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Soldering



 
 
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  #1  
Old July 3rd 04, 05:46 AM
Jack Schmidling
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Soldering

I have been soldering since about 10 years old but pretty much confined to a
soldering iron.

The problems of attaching gem heads with a torch seem a bit daunting.

My current project is to be-jewel a silver chalice with my faceted and
cabbed stones. On my practice goblet, I have been using Crazy Glue with no
problems other than the fact that they would probably all fall off if I
dropped it.

Could someone point me to some basics on soldering with a torch?

I have silver bearing solder that can be melted with a hot iron but getting
the base hot enough to wet is a bit of a problem.

js


--
PHOTO OF THE WEEK: http://schmidling.netfirms.com/weekly.htm
Astronomy, Beer, Cheese, Gems, Sausage, http://schmidling.netfirms.com



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  #2  
Old July 4th 04, 08:04 AM
ted.ffrater
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

the 1st thing you dont do is attach a gem with a torch, gems are mounted
in settings specifically made for each gem. what type of setting you use
depends on many factors. To find out what these factors are....is the
1st thing you have to do.
The 2nd thing you really need to do is go to your local library and get
out all the books you can on smithing holloware, NOT jewellery making.
Holloware is a different branch of the silver trade and, altho it uses
the same sort of skills there used differently.
you need to read everything in these books as you will find most of the
answers you seek there. and get some idea of the skills you need to perfect.
From what you have told us so far, it appears your completely out of
your depth on a project of this scale.
Sorry to be so blunt but you would need a step by step email course
over at least a year from an experienced hollow silver ware maker to get
anywhere. None of us have the time or patience to devote to such a long
enterprise We all have our own living to make . In this trade it is
normal to take a 7 year apprenticship assuming you have a flair for this
kind of work. As Ive said before, there are 101 things you need to know
and be able to do before youll get the sort of results you want.
If time is no object ,the other thing you should do is go on a course of
hollow ware making , your instructor there will guide you through the
processes you need to learn in order to achieve your desired result.
Is there anything Peter? or Abrasha? ive left out? to show this guy the
size of the mountain he plans to climb??
Terd Frater Dorset UK.


Jack Schmidling wrote:
I have been soldering since about 10 years old but pretty much confined to a
soldering iron.

The problems of attaching gem heads with a torch seem a bit daunting.

My current project is to be-jewel a silver chalice with my faceted and
cabbed stones. On my practice goblet, I have been using Crazy Glue with no
problems other than the fact that they would probably all fall off if I
dropped it.

Could someone point me to some basics on soldering with a torch?

I have silver bearing solder that can be melted with a hot iron but getting
the base hot enough to wet is a bit of a problem.

js




  #3  
Old July 4th 04, 03:32 PM
Jack Schmidling
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"ted.ffrater"

Not again....

From what you have told us so far, it appears your completely out of
your depth on a project of this scale.....


I have been spending hours for years answering random questions on science
and astronomy to readers all over the world. The only people I treat as you
have treated me are students who are obviously too lazy to write a paper and
expect me to do it for them. I usually refer them to the library because
that is the way children learn how to learn.

I am not a child learning how to learn. The internet is a fantastic
resource that nearly makes libraries and encyclopedias obsolete for an
educated adult.

If you are too lazy to answer my questions, don't bother with the lecture
and don't bother pleading for others to back you up.

I retired a millionare many times over at age 40. You may rest assured I
know my depth and how to swim.

There are literally billions of web sites that offer info on just about
anything on earth. All I asked for was some help finding something in this
field. I did not ask you anything and do not appreciate such answers. If
no such web site exists, I will buy books and persue other avenues but you
are no help at all and certainly no asset to this group.

Thanks,

js


--
PHOTO OF THE WEEK: http://schmidling.netfirms.com/weekly.htm
Astronomy, Beer, Cheese, Gems, Sausage, http://schmidling.netfirms.com



  #4  
Old July 4th 04, 03:49 PM
Peter W. Rowe
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Sun, 04 Jul 2004 07:31:59 -0700, in hô Jack Schmidling wrote:

"ted.ffrater"

Not again....

Hi Jack.

good that you took the time to put him down a bit, and did it politely too. I
was tempted myself. But moderators need to stay impartial, after all...

