OT proposed discussion: How did you learn to be a "woman" rather than a "girl"?

Polly Esther wrote:
My goodness. Let's see if I got all of that: flyaway hair, pimples,
overweight and no makeup. Yes, indeed, sweet Tricia, you've hit the nail on
the head.

You summed it up alright -- =(

I wouldn't be tempted to hire anyone who gave the impression that she
didn't give a happy hoot how she looked. I'd think if you didn't care about
that, then you wouldn't care how the job you did looked either. That's a
tacky criteria but first impressions are so very important.

I do care how I look and that's part of what irritates me about the
situation is fearing the fact that I do care doesn't show.

DH just paused by here and asked what was going on with the quilters
today. I told him, and I told him my reaction.
DH says, "You're a big help". Heck. What am I supposed to do? Tell
you it doesn't matter? Nope. Let's Do something.

Bless your DH *hugs for him*

Start asking women whose hair you admire who their stylist is. Try a
couple. I'll bet there's one who can do wonders for you. And yes, make an
appointment with your Mary Kay lady when you and she are unhurried. Those
ladies know their business.

Will start inquiring to find one -- I still consider myself new to the
area and that's sort of adding to my "I feel awful and pitiful about
myself" mood today. Any suggestions for meeting friends? I didn't
feel comfortable at the quilt guild meeting, although to be honest, I
dont' think I gave it enough of a try. The next meeting won't be for
another few weeks though. Church, while people are nice, hasn't
exactly netted me someone I feel I can turn to short of the Pastor who
is so very busy I don't feel she has a chance to *focus* on a
conversation.

We're going to get your 'best foot forward' if we have to bring a few
gators and personally take over. We shall overcome. Polly


I think a few of those 'gators hitched a ride north with a fair company
-- DH and I went walking around what was left of the county fair
yesterday and one of the things available as a paid attraction was to
go see the 'gators.

Thanks Polly....
Tricia

Julia in MN wrote:
Or if you have a BeautiControl consultant in your area, give her a call.
They also help with wardrobe colors. Department store makeup counters
can also help.

Julia in MN


When I got interested in fabric and learning to sew, I did get books
out of the library for the color selection thing and learned that I am
very definitely a SPRING and am very comfortable with picking
flattering colors for clothes -- that is one that I am fairly well
versed in when seeking business/work clothes. When I "bum around" town
or home I tend to do jeans and any old t-shirt but for work I *can*
dress. The principal where I was teaching called me into her office
one day for a discussion on upgrading my work wardrobe (I was being too
casual in my dress). I went and bought a bunch of things that are very
nice. Some don't fit appropriately anymore due to some weight
gain/redistribution, but some still do. The Sears downstate actually
has a decent ladies/petites department, although none of the pants in
the two piece items fit me (Kate D -- any tips for a newbie on hemming
up tapered slacks?) but I found a nice brand of pants that I could wear
nicely and bought a mixture of colors to fill the gaps.

The nearest dept store is a small JC Penny and this one doesn't have a
make up counter (I went tonight and checked). The Sears outside town
is strictly appliances and manly machines. I'm now starting to look
for others that might be nearby that I dont' know about (I was never
much of a shopper either -- another teen girly thing that just passed
me by).

Thanks Julia,
Tricia

Thanks for the input Georg =) I'm usually very soft hearted when
someone is suggesting products for me to buy, esp if there has been
something I would consider special like a make over or something but
someone else had mentioned the needing to wait to make sure there isn't
a skin reaction and that would be true for me too.

Tricia

Georg wrote:
Tricia wrote:
Hence, realizing I have virtually no knowledge in an area many women
seem to have plenty, I thought I'd ask where that knowledge came
from...where did you learn it?

I learned 75% of my make up expertise in the theater. The rest I picked
up watching my mom or my older sister or my friends.

One learning experience that I can recommend is to go to any make up
counter where someone is paid to offer makeovers. Or call Mary Kay or
Avon and ask them to come to your house for a facial/sample. These
people will be very happy to take the time to teach you how to use their
products. Of course, their goal is to sell you their products- but you
do not have to buy anything.

I still hate wearing make up and only do it very rarely. But I know how
to apply it without a spackling knife or looking weird.

-georg

JustJoanQuilts wrote:
I have always said I don't like
wearing it but in reality, I was just never any good at it so gave up
on it.

That's familiar...thanks for sharing that I'm not alone in this.

