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Silver supplier question



 
 
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  #1  
Old May 22nd 08, 02:55 AM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
Paul K. Dickman
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 7
Default Silver supplier question

I have a question that the group may be able to answer.

I am currently pricing a commission for a fairly complex set of Shabbat
candlesticks. It is still in the design by committee stage, but it involves
hammered silver reflectors.

Originally the reflectors were a series of curved plates 3"x10".

In as much as maintaining reflectivity was important. I suggested using
Argentium silver. With such a high silver price, the premium is a much
smaller percentage of the cost and it seemed like an ideal application.

Then the designed changed. The reflectors were now a few plates 6"x10".

"No problem", I sez, "I can use standard 6" wide Argentium sheets".

Now that the customers are all hyped up on Argentium, they decide they want
the reflectors 8"x10".

My question is:
Does any know if someone is producing Argentium sheets in wider widths?
Preferably here in the states.

There are some creases in the reflectors where I can hide a seam, if I have
to, but I would really rather not have to solder 2-8" joints in each panel.

Paul K. Dickman


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  #2  
Old May 22nd 08, 03:01 AM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
Peter W.. Rowe,
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 355
Default Silver supplier question

On Wed, 21 May 2008 18:55:00 -0700, in rec.crafts.jewelry "Paul K. Dickman"
wrote:


In as much as maintaining reflectivity was important. I suggested using
Argentium silver. With such a high silver price, the premium is a much
smaller percentage of the cost and it seemed like an ideal application.


You might ask Cindy Eid, a frequent participant on the Orchid list, if she knows
of a source you can use. I don't, not in an 8 inch width.

However, you might also consider changing the metal to be fine silver for the
reflectors. It shares with Argentium silver the freedom from the level of
oxidation/tarnish/fire stain found with standard sterling. Fine silver is
indeed a bit softer, but if you've work hardened it by hammering, and since this
is essentially a decorative/cerimonial object rather than something getting
heavy wear and tear like worn jewelry, the softer metal shouldn't be such a big
concern. And for sheer reflectivity, fine silver is the best there is...

I'm guessing that you'd have an easier time finding a source for wide fine
silver sheet, since any silver supplier who had wide enough mills could make it
up for you, while finding it in Argentium means finding a supplier who's
actually carrying that trademarked and patented (I think) product. That's
likely a much smaller pool of suppliers.

Hope that's of use.

Peter
  #3  
Old May 22nd 08, 04:54 PM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
William Black
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 77
Default Silver supplier question


"Paul K. Dickman" wrote in message
...
I have a question that the group may be able to answer.

I am currently pricing a commission for a fairly complex set of Shabbat
candlesticks. It is still in the design by committee stage, but it
involves
hammered silver reflectors.

Originally the reflectors were a series of curved plates 3"x10".

In as much as maintaining reflectivity was important. I suggested using
Argentium silver. With such a high silver price, the premium is a much
smaller percentage of the cost and it seemed like an ideal application.

Then the designed changed. The reflectors were now a few plates 6"x10".

"No problem", I sez, "I can use standard 6" wide Argentium sheets".

Now that the customers are all hyped up on Argentium, they decide they
want
the reflectors 8"x10".

My question is:
Does any know if someone is producing Argentium sheets in wider widths?
Preferably here in the states.

There are some creases in the reflectors where I can hide a seam, if I
have
to, but I would really rather not have to solder 2-8" joints in each
panel.


If you can't get them in the USA then any of the big UK bullion suppliers
will make them, for a price...

--
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.



  #4  
Old May 22nd 08, 04:55 PM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
Paul K. Dickman
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 7
Default Silver supplier question


"Peter W.. Rowe," wrote in message
...
On Wed, 21 May 2008 18:55:00 -0700, in rec.crafts.jewelry "Paul K.
Dickman"
wrote:


In as much as maintaining reflectivity was important. I suggested using
Argentium silver. With such a high silver price, the premium is a much
smaller percentage of the cost and it seemed like an ideal application.


You might ask Cindy Eid, a frequent participant on the Orchid list, if she
knows
of a source you can use. I don't, not in an 8 inch width.