Ted's not a bad sort, just a rather old school european smith with typically
european attitudes about how quickly one can learn this craft. Your post
apparently gave him an overblown impression of how much of a beginner you might
be. Somehow, after looking at your web site, i don't doubt you know more than
you realize, just maybe haven't done it yet... (grin)

Ted's post does have some good starting points, he's just coming at it from a
typically european persepctive on silversmithing, which sometimes tends to make
a deep arcane art which takes years to learn, out of something we here in the
states have sophomore jewelry students doing happily by the end of the second
month of the fall semester... He's right in that real mastery of the craft of
silver smithing on the holloware level takes significant time and energy to
learn well, but I think he forgets just how much even a beginner can learn and
achieve on even the first piece.

In european training, actual holloware, like raising the goblet in the first
place, is considered advanced work, and i think he never quite got past that
point to your real questions about soldering. Plus, he's right about your
initial post suggesting, possibly correctly, that you're a bit of a beginner,
given your reticence to work with a torch (which in the end is easier than an
iron). But I'll disagree with him that it's so hard to learn.

A couple thoughts.

First, while I don't know a good web site that just directly shows you to solder
with a torch, most good jewelry making books will cover it, and jewelry scale
soldering is the same as what you're doing, except you might benefit from a
larger torch, such as the air/acetyelene smith or prestolite torches. Very nice
for silversmithing work with the larger tips, and just what you need for such
things.

Please don't consider using any solder that melts low enough for an iron. Even
the silver bearing ones are just not good strong joints. They DO offer the
advantage of no fire scale or annealing, but thier color match is poor, and once
used, you then cannot use proper silver soldering temps, or many techniques, on
the piece again, as the low melting solders then cause trouble. If you must use
such, consider instead the slightly pricier "TIX" brand. Not sure if it
contains silver, but it's intended for jewelry use, and stays a bit brighter
looking, plus it melts even lower than what you've probably got now. Even with
these solders, you'll have the best luch using a small torch to put the pieces
on.to the goblet. You'll need to be using something like closed back bezels, or
other solid back findings, rather than typical open backed heads, which simply
don't offer enough surface area for the low melting solders to give a useable
joint.

One web site you can go to for some reasearch is the Ganoksin.com site. it's
the home of the Orchid mail list, a far busier discussion site for jewelry
makers and hobbyists, and searching the archives of that site will no doubt find
you some instructional posts on soldering. Look up also, my own discussions on
that site for the use of Prips flux (or misspelled Pripps flux) for how to avoid
the problems with fire scale on silver when hard soldering. There are also many
discussions on best choices of torches, etc.

And if you like feel free to contact me via private email for any additional
pointers or questions you might run into. I'll be happy to help you figure this
out. Sounds like a fun project.

By the way, your web site is inspiring indeed. How do you find the time for
quite so many projects and interests?

Cheers

Peter
  #5  
Old July 5th 04, 08:43 AM
m
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Jack Schmidling wrote:

I have been soldering since about 10 years old
but pretty much confined to a soldering iron.

The problems of attaching gem heads with a
torch seem a bit daunting.

My current project is to be-jewel a silver
chalice with my faceted and
cabbed stones. On my practice goblet, I have
been using Crazy Glue with no problems other
than the fact that they would probably all
fall off if I dropped it.

Could someone point me to some basics on
soldering with a torch?

I have silver bearing solder that can be
melted with a hot iron but getting the base
hot enough to wet is a bit of a problem.

js



http://www.silversmithing.com/
Should have some things that are of help.
General jewlelry links for the rest.
  #6  
Old July 5th 04, 08:44 AM
Leo
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Jack - If you want some inexpensive hands on instruction, check out
www.lapidaryschoolo.org and www.folkschool.org

Otherwise, the first step to learning on your on is Tim McCreight's
book 'The Complete Metalsmith'.

Many community colleges, as well as major colleges & universities,
offer courses in jewelry making. You do not have to be a full time
student to take advantage of these courses.