Tricia

Kate Dicey wrote:


The make-up stuff is just practice and experimentation, like quilting.
VERY like quilting! You find colours and styles that you like and
experiment until you modify them to suit you, and then you keep doing
them until you get good at it. Then you can slowly modify them again as
you mature/change/whatever...

*snicker* That scares me actually BEG my quilt stuff doesn't look
that good up close either.


I don't, and never have (even as a student teacher!) worn make-up in
school, not since I was a kid and a pupil with faaaaaar too much time on
my hands at boarding school!! No-one ever commented, not wearing it
never lost me a job, and it didn't lose me the respect of colleagues.
But then I always knew who and what I was, what I was doing, and had the
confidence to carry it off. I think it has a lot to do with your sense
of self worth and your self image rather than the war paint as such.

I agree and that's a part of why I don't think it affected me too much
when I was teaching -- I just know I was also dealing with some who
were old school enough that I didn't "look" professional without make
up -- but to be honest, it's only looking back that I think that was
even slightly an issue then. My principal used to have a slight issue
with it until I made it very clear one day in the teachers lunch room
that I was purposely setting an example for our teenage girls that they
didn't need to be spackling themselves (and since make up was against
dress code for the students she seemed to realize what I was doing was
a good thing for our girls).

I have lost a huge chunk of that confidence with the weight gain (being
overweight wasn't ever something I experienced -- I was always
underweight until I had a hormone issue kick in and since....ikes!) and
with being in a new environment. I have had so much work rejection in
the last year, I'm beginning to doubt my worth as a contributing member
of the community.


The weight and the spots may have more to do with it than the lack of
make-up, but again, I suspect your projection of yourself rather than
how you look: if *you* see these as disadvantages, they will be. I
didn't find my excess weight to be a problem in getting a job, but it
might be if it affects your mobility and you get breathless stomping up
stairs. Personally, even if hormonally induced, I wouldn't be
slastering my face with make-up if the spots were on the rampage. I'd
be avoiding it more than ever, and pestering the quack for a solution.

The weight doesn't much effect my mobility (I can't squeeze into tight
spaces anymore but it's not a hinderance on movement) and since I began
a workout program a few months ago, the stairs don't even seem to have
an effect on my asthma these days.


These are about the only times I bother with make-up these days - and
I'm pushing 50! Clear skin and a good moisturiser are far better for
you than an inch of slap! Mind you, I have dark eyes, lashes and
brows, and colour in my cheeks. If you are fair to mousey with lightly
marked brows and not a lot of colour in you, you may find a little
subtle help goes a long way.

Subtle is what I want -- what I can do currently is clownish, looking
very much like someone very inept. I am fair, with freckles, light
eyebrows, glasses (although more stylish than previous pairs --
contacts not an option -- I don't put things in my eyes).
Oh, my face soap of choice is still noxema cream original. I like how
my skin feels in general when I use it.


These days when I do access the war paint, I tend to use a light tinted
moisturiser (I like the Nivea Visage ones), good quality eye make-up
(Clinique, Dior, Guerlaine, and Lancome), and Maybeline or Miners
mascara. For some reason all the 'really good' makes of make-up do
really crap mascara!

I have heard that a lot! (the mascara thing). Does anyone here from
the states know off hand if the Visage is available stateside? When I
did have a little help at the Satin Hands thing with MK, I discovered
that they don't have a liquid foundation near enough to my coloring so
the gal had me order a powder that comes very close -- however, I can't
seem to apply it right or something -- it is always noticable -- I
look, well, dusty (and I try to buff a lot to take most of it off so
it isn't caked on -- at least that's the intent). I think a liquid
would be easier to control.


Just buy a little, some good cleanser that suits your skin, and some
decent brushes (make up artists use sable paint brushes, not 'make-up'
brushes!) and have fun!

Hmm..other than the brushes that come with, I've only ever owned a
separate brush and that's usually been for attempting to apply powder.

Thanks Kate --
Tricia

Taria wrote:
DOn't be afraid of the whole mess.
You might have nailed it right there Taria -- fear! I always wind up
with one of a few select styles when I get my hair cut because I'm
freaked that something will go horribly wrong if I go with something
else. *snicker*

Thanks,
Tricia

Wow! thanks. Okay, I do own (although they are old) eyeshadow in a
nice collection of browns and greens (I have hazel eyes), a brown
eyeliner pencil (somewhere...that one probably does need replacing) and
a lipstick color that honestly is too wrong for my coloring for daily
wear but dramatic for nightwear -- oh, and a nice goldish/peach
lipgloss. I don't even know where to start with my eyebrows. I don't
think they are unruly growth wise -- just extremely light -- except for
the errant dark brown hairs that show up now and then.

