Help with polishing argentium silver

Hello

I have tumble polished a few batches of things and was very pleased
with my results.........until the last batch that is.

It came out more tarnished, almost like it was coated with copper. I
can think of a few things that I did differently, but don't know where
to start. (Maybe everything.)

The batch was mainly some argententian wire settings that I soldered
for some irregularly shaped tiny geodes. (From looking at them, it is
easy to see that I started as a wire wrapper.)

Possible thing I can think of:

1. Instead of Dawn, I accidentally put in a squirt of Palmolive Oxy.

2. I put them all back into the pickle pot. Not much help. I will
make up a new batch of pickle.

3. We have well water. it sometimess smellss of sulphur. - Thiss
wasn't a problem before, but I will use distilled water next time.

4. There were 2 small pieces of copper wire in the batch that I had
experimented with soldering and forgot to take out.

That's it. I am going to restart everything, but I don't know if this
batch is salvageable.

If I knew what out of this lit made it happen, then it would be a
cheap way to oxidize argenteum silver.

Linda

On Nov 29, 4:57 pm, gloflyer wrote:
Hello

I have tumble polished a few batches of things and was very pleased
with my results.........until the last batch that is.

It came out more tarnished, almost like it was coated with copper. I
can think of a few things that I did differently, but don't know where
to start. (Maybe everything.)

The batch was mainly some argententian wire settings that I soldered
for some irregularly shaped tiny geodes. (From looking at them, it is
easy to see that I started as a wire wrapper.)

Possible thing I can think of:

1. Instead of Dawn, I accidentally put in a squirt of Palmolive Oxy.

2. I put them all back into the pickle pot. Not much help. I will
make up a new batch of pickle.

3. We have well water. it sometimess smellss of sulphur. - Thiss
wasn't a problem before, but I will use distilled water next time.

4. There were 2 small pieces of copper wire in the batch that I had
experimented with soldering and forgot to take out.

That's it. I am going to restart everything, but I don't know if this
batch is salvageable.

If I knew what out of this lit made it happen, then it would be a
cheap way to oxidize argenteum silver.

Linda

Hello Linda,


I think your problem comes from using the Palmolive Oxy. You are
creating a plating solution which is taking the copper and depositing
it on the Argentium silver.

Do not use DI or Distilled water as contrary to popular belief they
are strong solvents. If you are unsure about your drinking water
supply use bottled drinking water in your tumbler. For info. I have
used Joy for tumbling but it may not be different from Dawn.

Peter

Well, I don't know what is in Palmolive Oxy so that's no help. You may want
to avoid tumbling it with copper. Have you tumbled something with
patina/liver of sulphur on it? I've heard that liver of sulpher will turn
silver grey, but I think you are saying that it is copper colored now? It
wasn't copper colored when it came out of the pickle?

Probably time to clean your tumbler and shot.

--
Connie Ryman
Cryman Studio

"gloflyer" wrote in message
...
Hello

I have tumble polished a few batches of things and was very pleased
with my results.........until the last batch that is.

It came out more tarnished, almost like it was coated with copper. I
can think of a few things that I did differently, but don't know where
to start. (Maybe everything.)

The batch was mainly some argententian wire settings that I soldered
for some irregularly shaped tiny geodes. (From looking at them, it is
easy to see that I started as a wire wrapper.)

Possible thing I can think of:

1. Instead of Dawn, I accidentally put in a squirt of Palmolive Oxy.

2. I put them all back into the pickle pot. Not much help. I will
make up a new batch of pickle.

3. We have well water. it sometimess smellss of sulphur. - Thiss
wasn't a problem before, but I will use distilled water next time.

4. There were 2 small pieces of copper wire in the batch that I had
experimented with soldering and forgot to take out.

That's it. I am going to restart everything, but I don't know if this
batch is salvageable.

If I knew what out of this lit made it happen, then it would be a
cheap way to oxidize argenteum silver.

Linda

"gloflyer" wrote in message
...
Hello

I have tumble polished a few batches of things and was very pleased
with my results.........until the last batch that is.