Find a local rock club and join it. You would be surprised at the
talent and sharing of the members. Look at www.hgms.org

Leo aka Charlie

cfred at hal-pc dot org Yahoo address is a spam trap.
  #7  
Old July 5th 04, 08:44 AM
Don T
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Send him he

http://www.ganoksin.com/server-cgi-bin/iglimpse

--

Don Thompson

~~~~~~~~

"Peter W. Rowe" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 04 Jul 2004 07:31:59 -0700, in hô Jack Schmidling

wrote:

"ted.ffrater"

Not again....

Hi Jack.

good that you took the time to put him down a bit, and did it politely

too. I
was tempted myself. But moderators need to stay impartial, after all...

Ted's not a bad sort, just a rather old school european smith with

typically
european attitudes about how quickly one can learn this craft. Your post
apparently gave him an overblown impression of how much of a beginner you

might
be. Somehow, after looking at your web site, i don't doubt you know more

than
you realize, just maybe haven't done it yet... (grin)

Ted's post does have some good starting points, he's just coming at it

from a
typically european persepctive on silversmithing, which sometimes tends to

make
a deep arcane art which takes years to learn, out of something we here in

the
states have sophomore jewelry students doing happily by the end of the

second
month of the fall semester... He's right in that real mastery of the

craft of
silver smithing on the holloware level takes significant time and energy

to
learn well, but I think he forgets just how much even a beginner can learn

and
achieve on even the first piece.

In european training, actual holloware, like raising the goblet in the

first
place, is considered advanced work, and i think he never quite got past

that
point to your real questions about soldering. Plus, he's right about your
initial post suggesting, possibly correctly, that you're a bit of a

beginner,
given your reticence to work with a torch (which in the end is easier than

an
iron). But I'll disagree with him that it's so hard to learn.

A couple thoughts.

First, while I don't know a good web site that just directly shows you to

solder
with a torch, most good jewelry making books will cover it, and jewelry

scale
soldering is the same as what you're doing, except you might benefit from

a
larger torch, such as the air/acetyelene smith or prestolite torches.

Very nice
for silversmithing work with the larger tips, and just what you need for

such
things.

Please don't consider using any solder that melts low enough for an iron.

Even
the silver bearing ones are just not good strong joints. They DO offer

the
advantage of no fire scale or annealing, but thier color match is poor,

and once
used, you then cannot use proper silver soldering temps, or many

techniques, on
the piece again, as the low melting solders then cause trouble. If you

must use
such, consider instead the slightly pricier "TIX" brand. Not sure if it
contains silver, but it's intended for jewelry use, and stays a bit

brighter
looking, plus it melts even lower than what you've probably got now. Even

with
these solders, you'll have the best luch using a small torch to put the

pieces
on.to the goblet. You'll need to be using something like closed back

bezels, or
other solid back findings, rather than typical open backed heads, which

simply
don't offer enough surface area for the low melting solders to give a

useable
joint.

One web site you can go to for some reasearch is the Ganoksin.com site.

it's
the home of the Orchid mail list, a far busier discussion site for jewelry
makers and hobbyists, and searching the archives of that site will no

doubt find
you some instructional posts on soldering. Look up also, my own

discussions on
that site for the use of Prips flux (or misspelled Pripps flux) for how to

avoid
the problems with fire scale on silver when hard soldering. There are

also many
discussions on best choices of torches, etc.

And if you like feel free to contact me via private email for any

additional
pointers or questions you might run into. I'll be happy to help you

figure this
out. Sounds like a fun project.

By the way, your web site is inspiring indeed. How do you find the time

for
quite so many projects and interests?

Cheers

Peter


  #8  
Old July 5th 04, 08:48 AM
ted.ffrater
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Ahaaa.... Peter, the true moderator,
Thanks for your valuable imput.
Your right, of course, im from the old school of European precious metal
working ,but I like to think im honest with it even if it upsets some of
the people some of the time.
I do stand by my comments tho , about Jack's plans to make a silver
chalice decorated with set stones.
All one can go on in any comment I make is the writers written word,,
so when its said the plan is to set the stones with a torch one has to
assume thats what the enquirer wants to do.
Your comment that a student 2 months into a course could do it is true
also, however it implies that there is a teacher to point the student in
the right direction and that the premises where the teaching /learning
takes place has the correct equipment to do what the student aspires to