Nails are growing the last few years for the first time in my life (the
positive side of the hormone issue). I finally found my nailfile (had
temporarily been using one of those emery boards from a high end hotel
bathroom kit) and curved off the edges last night. They aren't a
uniform length but they appear to be healthy. I rarely polish them
because I usually make a mess with the polish but every so often I try
it.

I got my wardrobe colors good. I'm comfortable with that. I can't
always find what I want but I no longer buy the stuff that really isn't
my coloring anymore -- least not in dress up clothes.

Shoes -- every day wear is a pair of new balance gym shoes (tennis
shoes, whatever they are called nowadays). They were doctor
recommended for support. Dressy I have two pairs of Mushrooms, modest
heel -- navy blue and ivory/cream.

Thanks mini Mini! That was a lot to process....

Tricia

mini Mini wrote:
I learned from my mother & friends mothers, my girlfriends, reading
magazines and practicing to see what I like. I've changed my style over
the years. But basically, I learned
- A little goes a long way
- You have to work with what you have.
- Make up is to enhance not to cover up.

You need four things for day: That's it:
_eyeshadow_ in brown/tan/beige, (depending on how light or dark you
are), ie neutral colors
_eyeliner_ that is a little darker than your eyeshadow (pencil, dont'
get the liquid stuff, that's advanced level!),
_brow pencil or powder_ the color of your brow,
_lipstick_ in a color that is the color of your lips but just a bit
darker.
Use a tiny bit and blend slightly with your fingers.

Get your eyebrows shaped professionally. It is worth the investment. You
will be surprised how much better your eyes look!

Keep yourself neat and tidy.

Take care of your nails. They don't have to be long claws, just clean &
tidy.

Stick with classics and neutral colors: dont' try to be trendy.

Buy the best you can afford in natural fabrics, in your correct size,
get them altered if they don't fit properly. Then take care of them.

Invest in well made leather shoes, and take care of them (keep them
clean & polished). Our feet are much more important than most people
treat them.

Work with what you have: if you have straight hair work with that. If
you have curly hair work with that. It is little use trying to fight it
if you dont' have experience and an investment in lots of product. Keep
your hair clean & tidy. Get a good hair cut and keep it healthy and
tidy. Find a good product for flyaway or dry hair. (but a little goes a
long way. Don't drown your hair in product)

That's it. All my wisdom I impart on you, my child, and you will look a
million dollars! ;o)

I didn't know until the suggestions here that make up people at
department stores did makeovers for free.....of course, I don't spend
much time in department stores *blush*

Thanks for the advice....I got my hair cut last back in mid-June (just
before my grandfather passed) and went from long to a bob between my
chin and my shoulders and the response I got from a lot of people was
really positive. I like the style, I just dont' know how often to have
it cut.

Tricia

Sandy Foster wrote:
In article . com,
"Tricia" wrote:

Hence, realizing I have virtually no knowledge in an area many women
seem to have plenty, I thought I'd ask where that knowledge came
from...where did you learn it?


Tricia, I think you're getting lots of good input here, and I'm just
going to add a little bit to that. I'm the type who doesn't feel dressed
without makeup. G

First, go to a *really* good makeup counter in a big store for a free
make-up lesson. You may have to buy one or two little things (unless
you're stronger than I am g), but it will be worth it. Those gals
really know their stuff. I had a Mary Kay makeover once -- she'd had
next to no training, and it showed. Once you see how the makeup is
applied, you can decide whether to do it exactly the same way or to tone
it down just a bit or to ramp it up a notch. Invest in some little
makeup sponges; they're worth their weight in gold for blending,
blending, blending so you don't get the "clown effect". g

As for your hair, make an appointment with a hair stylist whose work you
admire -- preferably one who has done hair similar to yours. Not
everyone has easily-styled hair (I don't), and you need to learn how to
work with the kind you have. Once you find a style you like and can
maintain (and that your hair will condescend to work with), you can keep
going to whatever hair stylist you've discovered does the best job for
*your* hair.