It came out more tarnished, almost like it was coated with copper. I
can think of a few things that I did differently, but don't know where
to start. (Maybe everything.)

The batch was mainly some argententian wire settings that I soldered
for some irregularly shaped tiny geodes. (From looking at them, it is
easy to see that I started as a wire wrapper.)

Possible thing I can think of:

1. Instead of Dawn, I accidentally put in a squirt of Palmolive Oxy.

2. I put them all back into the pickle pot. Not much help. I will
make up a new batch of pickle.

3. We have well water. it sometimess smellss of sulphur. - Thiss
wasn't a problem before, but I will use distilled water next time.

4. There were 2 small pieces of copper wire in the batch that I had
experimented with soldering and forgot to take out.

That's it. I am going to restart everything, but I don't know if this
batch is salvageable.

If I knew what out of this lit made it happen, then it would be a
cheap way to oxidize argenteum silver.

Linda

I'm fairly new at this but have heard that if you don't completely remove
binding wire before pickling it will lead to copper plating.
is there any chance that your well water has any iron in it?
If it does and a small particle of iron touched the piece during pickling
then this should explain it.
I hope this helps

Ceri )

On Sun, 02 Dec 2007 11:14:10 -0800, in rec.crafts.jewelry "Ceri Jones"
wrote:


I'm fairly new at this but have heard that if you don't completely remove
binding wire before pickling it will lead to copper plating.
is there any chance that your well water has any iron in it?
If it does and a small particle of iron touched the piece during pickling
then this should explain it.
I hope this helps

yes, but pickling and tumble polishing, the latter process being what's under
discussion here, are entirely different processes.

First, yes, you're correct, that if you pickle jewelry after soldering (etc),
and still have the iron binding wire on, or if you use steel tweezers to hold
the work in the pickle, then you can have copper deposited on your work. Here's
what happens. The acid pickle solution is generally being used to remove the
oxides from your metal after soldering. Most of those oxides are copper oxides,
so the result is that the pickle, as it's used, gets a bunch of dissolved copper
sulphate in it. This causes no harm in normal use. But if you introduce a
piece of iron, or any metal more chemically reactive than copper into the
solution, AND ITS IN ELECTRICAL CONTACT with your jewelry piece, which must be
made of a metal less reactive than copper for this, such as silver or gold, then
what happens is you have created an electrolytic cell, like a battery, which
generates a small electric potential between the jewelry and the liquid solution
and the steel, and this causes a small bit of the steel to dissolve, while
simultaneously electroplating copper out on the jewelry. The result is then a
fuss and a bother to clean up. In order for this to happen, the steel or iron
(or for that matter, tin, pewter, lead, etc) needs to be still in it's metallic
form, not already dissolved, and it needs to be in contact with the precious
metal. Already dissolved iron in the pickle, or iron contaminating the water,
etc, does not create this electrical potential, so in general, it does not cause
problems. Also note that for copper plating to happen, there has to already be
copper in solution in the pickle, such as is the case with well used pickle. A
newly mixed pickle solution has no copper in solution, so it does not plate out
copper even if you have iron in the pickle. (This is useful to remember, since
pickle does dissolve iron, so when you break off a drill bit in your metal,
fresh pickle can be used to remove it without damage to the precious metal)

In the situation descrobed by the poster, first off, the process is different.
Tumbling is done with steel shot already, so the question of iron contaminating
the water is moot. But it's also done with alkaline soaps as lubricants, which
do not form the iron salts, or cause iron to dissolve, so the potential
formation of electrolytic potential isn't there. And though there's iron
involved, there isn't any already dissolved copper in the solution, and the
alkaline solution doesn't dissolve the iron (or copper), so no plating takes
place through this mechanism.

However, the alkaline soaps do still create some chemical possibilities, notably
allowing things like tarnishing or discoloration if things didn't start out
clean, and then there's the simple mechanical process of tumbling. If you
tumble a soft piece of copper, some tiny particles of copper are removed. If
there is then silver in the mix too, it's possilbe some of the copper will be
litterally rubbed into the silver, both from those particles being burnished in
by the steel shot, and by collision between the silver and copper. And the
tumbling environment can do strange things with existing oxides and tarnish
layers, sometimes transferring or altering them in unexpected ways.