make.
Jack on the otherhand is presumably working from home, without the
benefit of a master to guide him so he faces the difficulty of finding
out himself the following.
He has to decidedon the design of the chalice, wether traditional,
medieval, rennaesence or contemporary, he has then to decide what
material to make it from. Having chosen silver, he than has to find out
what techniques he has to learn to put it all together. This then
defines the equipment hell need.
One could of course use soft ie lead tin solder to do this, you know as
well as I do thats not the way to have respect for the material in
question, ie silver, however its for the maker to decide not us, all we
can do is point out the way its allways been done and for what reasons.
I did think of suggesting that Jack makle his chalice out of say pewter,
or copper or even the harder alloy brass, all of these are well suited
to being assembled using soft solder, which hes good at, none the worse
for that, its an honest way if the design takes into account the
techniques needed to make the joints strong enough to stand the test of
time.
Ive been fortunate enough to have done quite a lot of restoration work
on brass and copper liturgical work which was made just that way.
To hard solder silver, where the solder melting temperature is over
600Deg. Centigrade is a different ball game alltogether. Relatively easy
on say a ring shank, but to join a thin rub over setting onto a chalice
body requires a great deal of knowhow, the right technique the right
equipment and fluxes. also the use of anti fire scale coatings. the
days of using reducing atmosphere charcoal brazier heating are long gone.
One just doesnt want to say to the enquirer , yes, go ahead get a
torch, itl be ok, and find that seveal chalices later its all gone wrong
and we get blamed for it.
I ll stand up and be counted on the point that its going to be really
difficult for Jack to get the results he wants without a lot of research
,experimentation, and technical exenditure on his part. I can assure you
both Its nothing personal.
Let me put it this way,
My hobby is hang gliding, its flying like in other aircraft, I need to
know similar skills, air law, meterology , flight rules ans so on, also
im still here so im reasonably good at it. but if I asked to fly say a
Cessna 2 seater, or something bigger, and a much more experienced pilot
said Im way out of my depth to even try without doing all the research
and training needed, id have to accept his word or pay the penalty if
Iscrewed it all up..
Ted Frater Dorset UK.







Peter W. Rowe wrote:
On Sun, 04 Jul 2004 07:31:59 -0700, in hô Jack Schmidling wrote:


"ted.ffrater"

Not again....


Hi Jack.

good that you took the time to put him down a bit, and did it politely too. I
was tempted myself. But moderators need to stay impartial, after all...

Ted's not a bad sort, just a rather old school european smith with typically
european attitudes about how quickly one can learn this craft. Your post
apparently gave him an overblown impression of how much of a beginner you might
be. Somehow, after looking at your web site, i don't doubt you know more than
you realize, just maybe haven't done it yet... (grin)

Ted's post does have some good starting points, he's just coming at it from a
typically european persepctive on silversmithing, which sometimes tends to make
a deep arcane art which takes years to learn, out of something we here in the
states have sophomore jewelry students doing happily by the end of the second
month of the fall semester... He's right in that real mastery of the craft of
silver smithing on the holloware level takes significant time and energy to
learn well, but I think he forgets just how much even a beginner can learn and
achieve on even the first piece.

In european training, actual holloware, like raising the goblet in the first
place, is considered advanced work, and i think he never quite got past that
point to your real questions about soldering. Plus, he's right about your
initial post suggesting, possibly correctly, that you're a bit of a beginner,
given your reticence to work with a torch (which in the end is easier than an
iron). But I'll disagree with him that it's so hard to learn.

A couple thoughts.

First, while I don't know a good web site that just directly shows you to solder
with a torch, most good jewelry making books will cover it, and jewelry scale
soldering is the same as what you're doing, except you might benefit from a
larger torch, such as the air/acetyelene smith or prestolite torches. Very nice
for silversmithing work with the larger tips, and just what you need for such
things.

Please don't consider using any solder that melts low enough for an iron. Even
the silver bearing ones are just not good strong joints. They DO offer the
advantage of no fire scale or annealing, but thier color match is poor, and once
used, you then cannot use proper silver soldering temps, or many techniques, on
the piece again, as the low melting solders then cause trouble. If you must use
such, consider instead the slightly pricier "TIX" brand. Not sure if it
contains silver, but it's intended for jewelry use, and stays a bit brighter
