I would like to make my own Sterling and Argentium Metals... Is this possible ?

I currently possess a large number of pure silver bars (500 oz's) and
a LOT of pure copper. Can I combine (using a proper scale) the proper
weights and make my own Jewellry grade silver in a crucible ? I've
seen many a link where this is being done, but I have never spoken
with anyone who has "Actually done it".

Is the process more difficult than it looks ? Is making a strip sheet
of sterling or argentium even possible without foundry type tools ?

Are there other metals that one can produce in a shop environment ?

Some Tools / supplies currently on hand:

-Kiln (very soon)
-Oxy/Ace Torch
-MAPP / Propane
-Small crucibles
-Stainless Steel, Carbon Plates, etc...
-Lots of silver, Copper, Bronze, Brass, Steel, etc...

Cheers,

/FC

On Sun, 02 Mar 2008 23:00:29 -0800, in rec.crafts.jewelry Jman
wrote:

I currently possess a large number of pure silver bars (500 oz's) and
a LOT of pure copper. Can I combine (using a proper scale) the proper
weights and make my own Jewellry grade silver in a crucible ? I've
seen many a link where this is being done, but I have never spoken
with anyone who has "Actually done it".

Is the process more difficult than it looks ? Is making a strip sheet
of sterling or argentium even possible without foundry type tools ?

Are there other metals that one can produce in a shop environment ?

Sure. lots of gold alloys, in particular, are fairly easy to alloy on one's
own. Often, jewelers buy the premade alloys, without the precious metal, to
save the work of the precision mixing of the more volatile componants, remxing
it only then with the required gold to get the needed result. With silver, it's
simpler. Since standard sterling silver is only silver and copper (7.5 percent
copper by weight), it's easy enough to make it up on your own. The main trick
is controlling oxidation, so the resulting ingot you pour is solid, rather than
shot through with bubbles and included oxides and the like. This takes some
care and skill, but it's not technically complex. Making an ingot from which
you'll roll wire or pour shot for casting is somewhat simpler to get good
results than an ingot which you expect to roll into good quality sheet metal,
since small bubbles or blisters in a wire ingot tend to form threadlike
impurities down the center of the wire, where it causes little harm, while the
same blisters/bubbles in a sheet ingot roll out into wider blisters which, when
annealed give you bubbles and defects in the sheet that DO matter. Poor quality
shot for casting can often be fixed when you again melt in, perhaps in smaller
quantities, for casting, and then, defects often tend to float, staying in the
sprue or button. Well, not always, but defects in castings like you'd get are
common enough when you use purchased shot, since they form just as easily during
the melt for casting as when you made the original alloy.

Argentium, however, is a proprietary alloy. You buy it. You're not supposed to
infringe on the patent holders alloy recipe, and they don't sell it as a
"master" alloy to which you'd add silver. No doubt they'd trade you fine silver
for argentium, if you deal with a metals dealer who also buys metal as well as
selling it, as most do...

Peter

Some Tools / supplies currently on hand:

-Kiln (very soon)
-Oxy/Ace Torch
-MAPP / Propane
-Small crucibles
-Stainless Steel, Carbon Plates, etc...
-Lots of silver, Copper, Bronze, Brass, Steel, etc...

Cheers,

/FC

Jman wrote:
I currently possess a large number of pure silver bars (500 oz's) and
a LOT of pure copper. Can I combine (using a proper scale) the proper
weights and make my own Jewellry grade silver in a crucible ? I've
seen many a link where this is being done, but I have never spoken
with anyone who has "Actually done it".

Is the process more difficult than it looks ? Is making a strip sheet
of sterling or argentium even possible without foundry type tools ?

Are there other metals that one can produce in a shop environment ?

Some Tools / supplies currently on hand:

-Kiln (very soon)
-Oxy/Ace Torch
-MAPP / Propane
-Small crucibles
-Stainless Steel, Carbon Plates, etc...
-Lots of silver, Copper, Bronze, Brass, Steel, etc...

Cheers,

/FC

Assuming youve got the suitable kiln, crucible tongs etc,
in your tool list to fail to mention the following youll also need.
For casting 3/8th in diarod youll need either a 2 part cast iron mould
or a casting tray .
this has long grooves in it for casting rod.
also youll need the cast iron moulds for casting the slab ingots that
are the precourrser to making sheet.
also youll need a rolling mill for the sheet, and a 2 ton draw bench
and draw plates suitable to draw down from the 3/8th in dia rod.
Tho some will say you can break down this larger size in a rolling mill
specially designed for this task.
Have fun.
there are lots of wrinkles in casting oxide free bar and rod.
Thats for later when youve found out theres more to casting silver
than you realised.

Jman wrote:
I currently possess a large number of pure silver bars (500 oz's) and
a LOT of pure copper. Can I combine (using a proper scale) the proper
weights and make my own Jewellry grade silver in a crucible ? I've
seen many a link where this is being done, but I have never spoken
with anyone who has "Actually done it".

