Terribly OT opinions requested...

My love of
seeing my mom, sister and myself in Meg isnt ego tho.

Oh, no, I didn't mean that. I meant that having it be *absolutely*necessary*
to see yourself in your child is ego. Of *course* it is a pleasure, a
connectedness! I wouldn't deny that for a second. But people who NEED to have
their child reflect them, so cannot adopt because of this requirement, have a
bit of a Problem, you know?
~~
Sooz
-------
ESBC
~ Dr. Sooz's Bead Links
http://airandearth.netfirms.com/soozlinkslist.html
~ Bead Notes: Beading information A - Z
http://www.lampwork.net/beadnotes.html

Oh, exactly ... a child is a child is the end of the discussion. My love of
seeing my mom, sister and myself in Meg isnt ego tho. Its a connectedness to
those two women who I resemble, loved and miss daily, and now to see these
glimpses of Mom and Leah in Meg feels warm.. loving.. the past and present
mingling. I was saying that if Meg had resembled mikes side of the family
totally it wouldnt change the love I feel for her one iota. If a child came
into my life that was not genetically mine I could give it my heart totally.
Im not into ownership of people so perhaps Im freer to love without
reservation or hesitation. :-) So, I have a hard time comprehending the
attitude of those who exclude adoption as an option.
Diana

--
http://photos.yahoo.com/lunamom44

"Dr. Sooz" wrote in message
...


Yeah -- that seeing-yourself-in-the-child's-face thing is simply ego. A
child
is a child.
~~
Sooz
-------
ESBC
~ Dr. Sooz's Bead Links
http://airandearth.netfirms.com/soozlinkslist.html
~ Bead Notes: Beading information A - Z
http://www.lampwork.net/beadnotes.html

Hmmm...okay, but the way you worded your response it sounded
(to me) like you were saying tubal ligation would damage her health.

Anyway...I also had difficulty with two pregnancies and when I
talked of tubal ligation at age 27 my Dr. thought it was a very good
idea. He did ask me to give it a lot of thought, which I did, but it
was still a very wise thing to do.

take care, Linda


On Wed, 16 Jul 2003 18:23:12 GMT, "Christina Peterson"
wrote:

You misunderstand. Pregancies have been very hard on her. And while there
are good reasons to hold off on "becoming sterile" at the young age of 27
and that she might want children (later), the biggest consideration is it
(having children) might damage her health.

You always have to look at both sides of the consequences when you make a
decision of this great importance.

I had a miscarriage in my 20s, after I already had 2 children, at 18 and 20,
and I was talked out of tubal ligation. Had one done instead at 35. I wish
it had been done earlier. But I understand why it was discouraged. My
husband also has been "fixed".

Tina

"Linda D." wrote in message
news:3f157814.3779081@news...

In what way does a tubal ligation damage one's health? I had
it done 19 yrs. ago at age 27 and have had no after effects at all.

take care, Linda


On Wed, 16 Jul 2003 08:15:54 GMT, "Christina Peterson"
wrote:

But 27 is still very young to be certain that she will never remarry and
wish for children. The biggest consideration is that it might damage her
health.

What I really hesitate to say though, is that coming from a family with
such
trauma as she has told us of quite often, limiting children is also a
good
idea.

Tina

Vancouver Island, bc.ca (remove 'nospam' to reply)
See samples of my work at: www.members.shaw.ca/deugau




Vancouver Island, bc.ca (remove 'nospam' to reply)
See samples of my work at: www.members.shaw.ca/deugau

My second sister, Kani, has vaguely epicantic eyefolds. People would
occassionally ask if there was any Oriental blood. She was our exotic
sister, who didn't seem to look like anyone else. Yet when she wnet to
Europe, it was she more than anyone else who relatives thought looked like
"one of us".