looking, plus it melts even lower than what you've probably got now. Even with
these solders, you'll have the best luch using a small torch to put the pieces
on.to the goblet. You'll need to be using something like closed back bezels, or
other solid back findings, rather than typical open backed heads, which simply
don't offer enough surface area for the low melting solders to give a useable
joint.

One web site you can go to for some reasearch is the Ganoksin.com site. it's
the home of the Orchid mail list, a far busier discussion site for jewelry
makers and hobbyists, and searching the archives of that site will no doubt find
you some instructional posts on soldering. Look up also, my own discussions on
that site for the use of Prips flux (or misspelled Pripps flux) for how to avoid
the problems with fire scale on silver when hard soldering. There are also many
discussions on best choices of torches, etc.

And if you like feel free to contact me via private email for any additional
pointers or questions you might run into. I'll be happy to help you figure this
out. Sounds like a fun project.

By the way, your web site is inspiring indeed. How do you find the time for
quite so many projects and interests?

Cheers

Peter

  #9  
Old July 5th 04, 08:50 AM
Jack Schmidling
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Peter W. Rowe"

Ted's post does have some good starting points....


As a probably unintended point, I was not even aware of the term holloware
so that enhanced my search greatly.

But I'll disagree with him that it's so hard to learn.


There is the old joke about rocket science and sausage making. It's all
sausage making if you know how to do it.

Please don't consider using any solder that melts low enough for an

iron.....

Perhaps, I have a reason that did not occur even to me as I get into this.

I can not find and am not ready to make a silver chalice of the sort I want
at a price that I can justify, at least for a practice piece. So, I am sort
of forced to consider plated brass or some other material.

From my experience so far with a plated pewter cup, the silver beads up and
the finding melted half way through the cup before I realized what was
happening. I was using a torch that was too big for the job and thought the
material was brass.

It now seems intuitive that I will have to use low temp solder, make a mess
and gold plate the finished cup.

Even the silver bearing ones are just not good strong joints.....


From my experience with solder, one would have to get rather violent to
knock off a finding soldered this way. Surely, it or the stone would be
damaged before the joint would fail and it's gotta be better than super
glue.

Even with these solders, you'll have the best luch using a small torch to

put the pieces
on.to the goblet.


Well, that is the way I am headed but one of my unasked questions is dealing
with the problem of heating only the area to be soldered so all the previous
joints don't fall off. I noticed in a McMaster catalog some sort of heat
sink paste that I guess I could surround the setting with. Is this a
useful approach?

One web site you can go to for some reasearch is the Ganoksin.com

site.....

Been there.

the home of the Orchid mail list, a far busier discussion site for jewelry
makers........


Didn't notice the list.

And if you like feel free to contact me via private email for any

additional
pointers or questions you might run into. I'll be happy to help you

figure this
out.


Thanks but I presume aside from Ted, there might be other beginners
interested in the discussion.

By the way, your web site is inspiring indeed. How do you find the time

for
quite so many projects and interests?


That's one of the reasons I "retired" at age 40. I don't have time for a
real job.

js


--
PHOTO OF THE WEEK: http://schmidling.netfirms.com/weekly.htm
Astronomy, Beer, Cheese, Gems, Sausage, http://schmidling.netfirms.com



  #10  
Old July 5th 04, 09:16 AM
Peter W. Rowe
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On , in ô Jack Schmidling wrote:

I can not find and am not ready to make a silver chalice of the sort I want
at a price that I can justify, at least for a practice piece. So, I am sort
of forced to consider plated brass or some other material.

From my experience so far with a plated pewter cup, the silver beads up and
the finding melted half way through the cup before I realized what was
happening. I was using a torch that was too big for the job and thought the
material was brass.


There are VAST differences between the three materials: Silver, pewter, or
brass. Silver stands out in that it is one of the best heat conductors there
is. The consequence of that is that soldering a joint without heating the whole
thing is often quite difficult. Normally, the proper method is to heat the
entire piece, not trying to isolate just the area being soldered. In addition
to assisting with solder flow, this also avoids some problems uneven heating can
cause with warping. With silver solders (real ones, not the tin/silver alloys),
because alloy materials dissipate a little into the parent metal each time the
solder is melted in a joint, and more, the longer it's held there, the solder
