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Happiness is



 
 
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  #201  
Old October 14th 08, 01:05 AM posted to rec.crafts.textiles.needlework
val189
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 85
Default Happiness is

On Oct 7, 8:50 pm, Jangchub wrote:
That said,
there are many other issues I have with McCaine. His love for and
hugging of Bush is enough. Then the nukular came out. I was done.


She said nukular, but you can't even get his name right. No E at the
end, Vic.
Ads
  #202  
Old October 14th 08, 01:09 AM posted to rec.crafts.textiles.needlework
Dr. Brat
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 803
Default Happiness is

Jangchub wrote:

On Sat, 11 Oct 2008 12:33:09 -0700 (PDT), wrote:


which ASIAN ideals do you want to adopt ??? Asia is an Enormous
Continent !!!! Bobbie tells us that in Japan Young people of both
genders respect each other , but on other ASIAN countries women are
stoned if they smile to a another man , Thieves hands are cut off ,
As a woman you can be smacked for not covering your hair ,,,, etc.....
When you same Some of the Asian Ideas ,, you better specify
which ....ps your Budihism , is also coming from Asia ,,, As came the
roots of Chritianity , etc,,,
mirjam

Bethleham is in Asia? Israel is in Asia? Where in Asia do they wear
a Birka? India? That's overpopulation and what you get from it. You
aren't Asian so best to keep your yap shut.
Victoria


Victoria ,,
I advise you to open AN ATLAS [ you know that book with World maps ,}
and look carefully where Asia is ???? Did you find it ,,,,,, good on
the west side of Asia there is a very tiny country on the beach of the
Mediterenean and it is called Israel ,,,,IN ASIA !!!! now in Israel
there is a place called BETH LEHEM , where Jesus was born ,,,,,,
As to Burka [not Birka] , it is worn in many countries [ mainly Iran
Iraq, Pakistan ,,but not in India ,,, Killing women for FAMILY HONOR
happens not only in countries where they are forced to wear a
Burkah ,,, but why Bother with facts , when you already think you know
everything.... Bedouin woman that don`t don`t wear a Burkah are also
killed for `honor`,,,
mirjam



The world does not consider Israel as Asian. Get off it. You are in
what the entire world refers to as the Middle East. You are not
Asian. Your eyes are not slanty. Once again you took what I said in
a literal sense and twisted it.


The world DOES consider the Middle East to be Asian. And not all Asians
have slanty eyes! Indians, Pakistanis, Sri Lankans, to name but just a
few are Asian.

Elizabeth
--
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~living well is the best revenge~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
The most important thing one woman can do for another is to illuminate
and expand her sense of actual possibilities. --Adrienne Rich
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
  #203  
Old October 14th 08, 01:11 AM posted to rec.crafts.textiles.needlework
Dr. Brat
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 803
Default Happiness is

Jangchub wrote:

NObody thinks of Israel as Asia merely
because it is on the tip of the continent.


I do.

Elizabeth
--
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~living well is the best revenge~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
The most important thing one woman can do for another is to illuminate
and expand her sense of actual possibilities. --Adrienne Rich
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
  #204  
Old October 14th 08, 01:13 AM posted to rec.crafts.textiles.needlework
Gill Murray
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Posts: 626
Default Happiness is



Dr. Brat wrote:
Jangchub wrote:

On Sat, 11 Oct 2008 12:33:09 -0700 (PDT), wrote:


which ASIAN ideals do you want to adopt ??? Asia is an Enormous
Continent !!!! Bobbie tells us that in Japan Young people of both
genders respect each other , but on other ASIAN countries women are
stoned if they smile to a another man , Thieves hands are cut off ,
As a woman you can be smacked for not covering your hair ,,,, etc.....
When you same Some of the Asian Ideas ,, you better specify
which ....ps your Budihism , is also coming from Asia ,,, As came the
roots of Chritianity , etc,,,
mirjam


Bethleham is in Asia? Israel is in Asia? Where in Asia do they wear
a Birka? India? That's overpopulation and what you get from it. You
aren't Asian so best to keep your yap shut.
Victoria