Tina


"Diana Curtis" wrote in message
...
I dont get that either.. ..grand kids are grandkids. If my son and his SO
had adopted their child it would be my grandchild. What does genetics
have
to do with love?
I do understand that looking at a genetic relative and seeing family
traits.
Seeing my mom or sis in my little girls face is wonderful, but what if she
had no features in common with my family?
Kids are kids, they need love.. end of story. :-)
Diana

--
http://photos.yahoo.com/lunamom44

"Marisa E Exter" wrote in message
...
Kathy N-V wrote:

This is due to a policy statement put out by the Black Social Worker's
Association. Some time back, they passed a position statement saying
that
adoption of black or mixed race kids into white families was akin to
ethnic
cleansing (or genocide, I can't remember which term, but they were
equally
offensive). They stated that they'd far rather these kids gain their
najority in institutions or foster care than be raised by a white
family.


Did they give reasons for this recommendation?

From a lot of reports I've heard lately (I get most of my news off the
radio),
"institutions" are extreemly stretched and being used for much more then
their
intended purpose (most are desgined as short-term holding places while
kids end
up staying months or even years and/or get transferred back and forth
between
similar places), and too many foster care situations (which may or may
not
be
with people of "suitable" race for the children) are hosted by families
using
this partially as a means to raise an income and not necessarily
families
who
are adequately prepaired to deal with children with problems, and again
the
children keep getting moved around from one to the other.

After hearing all of this I have sadly thought a time or two that maybe
it
would
be a good (well, better then nothing) idea to recreate real orphanages
to
at
least give the children a stable environment, but it would seem to me
obvious
that a loving family who wants them would be the ideal choice.
I don't see how a child can learn anything about culture or much of
anything
else in the types of "institutions" generally available right now.

...

On a side topic, I really don't understand the need to have one's own
biological
children. I personally am not looking forward THAT MUCH to being
pregnant
or
having a newborn (I'm typically not interested in kids until they start
talking
and "doing stuff") and I feel I could fall in love with almost any child
(knowing myself, I know that I would not be the right parent for a child
with
severe mental disabilities, but I think I could be very understanding to
a
child
with learning disabilities (my husband and several friends have various
ones) or
physical disabilities).
However my husband, just about the most generous person I have ever met,
really
wants his own biological children and we've got 5 grandparents and some
great-grandparents who have all expressed similar desires in one form or
other
. (DH's father and stepmother have had one adopted child and one
foster
child
in addition to 6 children and several grandchildren on the stepmother's
side,
but DH says he knows his father really wants his "own" grandchild, and
apparently amoungst DH's biological siblings we appear most likely to
ever
get
around to producing those)
It is actually hard for me to understand the difference between having a
"biological" child and falling in love with one that isn't, but maybe
I'll
understand more after I have one of my own?

marisa2

Having non-parents be part of the child-raising process used to be the norm.
It is since we have gotten so mobile and "self-sufficient" that we lost the
extended family.

I also agree that if more children had been properly parented there would
not be such a yearning to fix it -- by trying to do it right as teens and
in the twenties.

Tina


"Deirdre S." wrote in message
...
My favorite idea would be to see us evolve ways for *many* adults to
be involved in the life and maturation process of the children who
already exist, so it wasn't necessary for everyone to have children
biologically in order to feel invested in the next generation.

It would require a lot of good communication among the co-parents
about what values they felt needed to be used in jointly raising such
a child. Only people with compatible values would make good co-parents
... without that, there would simply be a damaging tug of war over the
children.

But it could potentially end child-neglect, where only one, or in some
cases, no adults at all were available to stay tuned in and connected
to each child now alive on the planet, and could satisfy one big
reason why people want children: in order to involve themselves in our
shared future in a way that is deeply personal.

And I think irresponsible child-bearing would go way down if people in
their twenties had gotten what was necessary in their own childhoods
to feel really loved and secure. So the process of loving today's
children would mean less likelihood of tomorrow's unwanted and
neglected children. The process would feed itself, once begun.

Lots of people end up with a child because they were desperately
lonely, and just wanted to be held. And sex seemed like the only way
to get that wish fulfilled.

