is really a Seiko, and it's marked or sold as titanium, you should have no
reason to suspect that. And the main reason it's used in the first place, is
simply that very nice light weight. So if the watch is as light as it should be
for a titanium case, then it almost doesn't matter if it's all titanium, or if
other materials are used too, etc, since the main goal of using titanium has
been met. And since even some of the cheaper watch brands can be had with
titanium cases, now and then, the real issue becomes not whether the case is
titanium or not, but whether you've actually got a genuine Seiko or not. And,
if the ebay seller had good feedback ratings, then likely, the watch is as
represented, though of course that's not guaranteed in all cases. Any watch
can be faked, and the better fakes will have nice looking serial numbers and
equally fake certificates too. But given the relatively modest price of
Seikos, chances are this one is real enough if it looks good enough to fool you.
The best check would be for any decent watch maker to open the case and look at
the movement. That would always tell you. But probably, just the details of
how well the case is made and finished, will be enough.

For more expertise on watches, you may wish to ask this over on alt.horology.

Peter Rowe

For more expertise on watches, you may wish to ask this over on alt.horology.

Thanks, Peter. That's very helpful. I may follow up aith a jeweller to
be certain.

Cheers,

BD

BD wrote:
Hey, all.

I just bought a watch which purports to be made of titanium. It all
looks legit, it's a Seiko, it has a serial number and a certificate
with it - but this purchase was made via EBay, and I want to be
*sure*...

It certainly is lightweight. But how else can I establish for certain
that the titanium is genuine? I took a pin and gently pressed it into
one area on the back of the strap - it appeared to scratch rather
easily, which surprised me -

Why? What made you think, that it would not scratch? This is not hardened tool
steel? Titanium is rather soft.

--
Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com

BD wrote:
For more expertise on watches, you may wish to ask this over on alt.horology.

Thanks, Peter. That's very helpful. I may follow up aith a jeweller to
be certain.


And what makes you think, that a jeweler would know? Jewelers by and large,
have no clue about Titanium. I can tell you from experience.

Talk to a machinist or a metallurgist, if you want certainty. Especially a
machinist who machines Titanium regularly, would know by just looking at it.

--
Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com

On Tue, 24 Oct 2006 22:51:32 -0700, in rec.crafts.jewelry Abrasha
wrote:

BD wrote:
For more expertise on watches, you may wish to ask this over on alt.horology.

Thanks, Peter. That's very helpful. I may follow up aith a jeweller to
be certain.


And what makes you think, that a jeweler would know? Jewelers by and large,
have no clue about Titanium. I can tell you from experience.

Talk to a machinist or a metallurgist, if you want certainty. Especially a
machinist who machines Titanium regularly, would know by just looking at it.

And more, most jewelers aren't even that knowledgeable about watches either.
What he needs is either, as you suggest, someone who's well familier with
titanium, or, what I was thinking, someone familiar enough with watches to be
able to tell him for sure that he actually has a Seiko, rather than a fake.
Seems to me that if it's a genuine Seiko, then the chances of it being
fraudulently marked/sold as titanium, are slim, at least so long as the
identification of titanium is part of the Seiko description, rather than just
the ebay auction.

Peter.

BD wrote:
Hey, all.

I just bought a watch which purports to be made of titanium. It all
looks legit, it's a Seiko, it has a serial number and a certificate
with it - but this purchase was made via EBay, and I want to be
*sure*...

It certainly is lightweight. But how else can I establish for certain
that the titanium is genuine? I took a pin and gently pressed it into
one area on the back of the strap - it appeared to scratch rather
easily, which surprised me - but then I've never had a titanium watch
before, so I am a little out of my depth.

Comments/suggestions appreciated.

BD



A gemologist (or physics lab stubent/prof.) might be able to measure the
specific gravity of a single link. Hard to fake SG. (though there would
be slight differences between 2-3 common alloys of titanium).
Also, someone in the electronics industry (or, again, a
physics/materials lab.) may have access to an X-ray Fluoresence machine.
The XRF we have can determine most moderate-heavy elements and their
percentages as well as plating thicknesses etc. We use it for confirming
lead-free components and determining gold and other plating thickness on
parts and PC boards.

Carl


--
to reply, change ( .not) to ( .net)

I downloaded new messages from rec.crafts.jewelry on Wed, 25 Oct 2006
01:24:57 GMT, and "BD" vomited forth this bit
of wisdom :

Hey, all.

I just bought a watch which purports to be made of titanium. It all
looks legit, it's a Seiko, it has a serial number and a certificate
with it - but this purchase was made via EBay, and I want to be
*sure*...

It certainly is lightweight. But how else can I establish for certain
that the titanium is genuine? I took a pin and gently pressed it into
one area on the back of the strap - it appeared to scratch rather
easily, which surprised me - but then I've never had a titanium watch
before, so I am a little out of my depth.

Comments/suggestions appreciated.

BD


You can also call Coserv (call 800 directory asst and ask for Seiko)
and tell them the serial number (should be on the back of the watch.)
They can tell you if it's a legit number and describe the watch.

Why? What made you think, that it would not scratch? This is not hardened tool
steel? Titanium is rather soft.

This is what I wasn't clear on. I've never really *seen* titanium up to
this point, and am reading that it is lighter than steel, but mouch
*stronger*. And when I read 'stronger', I interpret this as
scratch-resistant. Clearly that's not correct. Which is fine, I just
don't know what I should expect regarding its durability - but as I
read, I am getting more of a handle on it.

BD wrote:
Why? What made you think, that it would not scratch? This is not hardened tool
steel? Titanium is rather soft.


This is what I wasn't clear on. I've never really *seen* titanium up to
this point, and am reading that it is lighter than steel, but mouch
*stronger*. And when I read 'stronger', I interpret this as
scratch-resistant. Clearly that's not correct. Which is fine, I just
don't know what I should expect regarding its durability - but as I
read, I am getting more of a handle on it.


Im not a jeweller in the normal sence ,ie I dont set stones or
but I do work titanium from the smallest items up to
large dishes,
ie up to 18in acreoss by 1/4 in thick. so I do have probably more
experience of this element in its variuos metallic forms than most other
jewellers.
i can say that it has in its alloyed form strength similar to steel,
but is a lot l[ghter. Also its very corrosion resistant as its oxide is
virtually un dissolvable except with the flourine range of acids.
Most watch makers will use one of the machineable alloys for watch casws
and straps.
In its 99.9% pure form its much softer doesnt work harden much even with
heavy working than its alloys. But considerably more expensive.
Can only be joined by welding under an argon shield. Obviously I dont
count joining by rivetting or screwing in this context.
Developed primarily for the aero space and chemical industry.
Hope this helps.