Is the process more difficult than it looks ? Is making a strip sheet
of sterling or argentium even possible without foundry type tools ?

Alloying is fun for small quantities.
If you have only a hand rolling mill, it
could take a _lot_ of time and strength to hammer
and roll out 500 ounces! It takes me most of
a day to make a little sheet.

There is almost certainly a better way to use your time.
Perhaps you should just process it to use in castings, or
trade most of it in to a metal dealer for the kind of sheet
you want. But keep a bit of the silver on hand for
making little sheets of fun stuff like
shibuichi.


Are there other metals that one can produce in a shop environment ?

Some Tools / supplies currently on hand:

-Kiln (very soon)
-Oxy/Ace Torch
-MAPP / Propane
-Small crucibles
-Stainless Steel, Carbon Plates, etc...
-Lots of silver, Copper, Bronze, Brass, Steel, etc...

Cheers,

/FC

On Mar 3, 10:09=A0am, mbstevens wrote:

Alloying is fun for small quantities.
If you have only a hand rolling mill, it
could take a _lot_ of time and strength to hammer
and roll out 500 ounces! =A0It takes me most of
a day to make a little sheet.

There is almost certainly a better way to use your time.
Perhaps you should just process it to use in castings, or
trade most of it in to a metal dealer for the kind of sheet
you want. =A0But keep a bit of the silver on hand for
making little sheets of fun stuff like
shibuichi.



Sorry for the confusion,

I purchased the silver as an investment. 4 of the bars are 100oz
bricks w/ serial #'s so I won't be using those for now..(although I
suppose I could..)
I looked into the price of sterling sheet and almost 'sheet' my pants
once I saw what the dealers wanted for those tiny sheets of silver.
With the prices they were asking for sterling, I figured I could put a
LOT of time and labour in to making my own. Especially seeing as how
inexpensively I bought my bars of fine silver !

In addition to the larger bricks, I do have about 250 oz's in smaller
quantities and many of them are 1 and 10 oz's bars. I figured these
would be 'perfect' for melting down with some copper to make sterling,
or something in between (if that's recommended). I'm just not clear
on what I do with the silver once I have it melted. I figured that I
would need a rolling mill, but I wasn't sure what to do between the
crucible and the rolling, etc....

- If I were to add more silver and less copper to the melt, would that
help much with the tarnishing, or would I be better off just merely
melting the fine silver and using that instead ?
- Any suggestions as to a good source for producing ones own silver /
gold etc... ?

BTW, I Googled "Shibuichi"....WOW, that looks very cool indeed. I had
no idea there were so many different colors you could achieve with
such subtle changes in silver and gold...
Pretty amazing really.

Cheers,

/FC

On Mar 3, 1:13=A0am, Ted Frater wrote:

=A0 Have fun.
=A0 there are lots of wrinkles in casting oxide free bar and rod.
=A0 Thats for later =A0when youve found out theres more to casting silver
than you realised.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Yes, you are definitely correct... I am slowly coming to that
realization now.

I thought this was interesting....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-MeyzYxOM2c&NR=1

Looks like a graphite mould. I suppose the graphite would help with
the oxidization wouldn't it ?
The Rolling machine looks pretty expensive.

Cheers,

/FC

"Peter W.. Rowe," wrote in
:

Argentium, however, is a proprietary alloy. You buy it. You're not
supposed to infringe on the patent holders alloy recipe, and they
don't sell it as a "master" alloy to which you'd add silver. No doubt
they'd trade you fine silver for argentium, if you deal with a metals
dealer who also buys metal as well as selling it, as most do...



Peter, an information on whether the specific alloy used in 'Argentium'
is or can be patented, copyrighted, trademarked other than if used in
conjuction with the trademarked name Argentium?

--
Saint Séimí mac Liam
Carriagemaker to the court of Queen Maeve
Prophet of The Great Tagger
Canonized December '99

On Mon, 03 Mar 2008 23:01:04 -0800, in rec.crafts.jewelry "Séimí mac Liam"
wrote:


Peter, an information on whether the specific alloy used in 'Argentium'
is or can be patented, copyrighted, trademarked other than if used in
conjuction with the trademarked name Argentium?

I assume you meant "any information..." in order to make it a question...

The answer is no, I don't know the exact details. Only that the alloy was
developed by one specific firm, and any others who distribute it are licensed or
something by them, to do so. I don't know whether only the name is trademarked
or whether the alloy itself is patented or what. There are a number of silver
alloys sold as fire-scale free or anti-oxidation versions of sterling, by a
number of companies. Each seems a bit different from the others. One of the
first of them is the fire stain free sterling marketed by United Precious
Metals. It too is proprietary, according to their web site. Argentium is a bit
different in that it's made to quite specifically have the needs of hand
craftsmanship in mind, rather than being mainly intended as a casting alloy (as
the UPM versions is). More than that, I don't know, since frankly, I do little
enough work in silver that I'm happy just using the old standard standby of
traditional sterling. You could search up the info as easily as I can. Either
google the whole net, or search the archives on Ganoksin for other more
targetted info.