However, you might also consider changing the metal to be fine silver for
the
reflectors. It shares with Argentium silver the freedom from the level of
oxidation/tarnish/fire stain found with standard sterling. Fine silver is
indeed a bit softer, but if you've work hardened it by hammering, and
since this
is essentially a decorative/cerimonial object rather than something
getting
heavy wear and tear like worn jewelry, the softer metal shouldn't be such
a big
concern. And for sheer reflectivity, fine silver is the best there is...

I'm guessing that you'd have an easier time finding a source for wide fine
silver sheet, since any silver supplier who had wide enough mills could
make it
up for you, while finding it in Argentium means finding a supplier who's
actually carrying that trademarked and patented (I think) product. That's
likely a much smaller pool of suppliers.

Hope that's of use.

Peter


Unfortunately, all the curves and creases on the reflectors are in one
direction. The cross section perpendicular to these is essentially flat
sheet. Then they get hinged together into a large triptych and the candle
holders get hung off these panels.

Structurally, it is like three sheets of fanfold computer paper with a brick
taped to the bottom of each sheet.

All the planishing in the world, won't make fine silver stiff enough.

I'll poke my head over to the Orchid list. I think I met Cynthia at a
workshop back when I was in college.

I'll joint the sheets if I have to.

Paul K. Dickman



  #5  
Old May 23rd 08, 02:53 AM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
Bob
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 14
Default Silver supplier question

On May 21, 6:55=A0pm, "Paul K. Dickman" wrote:
I have a question that the group may be able to answer.

I am currently pricing a commission for a fairly complex set of Shabbat
candlesticks. It is still in the design by committee stage, but it involve=

s
hammered silver reflectors.

Originally the reflectors were a series of curved plates 3"x10".

In as much as maintaining reflectivity was important. I suggested using
Argentium silver. With such a =A0high silver price, the premium is a much
smaller percentage of the cost and it seemed like an ideal application.

Then the designed changed. The reflectors were now a few plates 6"x10".

"No problem", I sez, "I can use standard 6" wide Argentium sheets".

Now that the customers are all hyped up on Argentium, they decide they wan=

t
the reflectors 8"x10".

My question is:
Does any know if someone is producing Argentium sheets in wider widths?
Preferably here in the states.

There are some creases in the reflectors where I can hide a seam, if I hav=

e
to, but I would really rather not have to solder 2-8" joints in each panel=

..

Paul K. Dickman


Paul:

Why not just buy a heavier gauge argentium sheet, if you can find
somebody with a wide-enough mill to roll it to size for you? That
would certainly be easiest. You might even get one of the current
suppliers of Argentium to do it on a contract basis.

Or if your reflectors are curved surfaces, stretch the sheet on an
english wheel. Last resort would be to forge it out yourself --
doable, but tedious in that size -- might be a little easier with a
sand bag and sheet-metal style panel beaters, though.

Regards,

Bob
  #6  
Old May 23rd 08, 02:53 AM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
ted frater
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 133
Default Silver supplier question

William Black wrote:
"Paul K. Dickman" wrote in message
...

I have a question that the group may be able to answer.

I am currently pricing a commission for a fairly complex set of Shabbat
candlesticks. It is still in the design by committee stage, but it
involves
hammered silver reflectors.

Originally the reflectors were a series of curved plates 3"x10".

In as much as maintaining reflectivity was important. I suggested using
Argentium silver. With such a high silver price, the premium is a much
smaller percentage of the cost and it seemed like an ideal application.

Then the designed changed. The reflectors were now a few plates 6"x10".

"No problem", I sez, "I can use standard 6" wide Argentium sheets".

Now that the customers are all hyped up on Argentium, they decide they
want
the reflectors 8"x10".

My question is:
Does any know if someone is producing Argentium sheets in wider widths?
Preferably here in the states.

There are some creases in the reflectors where I can hide a seam, if I
have
to, but I would really rather not have to solder 2-8" joints in each
panel.



If you can't get them in the USA then any of the big UK bullion suppliers
will make them, for a price...