Deirdre

On Thu, 17 Jul 2003 11:06:14 -0400, "laura"
wrote:

It's easier to pretend the problem
doesn't exist on a society wide basis than it would be to find a way to
get
society to agree on how to solve the problem.

On Thu, 17 Jul 2003 16:35:17 -0500, Marisa E Exter
wrote:

Kathy N-V wrote:

We very much wanted a family, but we ended up deciding that the cons of
adopting through state agencies were too much for us. Between that and the
problems posed by our respective families, we decided to take a chance at
having a child of our own. We decided that if we were unable to have
children of our own, we would probably do without, rather than have an
adopted child suffer the rejection from both our families.

I am guessing people here are not going to feel "happy" about that part.

I don't have a problem with it... It was a totally reasonable
decision.

I like your three answers.

Tina


"marisa2" wrote in message
.com...

For instance, in the original 3 questions of this thread I would say that
1) I couldn't imagine anyone being in the delivery room other then DH or
if
for some reason he couldn't be there MAYBE one other carefully chosen
substitute.
2) I feel it's SO important especially for grandparents to be in on a new
child's life (to the extent that grandparents often fly across the country
or even the world to participate in such an event), that I don't think I
could ban them from seeing me and a baby at a hospital, although somehow
limiting the time they were there so-as not to harm a mother's health is a
good idea.
3) A parental suggestion as to what to do about birthcontrol etc after the
child's birth could be listened to politely and considered somewhat, but
after all other considerations are weighed, the parties involved should
make
their own decision and I the parents' advise can't weigh more then it's
worth. I guess what I'm trying to say is, of course Karlee should make
her
decision together with her husband on what they each should do. When
advise
is given by her mother, I would suggest that Karlee should listen to the
opinion offered with the same levity and respect that she would probably
like back if she offered an opinion on such a matter, EVEN IF she already
made up her mind and/or finds her mother's reasons non-applicable.
Listening respectfully is part of a good relationship, and people will
tend
to squabble less and think more before they say something if they feel
that
what they say is truly listened to. If they don't feel this way, what
they
say tends to become more and more reactionary and less and less
thoughtful.

I further WOULD let the grandmother (well, Karlee's own mother. Her
husband's mother has done things which take her beyond "annoying" into
"dangerous" and with children involved I would say that that takes her out
of this consideration) be involved much more. This IS an important time
for
her too, and if she was allowed she could be of real help as far as
helping
in the house, babysitting the older child, etc., she would feel ...
well....
like she did what a grandmother is expected to and happily awaits doing.
I
have heard in one way or other from all 4 of my grandparents that being a
parent is hard work, being a grandparent is a joy, and one of the few
things
of growing older to really look forward too. Denying these experiences or
making them into reasons to squabble could end up souring the situation
and
to some extent life in general for all parties involved.
Karlee seems to want independence a lot right now, but she is about to
become the mother of two... personally, I would think that now could be
used
as a good time to learn to have a new adult-to-adult relationship together
and a time to bond, rather then yet another time for Karlee to prove
independence (something I'm gradually learning about this time of my life
and my relationship with my own parents.)

I didn't say any of this earlier because Karlee asked for advise from
current mothers . However, I am only a year younger then Karlee so I
guess some of recent life experience isn't entirely dissimilar.

marisa2

In article , says...

LOL, you want to hear something odd?? I'm adopted. Got placed with my family
when I was 3 days old, adoption finalized a few months later.

I look like the perfect combo of my parents.

Adoption agencies used to go to some lengths to match couples with children who
were likely to have similar characteristics. (They had descriptions, or
pictures, of the birth parents to work with.) I suppose it's possible that some
of them still work that way, though one would think it would just be an extra
unnecessary burden these days.

