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pure gold not so pure?



 
 
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  #1  
Old November 26th 08, 02:18 AM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
m4816k
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 7
Default pure gold not so pure?

Recently I saw that on the surface of one of my 24k ingots, a small brown
dot developed, and it was while the piece was still in original package
(cardboard/plastic). I thought that some dirt may have entered the space
within, and decided to take it out to see if it can be cleaned. I used a dry
soft cloth but not just that it didn't go away, but the other day I saw two
more of the kind (a few months after the first). They look like some
"greasy" dots of about 1 mm in size and are transparent (like they're done
with liquid). What might that be? There were none when the piece was new and
they showed up on just that one piece.


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  #2  
Old November 26th 08, 02:30 AM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
Peter W.. Rowe,
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 355
Default pure gold not so pure?

On Tue, 25 Nov 2008 17:18:56 -0800, in rec.crafts.jewelry "m4816k"
wrote:

Recently I saw that on the surface of one of my 24k ingots, a small brown
dot developed, and it was while the piece was still in original package
(cardboard/plastic). I thought that some dirt may have entered the space
within, and decided to take it out to see if it can be cleaned. I used a dry
soft cloth but not just that it didn't go away, but the other day I saw two
more of the kind (a few months after the first). They look like some
"greasy" dots of about 1 mm in size and are transparent (like they're done
with liquid). What might that be? There were none when the piece was new and
they showed up on just that one piece.


Pure gold does not form oxides or sulphides, which are the common types of
discoloration and tarnish seen on lower karat golds, as well as silver or copper
alloys. But this does not mean that gold does not react with anything.
Chlorine, Iodine, Cyanides, and a few less common things can all react with
gold, and some of them, if spilled on the gold, could discolor it. Of those,
Iodine is the most common culprit I've seen, since people in medical professions
often use iodine based disinfectants, and it can leave a discoloration on even
pure gold. Other possibilities are that you've spilled or splashed something
without knowing it, or something from the ingots surroundings got on it,
leaving an actual residue rather than a discolored spot, but you'd likely see
that as something ON the ingot. And finally, even if it's pure gold, there's a
small possibility that in the manufacture of the ingot, some trace contaminant
such as traces from melting fluxes or equipment might have stayed on the
surface. Not likely, I don't think, but possible. Or perhaps your ingot is
actually fake. That's not likely either if you bought it from a reputable
source.

I have seen similar spots forming on occasional jewelry peices. One I recall
was a nice pair of 18K yellow gold earrings, and one of the two earrings had
developed these reddish brown discolorations. Nothing I tried in simple
cleaners or the usual jewelry cleaning methods removed it, so I ended up
polishing it off, which worked fine. But we never did figure out what was
causing them, aside from surmising that perhaps the maker had used an inferior
grade of solder, and some of it was in that area. But that was just a wild
guess. I've not seen this happen often, so it's hard to really do any research
on it...

Peter
  #3  
Old November 26th 08, 08:44 AM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
Carl 1 Lucky Texan
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 57
Default pure gold not so pure?

m4816k wrote:

Recently I saw that on the surface of one of my 24k ingots, a small brown
dot developed, and it was while the piece was still in original package
(cardboard/plastic). I thought that some dirt may have entered the space
within, and decided to take it out to see if it can be cleaned. I used a dry
soft cloth but not just that it didn't go away, but the other day I saw two
more of the kind (a few months after the first). They look like some
"greasy" dots of about 1 mm in size and are transparent (like they're done
with liquid). What might that be? There were none when the piece was new and
they showed up on just that one piece.



Possibly plasticizer or something else from the container condensing on
the ingot?

Carl


--
to reply, change ( .not) to ( .net)
  #4  
Old November 26th 08, 05:56 PM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
m4816k
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 7
Default pure gold not so pure?

"Peter W.. Rowe," wrote in message
...
On Tue, 25 Nov 2008 17:18:56 -0800, in rec.crafts.jewelry "m4816k"
wrote:

Recently I saw that on the surface of one of my 24k ingots, a small brown
dot developed, and it was while the piece was still in original package
(cardboard/plastic). I thought that some dirt may have entered the space
within, and decided to take it out to see if it can be cleaned. I used a
dry
soft cloth but not just that it didn't go away, but the other day I saw
two
more of the kind (a few months after the first). They look like some
"greasy" dots of about 1 mm in size and are transparent (like they're
done
with liquid). What might that be? There were none when the piece was new
and
they showed up on just that one piece.