Victoria ,,
I advise you to open AN ATLAS [ you know that book with World maps ,}
and look carefully where Asia is ???? Did you find it ,,,,,, good on
the west side of Asia there is a very tiny country on the beach of the
Mediterenean and it is called Israel ,,,,IN ASIA !!!! now in Israel
there is a place called BETH LEHEM , where Jesus was born ,,,,,,
As to Burka [not Birka] , it is worn in many countries [ mainly Iran
Iraq, Pakistan ,,but not in India ,,, Killing women for FAMILY HONOR
happens not only in countries where they are forced to wear a
Burkah ,,, but why Bother with facts , when you already think you know
everything.... Bedouin woman that don`t don`t wear a Burkah are also
killed for `honor`,,,
mirjam




The world does not consider Israel as Asian. Get off it. You are in
what the entire world refers to as the Middle East. You are not
Asian. Your eyes are not slanty. Once again you took what I said in
a literal sense and twisted it.



The world DOES consider the Middle East to be Asian. And not all Asians
have slanty eyes! Indians, Pakistanis, Sri Lankans, to name but just a
few are Asian.

Elizabeth

And my dear DIL HAS slanty eyes, and is from Japan, which is the other
side of Asia from Israel. Still Asian!!
Gillian
  #205  
Old October 14th 08, 01:19 AM posted to rec.crafts.textiles.needlework
Dr. Brat
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 803
Default Happiness is

Jinx Minx wrote:


Although YOU may not consider Israelis "Asian" by
"race", the rest of the (more enlightened) world does. Ask ANY Israeli,
Pakistani, or (East) Indian what "race" they are, and they will all answer
Asian. My daughter, by the way, is not Israeli.


Ok, I need to quibble with this. Israel is in Asia, but not all
Israelis are Asian. The Ashkanazy are quite definitely European.

Elizabeth
--
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~living well is the best revenge~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
The most important thing one woman can do for another is to illuminate
and expand her sense of actual possibilities. --Adrienne Rich
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
  #206  
Old October 14th 08, 01:22 AM posted to rec.crafts.textiles.needlework
Trish Brown
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 464
Default Asian or not Asian was Happiness is

I don't want to argue with anyone, but I thought maybe some of the words
being used might have different meanings to different posters. Here's
what I understand them to mean and maybe it might be a starting point to
clearing up the disagreements? Only hoping to clarify - not wanting to
hop into the debate, OK?

The continent of Asia is very large. It stretches from the Far East to
Europe and from the Arctic circle to to tip of the Malay Peninsula. It
comprises many ethnic groups and is the most diverse of all the
continents. There are the mongoloid peoples of the Far East, for
example. These people have uniformly black hair and pronounced
epicanthic folds which make their eyes appear 'slanted' as folk
literature used to say. (I have to add here that my daughter also has
pronounced epicanthic folds - no one knows why - but she's of 100%
Celtic ethnicity. Go figger!) Anyway, the term 'mongoloid' does *not*
refer to someone who has Down Syndrome, it's an anthropological term
that groups the people whose descent is from the tribes of central Asia
- Genghis Khan and his mob.

Asia also contains people of caucasian ethnicity. That means, their
distant ancestors are thought to have originated in the Caucasus
mountains in Russia. These folk have fair skin and their hair colour
varies widely. Rudolf Nureyev was a Tatar - a race that shares common
features with the people of Mongolia and Manchuria. That's why he had
that *scrumptious* exotic look! (Well... *I* liked it very much: may he
rest in peace!)

There are other peoples in Asia as well. The semitic people of the
Middle East, the turkic peoples, the malay folk and the people who
originated in the Indus valley, whose racial origins are so old and so
diverse. I don't know nearly as much about all this as I want to, but
the point is that the word 'Asian' covers a vast number of people and,
by *far* the vastest number of people on the globe.