The eye thing....both of my parents have blue eyes, but the majority of my
mothers family has brown eyes (as do I when I'm not wearing my green contacts

Actually, that's enough to tell anyone who knows much about genetics that you
are not your parents' biological child. Blue eyes are recessive, which means
that you only get them if you get the gene for that color from *both* parents,
which means that a blue-eyed person can only pass along the blue-eyed gene. So
while it's possible for two brown-eyed parents to have a blue-eyed child, it is
*not* possible for two blue-eyed parents to produce a brown-eyed child.

Celine

--
Handmade jewelry at http://www.rubylane.com/shops/starcat
"Only the powers of evil claim that doing good is boring."
-- Diane Duane, _Nightfall at Algemron_

| For instance, in the original 3 questions of this thread I would say that
| 1) I couldn't imagine anyone being in the delivery room other then DH or if
| for some reason he couldn't be there MAYBE one other carefully chosen
| substitute.

One has already been chosen. A doula that works for free for military wives giving birth in military facilities while
the father is deployed. A deployment would be the only reason that he would not be able to be there. Two reasons for
me not wanting my parents there in the labor room. 1) Mom won't let me be in labor MY way...which is to make it known
that I'm in pain....if you have never been in labor, ask some of your friends how bad it hurts....if you have been, you
know full well what I'm talking about. 2) Embarassment Factor. I don't really want my mom much less my dad, seeing my
growed up parts. I'm even uncomfortable when the doc does an exam. I know docs and nurses are professional, and they
have seen more of those parts in every size, shape, and color than the adult entertainment industry has (I'm a CNA, and
I've seen more of them than I care to admit), but I'm still uncomfortable. Doubly so when its my *dad* looking there.

| 2) I feel it's SO important especially for grandparents to be in on a new
| child's life (to the extent that grandparents often fly across the country
| or even the world to participate in such an event), that I don't think I
| could ban them from seeing me and a baby at a hospital, although somehow
| limiting the time they were there so-as not to harm a mother's health is a
| good idea.

More on this below.


| 3) A parental suggestion as to what to do about birthcontrol etc after the
| child's birth could be listened to politely and considered somewhat, but
| after all other considerations are weighed, the parties involved should make
| their own decision and I the parents' advise can't weigh more then it's
| worth. I guess what I'm trying to say is, of course Karlee should make her
| decision together with her husband on what they each should do. When advise
| is given by her mother, I would suggest that Karlee should listen to the
| opinion offered with the same levity and respect that she would probably
| like back if she offered an opinion on such a matter, EVEN IF she already
| made up her mind and/or finds her mother's reasons non-applicable.
| Listening respectfully is part of a good relationship, and people will tend
| to squabble less and think more before they say something if they feel that
| what they say is truly listened to. If they don't feel this way, what they
| say tends to become more and more reactionary and less and less thoughtful.

I've been on birth control. My first child was a pill baby. After he was born, I was on the shot for 6 years and chose
to go off of it. Being that I don't want to go through pregnancy again (too rough on my body) sterilazation is really a
logical decision. Yes, its permanent. Very rarely is a reversal successful. I'm ok with both of these. I do listen
respectfully, but remind my mother that its my body that is going through all this, and I am the only one that has *to*
and *can* deal with the pain of labor and childbirth. Mother, for some reason, can not or will not understand that
fact.



|
| I further WOULD let the grandmother (well, Karlee's own mother. Her
| husband's mother has done things which take her beyond "annoying" into
| "dangerous" and with children involved I would say that that takes her out
| of this consideration) be involved much more. This IS an important time for
| her too, and if she was allowed she could be of real help as far as helping
| in the house, babysitting the older child, etc., she would feel ... well....
| like she did what a grandmother is expected to and happily awaits doing. I
| have heard in one way or other from all 4 of my grandparents that being a
| parent is hard work, being a grandparent is a joy, and one of the few things
| of growing older to really look forward too. Denying these experiences or
| making them into reasons to squabble could end up souring the situation and
| to some extent life in general for all parties involved.
| Karlee seems to want independence a lot right now, but she is about to
| become the mother of two... personally, I would think that now could be used
| as a good time to learn to have a new adult-to-adult relationship together
| and a time to bond, rather then yet another time for Karlee to prove
| independence (something I'm gradually learning about this time of my life
| and my relationship with my own parents.)