Pure gold does not form oxides or sulphides, which are the common types of
discoloration and tarnish seen on lower karat golds, as well as silver or
copper
alloys. But this does not mean that gold does not react with anything.
Chlorine, Iodine, Cyanides, and a few less common things can all react
with
gold, and some of them, if spilled on the gold, could discolor it. Of
those,
Iodine is the most common culprit I've seen, since people in medical
professions
often use iodine based disinfectants, and it can leave a discoloration on
even
pure gold. Other possibilities are that you've spilled or splashed
something
without knowing it, or something from the ingots surroundings got on it,
leaving an actual residue rather than a discolored spot, but you'd likely
see
that as something ON the ingot. And finally, even if it's pure gold,
there's a
small possibility that in the manufacture of the ingot, some trace
contaminant
such as traces from melting fluxes or equipment might have stayed on the
surface. Not likely, I don't think, but possible. Or perhaps your
ingot is
actually fake. That's not likely either if you bought it from a
reputable
source.

I have seen similar spots forming on occasional jewelry peices. One I
recall
was a nice pair of 18K yellow gold earrings, and one of the two earrings
had
developed these reddish brown discolorations. Nothing I tried in simple
cleaners or the usual jewelry cleaning methods removed it, so I ended up
polishing it off, which worked fine. But we never did figure out what was
causing them, aside from surmising that perhaps the maker had used an
inferior
grade of solder, and some of it was in that area. But that was just a
wild
guess. I've not seen this happen often, so it's hard to really do any
research
on it...

Peter


Thank you for another in-depth answer!

Do you think these smudges would go away if I'd have something made from
that gold? I was thinking of using it in a jewellery project in the first
place.

The thing was never worn (as it can't be, by itself) and is in a box since
it was bought, and as mentioned before, first smudge formed while it was
still in original package. So my assumption is that it reacted to something
in the transparent plastic used for package (like Carl suggested). But, as I
said, additional ones developed after taking it out of that plastic, which
confused me.

I don't believe it's a fake, cause I have another from the same source and
it's just fine.


  #5  
Old November 26th 08, 05:58 PM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
Peter W.. Rowe,
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 355
Default pure gold not so pure?

On Wed, 26 Nov 2008 08:56:46 -0800, in rec.crafts.jewelry "m4816k"
wrote:


Thank you for another in-depth answer!


You're welcome.


Do you think these smudges would go away if I'd have something made from
that gold? I was thinking of using it in a jewellery project in the first
place.


Yes, of course. They're just surface discolorations or something, right? So
you could polish or clean them off, and actually working the metal in some way
would totally change the surface as well.


The thing was never worn (as it can't be, by itself) and is in a box since
it was bought, and as mentioned before, first smudge formed while it was
still in original package. So my assumption is that it reacted to something
in the transparent plastic used for package (like Carl suggested). But, as I
said, additional ones developed after taking it out of that plastic, which
confused me.


It's an odd puzzle indeed. But probably not something to worry too much about.


I don't believe it's a fake, cause I have another from the same source and
it's just fine.

  #6  
Old December 4th 08, 05:57 PM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
Clara Semps
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2
Default pure gold not so pure?

Sounds to me very much like the spots you get with 24K plating. Being a
purer gold, if you plate in 24K, the brass underneath tends to leqk
through much quicker and easier. It's possible that your ingot is not
solid, but plated. Bummer. But not the first time I've seen these
fakes. If you're purchasing gold for use in making your own jewelry,
you'd be better off buying Gold Casting grains from legitimate
supplier like Rio Grande. The grains mke it very easy to only melt the
amount you need with minimal waste.

Clara

In article , m4816k
wrote:

Recently I saw that on the surface of one of my 24k ingots, a small brown
dot developed, and it was while the piece was still in original package
(cardboard/plastic). I thought that some dirt may have entered the space
within, and decided to take it out to see if it can be cleaned. I used a dry
soft cloth but not just that it didn't go away, but the other day I saw two
more of the kind (a few months after the first). They look like some
"greasy" dots of about 1 mm in size and are transparent (like they're done
with liquid). What might that be? There were none when the piece was new and
they showed up on just that one piece.