joints tend to raise their own melting point. With care, and the avoidance of
using too much solder, previous joints don't generally fall apart when doing
subsequent joints. heat sink compounds or simple things like painting a layer
of yellow ocher (essentially just dirt...) over previous joints also helps to
avoid such problems. With larger pieces, one needent always try to heat the
whole thing, but one still needs to generally heat a larger area than just the
joint in question.

Brass, while it can be soldered at close to the same temps as silver (not quite,
but close) is a much poorer heat conductor. So while heating just locally to
affect a joint is much easier, it also means uneven heating is much more likely
to cause distortion and warping. Also note that the addition of brass to silver
lowers it's melting point (It's how you make silver solder). So joining brass
with silver solder can be tricky, since there is a tendancy, as the silver
diffuses into the brass upon melting, for the amount of molten metal to quickly
increase beyond the original volume of silver solder. It can, as a result, be a
somewhat treacherous metal to silver solder, especially for beginners.

Pewter is essentially tin. So if you're soldering it, the appropriate solders
are indeed the tin/silver alloys, or tin/lead alloys if you prefer. Stay brite
brand works quite well. You can use an iron or a torch, but tin, even more than
brass, does not conduct heat easily, so a small torch can be easier to get heat
the the joint. the heat from an iron doesn't well travel beyond the contact
point. Very tiny flames, such as the little torch with a small tip, can be used
to good effect with pewter, and one can also easily weld it, just by melting
chips of pewter down into a seam, without added solder. Again, the
small/miniature torches work well. The smallest tip on a prestolite is also
very good for this work.. Pewter is also unique in that it does not work harden
with cold working. in fact, it actually gets solfter the more you work it. So
beginning work in holloware goes quite quickly with the pewter. Couple the
speed with which it can be formed, with the neat ability to shape forms by
techniques such as cutting "darts" out of the form, much like in sewing,
bringing the cut edges together (bending the form) and just welding it up again,
also greatly increases one's options. After welding, a little light hammering
of the weld to smooth it out and even up the thickness, and it can be totally
indistinquishable from the original metal.


From my experience with solder, one would have to get rather violent to
knock off a finding soldered this way. Surely, it or the stone would be
damaged before the joint would fail and it's gotta be better than super
glue.


The trouble experienced depends on the type of setting, and how one is setting
the stone itself. The pressures of pushing over and burnishing a bezel might
remove a small bezel soldered to silver with tin solder. The same bezel tin
soldered to pewter, though, would hold just fine. However, you probably, if
you're carefull, can use the low melting solders. It's just not as good a
joint, so be sure the item being soldered has sufficient surface area. you are
correct that super glues are not normally a decent option. But even this
statement can have it's exceptions. If, for example, the finding was a closed
back bezel cup, sanded quite flate after the stone was pre set in the cup, and
the chalice had a matched spot also flattened well, so there was a good fit over
a decent surface area, then perhaps super glue, or one of the higher tech
versions of the cyanoacrylate glues (some of which are used in assembling
aircraft wings, for example, so one knows they CAN be strong) would work well.
This would allow presetting the stones before affixing to the chalice, which
might offer some advantages. The joint strength likely wouldn't be as good, or
as long lasting, as solders, but much would depend on the preperation of the
joint, and the choice of the exact glue used. Some modern adhesives are amazing
things.

I noticed in a McMaster catalog some sort of heat
sink paste that I guess I could surround the setting with. Is this a
useful approach?


Sometimes. Not normally really needed, if the previous joints are done well.
If only the barely needed amount of solder is used, so that upon reheating the
part doesn't actually float on the solder, you'd find the part would normally
prefer to remain just where it is rather than moving or falling off.



the home of the Orchid mail list, a far busier discussion site for jewelry
makers........


Didn't notice the list.


The you missed the biggest gem of the ganoksin site. much, or most, of the
valuable info available on the site is in the archives of the orchid list
discussions. The mail list itself is very busy, getting normally in the range
of 50 posts per day. much more than rec.crafts.jewelry (good thing for me...)


Thanks but I presume aside from Ted, there might be other beginners
interested in the discussion.


there may well be, and it's public now. To be honest, my post was actually
intended to be a private email to you in the first place. hit the wrong
button....

Peter
 




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