My mother is a lot more involved in kidlet the first's life than I let on to. However, I will not let her in the house
to clean while I'm not here. Hell, I won't even let her clean while I *am* here. Main reason being, she likes to
reorganize everything, and bitch about how I can't even clean right. Hey, you can see the floor, you can sit on the
couches, we don't have critters with extra legs in the kitchen, the sink is always empty, and the bathrooms always tidy.
She thinks that everything needs to be hospital clean. I think that my house is just fine the way is is. So there are
papers on the computer desk and on the bakers rack. So there is a little clutter. My house is clean, but looks lived
in. Hers looks like something out of Better Homes and Gardens. Lets not forget the fact that I can't do anything right
in her eyes. She takes kidlet the first when its convinenient for all parties considered, she takes kidlet the first to
get his pictures taken at sears around christmas time (even though I think that what I pay for school pictures is
enough), she is constantly buying him books and clothes. I think that she is involved enough. If it is convienent for
her, she will be asked to watch kidlet the first at HER house while Ellie is making her grand entrance...providing that
I have to stay in the labor room over night. If I have gone into labor, and labor hasnt gone past his bed time, he will
be allowed to stay with me. When night comes, he will go home with DH and they will be back in the morning. DH and I
have already discussed this.

Yes, I want my independance. At 27, its about time that I get it. I've been trying for the past 9 years to "be me" and
be independant, but for some reason she feels that I'm still 5 years old and can't do for myself because I don't do
things exactly her way. When/if DH and I stay with my parents for a night, if we want to go out, we have a curfew. If
we don't go out, we have a bed time. I can understand both of these to some extent, but a 9:00 curfew when we want to
go to a movie is a little odd donchathink? I had a later curfew when I was 17 than I do now. If by some miracle of
happenstance that kidlet the first is with his dad, and we have the money to go out to a movie, and do so, if she calls,
I get reamed for staying out too late...even if we get in by 10:30. I caught a ton of hell when I was a single mom and
would go out when kidlet the first was with his dad. Mom thought that I didn't need to be out releasing stress with my
friends. She thought that I needed to be home with the phone stuck up my ass waiting for her to call. Mom is too
controlling, too nosy, and refuses to let me grow up. I fight against the apron strings every chance I get. The
independance that I want is the independance that comes with being an adult. I want to pay my own bills, I want to
clean my own house, I want to prepare my own meals, and I want to raise my own kids. I don't want to have my mother
breathing down my neck every step that I make (which is exactly how she wants it...did I tell you about the conversation
that I had with her two days after my wedding?? If I didn't and you want to hear it, let me know). I want to be an
adult. I want to have the responsibilities that an adult has. Until recently, I have not been able to be or act like
an adult because mom was always there, wanting to see and balance my checkbook for me, wanting to clean my house,
wanting to organize my house and my life for me. I don't want that. My checkbook is my business. I've learned the
hard way how to keep track of everything in it. I want to clean my own house, my way. That means that if I don't want
to use "Old English" like she does, I don't have to. That means if I want to clean the toilet before the sink I can.
That means if I want the tupperware where the kids can get it and the chemicals above the washer where its a lot harder
and way out of their reach, thats where I'm going to put them (I'd much rather have to pick up 9 bazillion pieces of
tupperware than take a kid to the er because of poisioning). I like my movies where they are, I like my phone where it
is, and I like having the spaghetti pot on top of the fridge. Yes, they have asked (demanded really) to see the
checkbook. The fight was unimaginable. When DH and I were planning our wedding, they DEMANDED to see the guest list to
make sure that I wasn't inviting any of "their" friends. That little stunt almost got me evicted from the house that
they were letting me live in (they bought it for me, I loved that little house, but it was nothing but problems for
us....they felt that since they had provided the house that I OWED them rights to my life, I lived there 3 years, and
that was 3 years too long) and them almost getting un-invited to the wedding. The wedding plans in their own right, are
a whole other pot of tea...ask at your own risk.