  #7  
Old January 7th 09, 04:19 AM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
Linda7768
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2
Default pure gold not so pure?

On Dec 4 2008, 11:57*am, Clara Semps wrote:

Sounds to me very much like the spots you get with 24K plating. Being a
purer gold, if you plate in 24K, the brass underneath tends to leqk
through much quicker and easier. It's possible that your ingot is not
solid, but plated. Bummer. But not the first time I've seen these
fakes. If you're purchasing gold for use in making your own jewelry,
you'd be better off buying Gold Casting grains from *legitimate
supplier like Rio Grande. The grains mke it very easy to only melt the
amount you need with minimal waste.

Clara

In article , m4816k



wrote:
Recently I saw that on the surface of one of my 24k ingots, a small brown
dot developed, and it was while the piece was still in original package
(cardboard/plastic). I thought that some dirt may have entered the space
within, and decided to take it out to see if it can be cleaned. I used a dry
soft cloth but not just that it didn't go away, but the other day I saw two
more of the kind (a few months after the first). They look like some
"greasy" dots of about 1 mm in size and are transparent (like they're done
with liquid). What might that be? There were none when the piece was new and
they showed up on just that one piece.- Hide quoted text -


- Show quoted text -


What is the differences between gold plated and gold filled? I was
told that gold-filled is better than gold-plated, and just bought a
pearl necklace that has lots of gold beads (gold filled) on it. From
the seller site http://www.jewelryten.com, it said that "there is
approx 100 times more gold in gold fill, than there is on regular gold
plating", is this true? Is it possible for gold-filled to develop any
brown dots in the future?
They have the similar product with 14k gold beads, but the price is
much higher. Is it worth to pay more $100 for replacing gold-filled
with 14k gold beads?
  #8  
Old January 7th 09, 04:35 AM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
Peter W. Rowe[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 115
Default pure gold not so pure?

On Tue, 06 Jan 2009 19:19:31 -0800, in rec.crafts.jewelry Linda7768
wrote:


What is the differences between gold plated and gold filled? I was
told that gold-filled is better than gold-plated, and just bought a
pearl necklace that has lots of gold beads (gold filled) on it. From
the seller site http://www.jewelryten.com, it said that "there is
approx 100 times more gold in gold fill, than there is on regular gold
plating", is this true?


It can be. Gold plated is an electroplate which can vary from just a few atoms
thick to almost a very thin foil in thickness. Usually, it's pretty thin. Gold
filled on the other hand is made by bonding a thin sheet of karat gold (most
commonly 12K, but cam be 10K or 14K etc) to a base layer of (usually) bronze or
brass. That composite sheet (which can also be made with a gold layer on both
sides) is then rolled, stamped, or otherwise worked into the jewelry. Gold
plated is electroplated onto the finished base metal jewelry. Most gold filled
items are (or should be at least sold with identification of this sort) marked
with a fraction that tells you how much of the thickness of the piece is the
gold layer. A common one is 1/20 12K GF, which means that 1 part in 20 of the
total thickness is that 12K gold layer. This generally is much thicker than
gold plated items, so it will wear much longer. But gold filled specifies a
ratio of gold to base metal, not an actual thickness. If the composite sheet is
rolled very thin, the gold layer might end up not much thicker than the thickest
of gold plated items. And gold plating can be put on thinner or thicker too. So
while gold filled is usually much thicker than gold plate, saying it's 100 times
thicker is probably not accurate. Also keep in mind that gold filled work has a
layer of 10K or 12K or 14K gold, all of which are not pure at all, but an alloy.
Gold electroplated layers usually, due to the nature of the chemical processes
involved, are higher karat gold. It's not uncommon for gold electroplate to be
18K or higher in purity. Still, that layer is so thin in most cases that the
higher percentage of gold isn't a material factor in value. But it CAN be a
factor in appearance, as the higher karat content of gold plated layers can give
them a brighter yellow color.

Is it possible for gold-filled to develop any
brown dots in the future?


That whole discussion of "brown dots" is a real oddity. Yes, gold filled work,
especially 10K, can tarnish, just like the solid gold of similar quality, but
it's not generally a big problem with any gold...

They have the similar product with 14k gold beads, but the price is
much higher. Is it worth to pay more $100 for replacing gold-filled
with 14k gold beads?