Lumping the mongoloid races together and calling them 'Asian' as an
umbrella term isn't really polite. I'm sure their vastly different views
of themselves, their cultures and philosophies should allow them the
dignity of seeing themselves as separate peoples in this modern age.
Likewise, divorcing the caucasian and other races from their proper
asiatic status isn't very polite either. While it may not fit a western
person's *idea* of what's Asian and what's not, the people in question
certainly view themselves as being Asian and have been viewed as such by
the rest of the world since before Galileo!

The status of the peoples from Central America confuses me as (not
living in that part of the world), I have little to go on. All I do know
is that the two continents, North and South America, comprise yet
another diversity of cultures. I assume the Central Americans would
count themselves as South American, but have really no idea. Can anyone
enlighten me please?

Oh, one last thing. AFAIK, the term 'oriental' is exactly the one that
refers to the people of the mongoloid races. I've never heard of it
being offensive in any way and have Chinese and Malaysian friends who
use it in reference to themselves (as in: 'that's just me going all
oriental again!') I'd be interested to hear from any oriental person who
does find it offensive so I can learn why. IME, 'oriental' is simply the
opposite of 'occidental' and carries no other slur...?

If anything I've written here is incorrect, then please do correct me!
I'm always interested in getting it right! LOL!

HTH,

--
Trish Brown {|:-}

Newcastle, NSW, Australia
  #207  
Old October 14th 08, 01:23 AM posted to rec.crafts.textiles.needlework
Dr. Brat
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 803
Default Happiness is

Jangchub wrote:

[snipped]

Oh I don't think so. If we had to give a race to Israeli people it
would be caucsaian. It's the middle east. First you said your
daughter is Asian, now you say she isn't Israeli. What does that have
to do with this debate? I am not enlightened and there is no such
thing as "more enlightened." You either are, or aren't. What do you
call Arabs; Asians? By your debate angle, all N. Americans would be
considered N. American. I wonder what the tens of millions of
Mexican's would say about that.

Mexico is in North America, Vic.

[snip]

The people who I love the most are from China, Tibet, Nepal, and
Bhutan, India, etc. They are all called Asian. I said nothing about
"slanty eyes." That was your slanader.


No, actually, you said "slany eyes" before anyone else did. Go look.

One last thing, I am part Russian and wouldn't call myself Asian in
any shape, way or manner. I am caucasian with Russian and Italian
descent.


Russians aren't Asian.

Elizabeth
--
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~living well is the best revenge~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
The most important thing one woman can do for another is to illuminate
and expand her sense of actual possibilities. --Adrienne Rich
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
  #208  
Old October 14th 08, 01:36 AM posted to rec.crafts.textiles.needlework
Dr. Brat
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 803
Default Asian or not Asian was Happiness is

Trish Brown wrote:

Lumping the mongoloid races together and calling them 'Asian' as an
umbrella term isn't really polite. I'm sure their vastly different views
of themselves, their cultures and philosophies should allow them the
dignity of seeing themselves as separate peoples in this modern age.
Likewise, divorcing the caucasian and other races from their proper
asiatic status isn't very polite either. While it may not fit a western
person's *idea* of what's Asian and what's not, the people in question
certainly view themselves as being Asian and have been viewed as such by
the rest of the world since before Galileo!


My colleague from Sri Lanka calls himself Asian.

The status of the peoples from Central America confuses me as (not
living in that part of the world), I have little to go on. All I do know
is that the two continents, North and South America, comprise yet
another diversity of cultures. I assume the Central Americans would
count themselves as South American, but have really no idea. Can anyone
enlighten me please?


Mexico is North America, south of there to Colombia is Central America,
which culturally and historically is not South America, but Central America.

Oh, one last thing. AFAIK, the term 'oriental' is exactly the one that
refers to the people of the mongoloid races. I've never heard of it
being offensive in any way and have Chinese and Malaysian friends who
use it in reference to themselves (as in: 'that's just me going all
oriental again!') I'd be interested to hear from any oriental person who
does find it offensive so I can learn why. IME, 'oriental' is simply the
opposite of 'occidental' and carries no other slur...?


In the United States, "Oriental" is considered impolite, although I'm
not really clear on why. I suspect it's because it means Eastern and
that direction only works from a Euro-centric point of view. If you're
in Asia, it's not to the east, is it?