My whole point in this long ramble is that my parents don't allow me to be an adult despite my desire to be one.
Unfortunatley, I know too many parents that have the exact opposite problem. My mother treats me like I'm 5 and always
has. I'm putting limits on her now, to try to train her. Train her to realise that I'm an adult, and I'm going to do
things my way. The only objection that she has any right to make is if I'm harming the kids. Which I'm not. My son
eats what I eat and often times more than what I eat (I swear that kid has a hollow leg), has his own room, more toys
than he knows what to do with, gets a good education both at home and at school, always has nice (not name brand, but no
holes or stains) clothes and shoes, doesn't ever go very long without a hair cut, and is learning responsibility. I
don't beat on him (making him scrub the toilet is proven to be more effective than a time out in our house), I don't
scream at him, don't call him names (except sugar pie, sweetie, and his favorite - sugar bear), and don't deny him
sunlight or exercise. I don't parent kidlet the first the way that she parented me, but that doesn't mean how I do
things is wrong. Just means that I do things different.

I highly doubt that any time in this century, I'll have an adult to adult relationship with my parents. I want the
adult-adult thing, but they see only an adult-child relationship. sigh where is a magic wand when I need one??

|
| I didn't say any of this earlier because Karlee asked for advise from
| current mothers . However, I am only a year younger then Karlee so I
| guess some of recent life experience isn't entirely dissimilar.
|
| marisa2


Its all good. The thread has evolved to a point beyond "what would/did you do when you were in labor??" and all the
points that have been brought up to me (and everyone else for that matter) are definitely lots of things to consider.
Believe me, I will be using or at least trying a good number of the options, mainly to try to get mom to realize that
I'm a grown up, and need to have the respect of a grown up.

Hugs
Karlee in Kansas

"Lee S. Billings" wrote in message ...
| In article , says...
|
| LOL, you want to hear something odd?? I'm adopted. Got placed with my family
| when I was 3 days old, adoption finalized a few months later.
|
| I look like the perfect combo of my parents.
|
| Adoption agencies used to go to some lengths to match couples with children who
| were likely to have similar characteristics. (They had descriptions, or
| pictures, of the birth parents to work with.) I suppose it's possible that some
| of them still work that way, though one would think it would just be an extra
| unnecessary burden these days.

I don't know if this agency did that or not. I was told that there was an adoption group that met once a month to
discuss adoption issues, including but not limited to: discussing the stresses of adopting, parenting, acceptance, etc.
I was told that the group was basically a waiting list as well....first couple to sign up was the first on the list,
second couple was second on the list, so on and so forth. The people at the top of the list were called when a baby
became available. They were invited to spend an hour or so with the child, then decide if they wanted that child or
wanted to wait for another. Odd I know, but this was a private agency, and 27 years ago. Now if this is really how
things were done or not is up in the air. I'm just going off of what I was told.

|
| The eye thing....both of my parents have blue eyes, but the majority of my
| mothers family has brown eyes (as do I when I'm not wearing my green contacts
|
| Actually, that's enough to tell anyone who knows much about genetics that you
| are not your parents' biological child. Blue eyes are recessive, which means
| that you only get them if you get the gene for that color from *both* parents,
| which means that a blue-eyed person can only pass along the blue-eyed gene. So
| while it's possible for two brown-eyed parents to have a blue-eyed child, it is
| *not* possible for two blue-eyed parents to produce a brown-eyed child.
|
| Celine
|

Do'H!!! I had forgotten that point from my college biology course...ty for the reminder. I do know that a lot of
people out there don't know that though...or they don't pay close enough attention to eye color.

Hugs
Karlee in Kansas