I second W.Black's advice.
I went to to Cookson metals Birmingham.
I needed sheet 15in wide by 15in long by 1/8th in thick.
No problem. they said.
Also for making 500 silver coins, I needed 7 kilos of fine silver
sheet in 7in by 7in by 1/8th in.
This time the best source was Englehard industries plating anodes.
Cheapest way to get it.
If your stuck Ill source it for you for a charge.
Ted frater
dorset UK
  #7  
Old May 24th 08, 03:17 AM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
Paul K. Dickman
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 7
Default Silver supplier question


"William Black" wrote in message
...


If you can't get them in the USA then any of the big UK bullion suppliers
will make them, for a price...

--
William Black


There's the rub.

I figure that the jointing and moderate waste from falloff it will cost an
extra 400 USD for me to joint together the 30 oz of silver.

That's 200 GBP.

By the time you add up custom rolling, paperwork, duty and shipping, it
might break even

Paul K. Dickman


  #8  
Old May 24th 08, 03:17 AM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
Paul K. Dickman
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 7
Default Silver supplier question


"Bob" wrote in message
...
Paul:

Why not just buy a heavier gauge argentium sheet, if you can find
somebody with a wide-enough mill to roll it to size for you? That
would certainly be easiest. You might even get one of the current
suppliers of Argentium to do it on a contract basis.

Or if your reflectors are curved surfaces, stretch the sheet on an
english wheel. Last resort would be to forge it out yourself --
doable, but tedious in that size -- might be a little easier with a
sand bag and sheet-metal style panel beaters, though.

Regards,

Bob


I talked to a couple of my suppliers who have 12" rolls and sell Argentium.

They told me they could reroll some materials but this wasn't one of them.

I was only talking to customer service reps, not the techs. So I do not know
if a licensing issue, a contamination issue or whether there is some thing
intrinsic in the alloy that precludes cross rolling.

The reflectors do not have any compound curves. I could stretch it in the
hammer work, but I would have to add at least 1/3 to the area.

That would be a whole lot of hammering.

Paul K. Dickman


  #9  
Old May 24th 08, 06:02 PM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
William Black
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 77
Default Silver supplier question


"Paul K. Dickman" wrote in message
...

"William Black" wrote in message
...


If you can't get them in the USA then any of the big UK bullion suppliers
will make them, for a price...

--
William Black


There's the rub.

I figure that the jointing and moderate waste from falloff it will cost an
extra 400 USD for me to joint together the 30 oz of silver.

That's 200 GBP.

By the time you add up custom rolling, paperwork, duty and shipping, it
might break even


Well I'm a big fan of Cookson's Precious Metals, they're not cheap but
they'll do just about anything you ask. I have to say that I'm also a big
fan of walking around that part of Birmingham and seeing what I can get done
in the multitude of small specialist jewellery/silversmithing workshops that
throng the Jewellery Quarter there.

But I always spend far too much money in the tool suppliers...

My favourite memory of Cookson's is going into the front counter there and
seeing a chap pick up a lump of 22 carat gold that was about an inch square
and two feet long, swing it up onto his shoulder, it was obviously a heavy
lump, and walk out and off up the street...

--
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.



  #10  
Old May 25th 08, 04:08 AM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
Bob
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 14
Default Silver supplier question

On May 23, 7:17=A0pm, "Paul K. Dickman" wrote:
I talked to a couple of my suppliers who have 12" rolls and sell Argentium=

..

They told me they could reroll some materials but this wasn't one of them.=



I was only talking to customer service reps, not the techs. So I do not kn=

ow
if =A0a licensing issue, a contamination issue or whether there is some th=

ing
intrinsic in the alloy that precludes cross rolling.

The reflectors do not have any compound curves. I could stretch it in the
hammer work, but I would have to add at least 1/3 to the area.

That would be a whole lot of hammering.

Paul K. Dickman


Interesting, but puzzling. You would think, if the material can be
hammer-forged, it could also be rolled....

Do you know anyone with a power hammer? That, at least, might make
the stretching bearable.

Regard,

Bob

 




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