Elizabeth
--
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~living well is the best revenge~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
The most important thing one woman can do for another is to illuminate
and expand her sense of actual possibilities. --Adrienne Rich
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
  #209  
Old October 14th 08, 02:03 AM posted to rec.crafts.textiles.needlework
Lucille[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,234
Default Asian or not Asian was Happiness is


"Trish Brown" wrote in message
...
I don't want to argue with anyone, but I thought maybe some of the words
being used might have different meanings to different posters. Here's what
I understand them to mean and maybe it might be a starting point to
clearing up the disagreements? Only hoping to clarify - not wanting to hop
into the debate, OK?

The continent of Asia is very large. It stretches from the Far East to
Europe and from the Arctic circle to to tip of the Malay Peninsula. It
comprises many ethnic groups and is the most diverse of all the
continents. There are the mongoloid peoples of the Far East, for example.
These people have uniformly black hair and pronounced epicanthic folds
which make their eyes appear 'slanted' as folk literature used to say. (I
have to add here that my daughter also has pronounced epicanthic folds -
no one knows why - but she's of 100% Celtic ethnicity. Go figger!) Anyway,
the term 'mongoloid' does *not* refer to someone who has Down Syndrome,
it's an anthropological term that groups the people whose descent is from
the tribes of central Asia - Genghis Khan and his mob.

Asia also contains people of caucasian ethnicity. That means, their
distant ancestors are thought to have originated in the Caucasus mountains
in Russia. These folk have fair skin and their hair colour varies widely.
Rudolf Nureyev was a Tatar - a race that shares common features with the
people of Mongolia and Manchuria. That's why he had that *scrumptious*
exotic look! (Well... *I* liked it very much: may he rest in peace!)



The only thing I would correct is that Nureyev should RIP. He was a great
dancer but he scared my friends teenage son ****less when he made a pass at
him at a party and wouldn't take no for an answer. He finally left Lewis
alone when they convinced him that he was only 17 and was jailbait.
According to Lewis, he was drunk as a skunk and really obnoxious.

The poor kid, who was doing some modeling to make college money, wanted to
quit the business but his agency talked him out of it and promised he
wouldn't have to attend any of those wild parties anymore.

Lucille




There are other peoples in Asia as well. The semitic people of the Middle
East, the turkic peoples, the malay folk and the people who originated in
the Indus valley, whose racial origins are so old and so diverse. I don't
know nearly as much about all this as I want to, but the point is that the
word 'Asian' covers a vast number of people and, by *far* the vastest
number of people on the globe.

Lumping the mongoloid races together and calling them 'Asian' as an
umbrella term isn't really polite. I'm sure their vastly different views
of themselves, their cultures and philosophies should allow them the
dignity of seeing themselves as separate peoples in this modern age.
Likewise, divorcing the caucasian and other races from their proper
asiatic status isn't very polite either. While it may not fit a western
person's *idea* of what's Asian and what's not, the people in question
certainly view themselves as being Asian and have been viewed as such by
the rest of the world since before Galileo!

The status of the peoples from Central America confuses me as (not living
in that part of the world), I have little to go on. All I do know is that
the two continents, North and South America, comprise yet another
diversity of cultures. I assume the Central Americans would count
themselves as South American, but have really no idea. Can anyone
enlighten me please?

Oh, one last thing. AFAIK, the term 'oriental' is exactly the one that
refers to the people of the mongoloid races. I've never heard of it being
offensive in any way and have Chinese and Malaysian friends who use it in
reference to themselves (as in: 'that's just me going all oriental
again!') I'd be interested to hear from any oriental person who does find
it offensive so I can learn why. IME, 'oriental' is simply the opposite of
'occidental' and carries no other slur...?

If anything I've written here is incorrect, then please do correct me! I'm
always interested in getting it right! LOL!