Good luck! As Polly says, first impressions are so very important. The
lack of makeup doesn't mean you're not a good person, but you only get
that one chance to make a good first impression. People can't help being
swayed by appearances.
--
Sandy in Henderson, near Las Vegas
my ISP is earthlink.net -- put sfoster1(at) in front
http://home.earthlink.net/~sfoster1

AKA Dame Sandy, Minister of Education

Danke!

Tricia

wrote:
This is coming from a "girl" who doesn't often wear any kind of makeup:

I didn't learn (and my teenage years were no more screwed up than
anyone elses - I just was not interested) to wear makeup or do my hair
nicely.

These days, I tie my hair back for work (there are some great
accessories, clips etc out there) and if I'm doing something special I
might get my lashes dyed (I seem to remember that this is not an
(legal) option in the US, but in Europe, it works fine) - that way
there is no self-induced pressure to try to mix mascara with wearing
glasses, I tried that enough to realise it doesn't work for me. Oh, and
slap on some lipstick for special occassions.

Oh well. I do try to pay some attention to wearing clothes that suits
me (when not on vacation at least!), but that is about it.

Other already gave some advice about how you could seek help in
learning. I used to sometimes think about learning, but now it is _way_
down my list of what might make me feel even better about myself, so
for me it is not going to happen anytime soon :-)

Hanne (normally) in London

Pauline wrote:
Well, I concur with some of the other suggestions. If you live in an area
that has department stores, just make a phone call & ask if you can get a
complimentary make up consultation with one of their consultants. Sometimes
a particular make-up company will have a special, but most often, even if
there isn't a special going on, one of the consultants will happily do it
for you. And there shouldn't be any charge for it. They are hopeful that
you'll spend some money, so it's in their best interests. Most of the make
up consultants in department stores are employed by the manufacturer, not
the department store. And don't feel you have to buy everything or anything
from them. I always tell them I need to wear it for the rest of the day to
see if my skin reacts to anything - which is true. If the new product

Thank you for bringing that up. It gives me a ready thing in mind when
I go in there to keep from getting pressured into something that I
could very well regret (for any number of reasons) later on.


Regarding hair - not my strength either - but I try to stay with a fairly
"simple" hairstyle, while still looking stylish. I've always threatened to
move my current hairstylist into my house with me, so they can fix my hair
in the morning. Do as others have suggested - if you see a hairstyle you
like, ask someone where they get their hair done. Take into consideration
if you have fine hair, curly hair, coarse hair, etc. because someone that
has a different texture of hair from yours will end up with a different look
than you. You can also "interview" potential hairstylists to see if you

*how* do you do that -- interview hairstylists? Maybe it's the places
I go but I've never had someone really work with me, well, not true --
one guy one time took one good look at me and just declared he was
going to make me beautiful and did a wonderful job on my hair, helped
me with some basics in hair styling products (small talk by bed head).
However, by teh time I went back (I use annoyance as the main deciding
factor on when to get my hair cut) he had moved on to a better quality
place (I assume) and I couldn't track him down. I hate when I go in
some place regularly and each person who works with my hair gives me
conflicting recommendations on products, etc.

think you will work well together. See what they suggest & explain how it's
a weak area for you, so it needs to be doable for YOU. Sometimes it takes a
few visits for your hairstylist & you to get to a good spot.

I also recommend seeing a dermatologist if your skin is breaking out. Don't
try to "fix" it yourself. You need to see a professional.

New patient appointment is Oct. 20th. I know I probably made it sound
like I was a "pizza face" but in reality it's just a few (half dozen
maybe) spots -- but very noticable and more than I had as a teenager
and they come with my cycle more often than not.


If you're worried about your weight - try to dress in a way that helps to
camoflage the areas you're most concerned about. This is another area where
a good sales person can help you. And remember - you can always return
anything you buy that you have buyers remorse after you get home & try it on
again. You can also return make-up - even to drug stores. (It looked
different when I got it home - it made me break out - it creased in my
eyelids, etc.)

Good luck - you sound like you need a lift & taking it one step at a time
will really help you to feel better about your appearance. Keep us posted!

Pauline

Thanks Pauline, You are right, I do need a lift -- in a big way. I
was in the throes of a really bad bout of PMS this morning when I was
typing (and crying) away, am slightly better now but these are issues
that have been bothering me -- they just don't seem to reach critical
status unless the hormones are wacked.

Tricia