That's up to you. The thicker gold layer, especially with hollow beads which
often are very thin metal whether gold filled or full karat gold, means that
even the 14K gold beads can be crushed or damaged with wear, possibly as
quickly, and maybe even quicker for some beads, than gold filled. With much
gold filled wares, by the time you wear through the gold fill layer, the item is
getting pretty worn looking, and so would solid gold, though you'd not wear
through a surface layer to base metal. The solid gold (meaning not a layer of
base metal underneath, even if the beads are still hollow and thin metal) beads
are considered better quality and more valuable, but value is a subjective
thing. For many items, the gold filled will give you almost as good service as
the karat gold items. With other items, especially thicker heavier pieces
subject to more wear (like finger rings), gold filled will not perform as well
or for as long.

HTH

Peter
  #9  
Old January 8th 09, 06:27 AM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
Linda7768
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2
Default pure gold not so pure?

On Jan 6, 10:35*pm, Peter W. Rowe
wrote:
On Tue, 06 Jan 2009 19:19:31 -0800, in rec.crafts.jewelry Linda7768

wrote:

What is the differences between gold plated and gold filled? I was
told that gold-filled is better than gold-plated, and just bought a
pearl necklace that has lots of gold beads (gold filled) on it. From
the seller sitehttp://www.jewelryten.com, it said that "there is
approx 100 times more gold in gold fill, than there is on regular gold
plating", is this true?


It can be. *Gold plated is an electroplate which can vary from just a few atoms
thick to almost a very thin foil in thickness. *Usually, it's pretty thin. *Gold
filled on the other hand is made by bonding a thin sheet of karat gold (most
commonly 12K, but cam be 10K or 14K etc) to a base layer of (usually) bronze or
brass. *That composite sheet (which can also be made with a gold layer on both
sides) is then rolled, stamped, or otherwise worked into the jewelry. *Gold
plated is electroplated onto the finished base metal jewelry. *Most gold filled
items are (or should be at least sold with identification of this sort) marked
with a fraction that tells you how much of the thickness of the piece is the
gold layer. *A common one is 1/20 12K GF, which means that 1 part in 20 of the
total thickness is that 12K gold layer. *This generally is much thicker than
gold plated items, so it will wear much longer. *But gold filled specifies a
ratio of gold to base metal, not an actual thickness. *If the composite sheet is
rolled very thin, the gold layer might end up not much thicker than the thickest
of gold plated items. *And gold plating can be put on thinner or thicker too. So
while gold filled is usually much thicker than gold plate, saying it's 100 times
thicker is probably not accurate. *Also keep in mind that gold filled work has a
layer of 10K or 12K or 14K gold, all of which are not pure at all, but an alloy.
Gold electroplated layers usually, due to the nature of the chemical processes
involved, are higher karat gold. *It's not uncommon for gold electroplate to be
18K or higher in purity. *Still, that layer is so thin in most cases that the
higher percentage of gold isn't a material factor in value. But it CAN be a
factor in appearance, as the higher karat content of gold plated layers can give
them a brighter yellow color.

Is it possible for gold-filled to develop any
brown dots in the future?


That whole discussion of "brown dots" is a real oddity. *Yes, gold filled work,
especially 10K, can tarnish, just like the solid gold of similar quality, but
it's not generally a big problem with any gold...

They have the similar product with 14k gold beads, but the price is
much higher. Is it worth to pay more $100 for replacing gold-filled
with 14k gold beads?


That's up to you. *The thicker gold layer, especially with hollow beads which
often are very thin metal whether gold filled or full karat gold, means that
even the 14K gold beads can be crushed or damaged with wear, possibly as
quickly, and maybe even quicker for some beads, than gold filled. *With much
gold filled wares, by the time you wear through the gold fill layer, the item is
getting pretty worn looking, and so would solid gold, though you'd not wear
through a surface layer to base metal. * The solid gold (meaning not a layer of
base metal underneath, even if the beads are still hollow and thin metal) beads
are considered better quality and more valuable, but value is a subjective
thing. *For many items, the gold filled will give you almost as good service as
the karat gold items. *With other items, especially thicker heavier pieces
subject to more wear (like finger rings), gold filled will not perform as well
or for as long.

HTH

Peter


Thank you so much for the thorough answers. It is very helpful.
 




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