HTH,

--
Trish Brown {|:-}

Newcastle, NSW, Australia



  #210  
Old October 14th 08, 03:26 AM posted to rec.crafts.textiles.needlework
Jinx Minx
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 124
Default Happiness is


"Jangchub" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 13 Oct 2008 13:01:39 -0500, "Jinx Minx"
wrote:


I'm not Buddha, never said I was. Frustrated, not angry. Profanity?
A word I hear every day all the time? Hmmm. I don't wear white
gloves, sorry. Asian is a race of people. Israeli's are not part of
the Asian race. It is not just geography, there is an entirely
different culture which Asian RACE people have. Since you are
filtering me, so long. If you recall, the argument was Mirjam telling
me I was sub-human for having compassion for the pilots who drove into
the Twin Towers. Nobody says that to me without at least a heated
debate. Again, so long, I'm sorry, have a good life.

Victoria



Good lord, child, this is some of the most offensive diatribe I've ever
seen. My daughter doesn't have "slanty eyes" and has nothing in common
with your "Asian culture", yet she's every bit as "Asian" as someone from
China or Japan. When it comes time for her to apply for colleges and
jobs,
just what "race" box do you suggest she mark on her applications?


If she wants to mark her race she'd mark it as Asian. MY Asian
culture? Huh? So if she's as Asian as anyone else in Japan or China,
and if she was born of Asian raced parents, she'd be Asian. IN ASIA,
the culture is much superior to our American ineptitude and to
understand most of their concepts. There's also a box she can check
if she doesn't want to mark her race down. What did I say about YOUR
daughter or "slanty eyes?" That was your term.


No, slanty eyes is not my term. You told Mirjam she wasn't Asian because
she didn't have slanty eyes. Whether my daughter opts for the "choose not
to respond" checkbox is irrelevant to the point at hand.

I seriously want to know. Although YOU may not consider Israelis "Asian"
by
"race", the rest of the (more enlightened) world does. Ask ANY Israeli,
Pakistani, or (East) Indian what "race" they are, and they will all answer
Asian. My daughter, by the way, is not Israeli.


Oh I don't think so. If we had to give a race to Israeli people it
would be caucsaian. It's the middle east.


"If we had to give a race to Israeli people"?? What the hell kind of
bull**** is that?! Are they born raceless? And who are YOU to decide they
would be caucasian?! That's absolutely priceless!! LMAO

First you said your
daughter is Asian, now you say she isn't Israeli. What does that have
to do with this debate?


By example, it has everything to do with this debate, which just further
proves how much you don't "get" it.

I am not enlightened and there is no such
thing as "more enlightened." You either are, or aren't.


Oh, ok---more "philosophically mature".

What do you
call Arabs; Asians? By your debate angle, all N. Americans would be
considered N. American.


Another example of how clueless you are. North American isn't a race,
which is the discussion at hand.

I wonder what the tens of millions of
Mexican's would say about that. They are Latino and even If a
Latino/Latina were born in N. America, including Mexico they'd still
be Mexican decent, and if I said that to any Mexican friend of mine
they'd agree. There are probably 140,000 Mexican people living in my
city of 600,000 people. I think I know Mexican people. My friend
Gloria is a PhD at UT and she teaches sociology. She's brilliant,
Buddhist, way farther along the path than I and she sees herself as
indigenous Mexican. Further, in her research there may be something
to say about before he continents divided that, indigenous Mexican
peoples have perhaps a bit of Asian features. Some Mexican people
look Tibetan, even to our resident Geshe (a monk who has a PhD in
Buddhist theology after spending 23 years of studying and memorizing
more texts than I've read in my entire life).

You're only proving my point, not yours.

How do you define who belongs to the "caucasian" race or the "African
American" race for that matter? And why do Americans get to define it
for
the rest of the world? "Race" encompasses more than just physical
characteristics and color. Furthermore, your "Asian culture" isn't a
singular way of being. Chinese "culture" is different from Japanese, is
different from Vietnamese is different from Tibetan. Ethnocentric
attitudes
like yours are exactly why the rest of the world hates us. And burkas
don't come from "overpopulation".