Peter

On Mon, 03 Mar 2008 23:00:31 -0800, in rec.crafts.jewelry Jman
wrote:

Looks like a graphite mould. I suppose the graphite would help with
the oxidization wouldn't it ?

Ingots, 101

Graphite molds are usually "open faced". They produce a shape like a little
loaf of bread, or a similar block with a convex irregular top surface. That's
quite difficult to directly turn into sheet metal. Fine for making little
ingots which you just wish to store or something, but impractical for making
wire or sheet metal.

Also, pouring into a graphite mold, especially the small ones, is hard to get
uniform metal because the graphite is an extraordinarily good heat sink. The
metal freezes almost on contact with it. The more commonly used cast iron or
steel molds don't chill the metal so fast, so you get a more even pour. They
are normally used with a film of soot or oil, both of which make the surface
"reducing" and non-stick in nature, so the metal is not oxidized by contact with
the mold. Even without treatment, any mold surface like this will chill the
metal quickly enough, as well as not allowing oxygen to contact the surface
where it touches the mold, so oxidation next to the mold isn't an issue. Ingots
poured into steel molds, like those poured into graphite ones, often come out
bright and clean. The main advantage to the graphite molds is that metal
doesn't stick at all, and they require no pretreatment.

Wire is commonly made by pouring a long rod shaped ingot, rolling this through
grooved rollers to reduce it's size down to a manageable size, and then further
shaped and reduced by pulling through drawplates. As Ted's post mentioned, if
you've got a big and powerful enough drawbench, you can eliminate the initial
rolling stage for wire, but most people making wire start with a wire rolling
mill. Either way, the ingot to use needs to start out as a long rod shape. There
are two types of ingot mold used. For small ingots, one can get a steel
vertical mold that amounts to two plates clamped together with holes drilled
down along the boundry between them. metal poured into the holes can be removed
when the plates are seperated, yielding a round bar. The same molds also often
have another side which can produce a flat sided plate. That type of mold,
called a sliding ingot mold because the width is adjustable, can be set so the
flat plate is the same width as it's depth, effectively yeilding a bar with
square cross section. This too can be worked into wire. In both cases, these
ingots are limited in legth to the height of the ingot mold, which is usually
four or five inches or so, meaning it's good for small ingots. For longer bars,
one uses an open faced mold which amounts to a long milled groove in a steel
bar. Metal is poured into that groove, runs down it, and solidifies into a long
bar shape. These are less uniform than the first type, and can be a bit more
troublesome to roll or otherwise process into wire, especially with alloys like
silver where the top exposed surface of the bar during pouring is not only
irregular in thickness, but often quite oxidized. Still, it works.

Sheet metal, as suggested above, is made from flat sided ingots which are
usually made in a few inches wide or more, and equally long, or more, depending
on the size of the mold used. The thickness of the plates in most small molds
comes in between an 1/8th of an inch to a 1/4 or an inch or so. These flat
ingots may be irregular at one end, where the mold was open, but the rest of the
surfaces are nice and uniform if the pour was good, and these are then rolled
down to flat sheet in the rolling mill. Without a rolling mill, you can do it
the old and slow way. Forging with a hammer. That takes skill, large muscles,
lots of endurance, and a lot of time. But it does offer you the chance to make
sheet metal that varies in thickness from one part of the sheet to another. Not
normally useful for jewelry, it's valuable for some metalworkers, such as those
making medeival style armor...

Large industrial producers of sheet metal don't use these small molds. Instead,
they cast ingots that look more like the public image, ie a brick shaped block.
These then go to a milling machine where the raw faces of the ingot are milled
off to produce a machined square and flat sided uniform block of metal. These
then can be rolled down into quite large sizes of sheet metal in industrial
sized rolling mills.

The Rolling machine looks pretty expensive.

Yes, good ones are. The cheapest little Chinese or Indian made ones start
around 250 or so, but these are good only for light duty work. If you're
planning on rolling a lot of sheet metal, especially in anything other than
quite small sizes, expect to pay upwards of a thousand for a good, larger sized
flat rolling mill. And by larger size, I mean four or five inches wide. More
than that ups the price a lot more, very quickly. about the widest available
hand powered flat rolling mill I've seen is around six inches wide, and most
such mills are more like 5 inches wide. For most craftspeople making jewelry,
this is quite enough (even the much smaller ones are enough for most jewelers).
But silversmiths often like to work with larger sheets of silver, up to a foot
wide, sometimes more. That's pretty much the realm of the big industrial sized
power driven rolling mills. And yes, those are costly. Usually way out of the
reach of any individual craftsman, though sometimes you'll see a very used one
in surplus sales somewhere...

cheers

Peter