But iron contamination of the water used, is an unlikely possibility for the
problem.

Peter

"Peter W.. Rowe," wrote in message
...
On Sun, 02 Dec 2007 11:14:10 -0800, in rec.crafts.jewelry "Ceri Jones"
wrote:


I'm fairly new at this but have heard that if you don't completely remove
binding wire before pickling it will lead to copper plating.
is there any chance that your well water has any iron in it?
If it does and a small particle of iron touched the piece during pickling
then this should explain it.
I hope this helps

yes, but pickling and tumble polishing, the latter process being what's
under
discussion here, are entirely different processes.

First, yes, you're correct, that if you pickle jewelry after soldering
(etc),
and still have the iron binding wire on, or if you use steel tweezers to
hold
the work in the pickle, then you can have copper deposited on your work.
Here's
what happens. The acid pickle solution is generally being used to remove
the
oxides from your metal after soldering. Most of those oxides are copper
oxides,
so the result is that the pickle, as it's used, gets a bunch of dissolved
copper
sulphate in it. This causes no harm in normal use. But if you introduce
a
piece of iron, or any metal more chemically reactive than copper into the
solution, AND ITS IN ELECTRICAL CONTACT with your jewelry piece, which
must be
made of a metal less reactive than copper for this, such as silver or
gold, then
what happens is you have created an electrolytic cell, like a battery,
which
generates a small electric potential between the jewelry and the liquid
solution
and the steel, and this causes a small bit of the steel to dissolve, while
simultaneously electroplating copper out on the jewelry. The result is
then a
fuss and a bother to clean up. In order for this to happen, the steel or
iron
(or for that matter, tin, pewter, lead, etc) needs to be still in it's
metallic
form, not already dissolved, and it needs to be in contact with the
precious
metal. Already dissolved iron in the pickle, or iron contaminating the
water,
etc, does not create this electrical potential, so in general, it does not
cause
problems. Also note that for copper plating to happen, there has to
already be
copper in solution in the pickle, such as is the case with well used
pickle. A
newly mixed pickle solution has no copper in solution, so it does not
plate out
copper even if you have iron in the pickle. (This is useful to remember,
since
pickle does dissolve iron, so when you break off a drill bit in your
metal,
fresh pickle can be used to remove it without damage to the precious
metal)

In the situation descrobed by the poster, first off, the process is
different.
Tumbling is done with steel shot already, so the question of iron
contaminating
the water is moot. But it's also done with alkaline soaps as lubricants,
which
do not form the iron salts, or cause iron to dissolve, so the potential
formation of electrolytic potential isn't there. And though there's iron
involved, there isn't any already dissolved copper in the solution, and
the
alkaline solution doesn't dissolve the iron (or copper), so no plating
takes
place through this mechanism.

However, the alkaline soaps do still create some chemical possibilities,
notably
allowing things like tarnishing or discoloration if things didn't start
out
clean, and then there's the simple mechanical process of tumbling. If you
tumble a soft piece of copper, some tiny particles of copper are removed.
If
there is then silver in the mix too, it's possilbe some of the copper will
be
litterally rubbed into the silver, both from those particles being
burnished in
by the steel shot, and by collision between the silver and copper. And
the
tumbling environment can do strange things with existing oxides and
tarnish
layers, sometimes transferring or altering them in unexpected ways.


Just as an aside to Peter's excellent reply:

When burnishing metals it is a well known characteristic of the process for
the metal being burnished to take on the color of the burnishing tool,
especially if the tool is even slightly softer than the piece being
burnished. That is why jewelers burnishing tools are made of very hard white
metals and often are plated with Chromium.

--

Don Thompson

Stolen from Dan: "Just thinking, besides, I watched 2 dogs mating once,
and that makes me an expert. "

There is nothing more frightening than active ignorance.
~Goethe

It is a worthy thing to fight for one's freedom;
it is another sight finer to fight for another man's.
~Mark Twain

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~