Jinx


Are you kidding me? You don't know how I'd be able to determine
caucasian from African (talking about people of color now, not the
caucasians from Africa, then they are caucasians, so yes of course by
color. Are you one of those who say you don't see color? Sorry, I
see color and there is something very offensive about saying you can't
see differences. When differences are okay to see, the world will
change.


I never, ever said or even hinted that I don't see color differences. And I
probably know a lot more about them than you.

I've heard people calling Asians from China, Japan, etc.
"oriental" and that is offensive to them. Oriental refers to objects,
not people. American Asians call themselves Asians. Israeli's call
themselves Israeli, not Asian so this discussion is so ridiculous I
can't believe I am in it still.


Hey, you started the discussion on what constitutes Asian race and culture,
not anyone else. Yes, Israelis call themselves Israeli because of
citizenship or culture, but it isn't their "race". Mirjam and I have had
our differences, but how dare you tell her she's not Asian because YOU
define it so!!

Further, I will go out on the limb
and say there are quite possibly more Israeli's in America, New York
in particular, than there are in Israel.


So what? That doesn't have anything to do with anything.

Oh wait, my mother is a Jew. Does that make me Israeli? I mean
Asian. I mean, what do I mean? Give me a break.


What a clueless **** you are. Give US a break.

Culturally speaking, China, Japan, let's call it the Pacific Rim
(sheesh), they do have somewhat similar customs or should I say
traditions where we have a big blotch of ill fated BS (so your tender
eyes won't see a commonly used word in slang all across the land).


I don't have tender eyes. I couldn't give a f* what words you use as long
as you use them correctly.

We could take a good lesson from the PACIFIC RIM Asians who have utter
respect for their elders and the whole family takes care of one
another and they also have their attrocities as well. Israeli people
also share this tradition, most of the time, not all. I like their
(China's) remedy of one child only, but their hill toward having boys
and leaving girls out to whatever happens (in some not all cases). We
could stand to adopt some of those traditions to lower our poisonous
world, Asia included.

Ethnocentric attitudes? The world hates us for our brazen, obnoxious
people like YOU perhaps, who make believe there are no differences in
the human race.


Once again, I never, ever said or implied that I don't see differences in
the human race. The only obnoxious person in this debate is you.

Yes, it is all one human race, many of us are very
different. Unless you've lived in any of the countries mentioned or
even traveled to any of them and stayed long enough to learn the
customs and traditions, you cannot say for sure what their differences
are. If you have your PhD in sociology, you may have some cred, but
unless you have experience with having immigrants of these cultures
ascimillating into our dumb ways in 'merka (as our monkey mind
president calls it) you cannot prove anything you say.


Well actually, my degrees are in anthropology and South Asian Studies, so
yes, I do know a thing or two about definitions of race and culture,
especially those pertaining to ASIANS. Where's your cred?

I can't
either. This is a debate. Stop with all this offense. If you were
balanced NOBODY could ever offend you.


Regarding your spew as offensive is not the same thing as being offended.
The only unbalanced one here is you. You're a kook, and every time you open
your big mouth you prove it more and more.

The people who I love the most are from China, Tibet, Nepal, and
Bhutan, India, etc. They are all called Asian. I said nothing about
"slanty eyes." That was your slanader.


No it wasn't, dimwit. It was yours.

If you are offended, do yourself a favor and ignore me. It's very
easy to do. I still can't believe you don't think overpopulation can
create conditions where fundamentalism becomes hostile.

One last thing, I am part Russian and wouldn't call myself Asian in
any shape, way or manner. I am caucasian with Russian and Italian
descent.

Unless you want to hold a debate where others don't always say
everything you want them to say as not to offend you (which is
impossible anyway) maybe this should be the final words we should
have.


Impossible? I never said I was offended. I said your diatribe was
offensive. Everything you've said about race, culture and what the rest of
the world thinks is wrong, woefully so. I'm just calling you it. Go ahead
and call for final words--it's only because you know you're wrong and you
can only dig yourself further into the hole you crawled out of recently.

You want to be offended? Look at what Donald Rumsfeld told the
American sheep. Now you will have a more specific reason why the
world hates us.


Victoria


BAAAA!!!
Jinx


 




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