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#1
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Ebay Diamonds
Hello All,
I am in the market for loose diamonds. I have been to several stores in my area, but recently decided to look at how diamonds are selling on E-Bay. From what auctions I have found, diamonds sell considerably less on E-Bay. I am interested in purchasing diamonds on E-Bay; however, my dilemma is the following: 1. I feel uncomfortable making such an expensive purchase over a wire without seeing my product first. 2. I worry that I=92m getting scammed. 3. I wonder if I truly am getting the best deal. 4. I=92m not sure what probing questions to ask for my protection. Can anyone offer good suggestions as to how I can protect myself while making such a large purchase? I would also love to hear from folks who have actually purchased diamonds on e-bay. I appreciate your advice and time! |
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#2
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Ebay Diamonds
papa smurf schrieb:
Hello All, I am in the market for loose diamonds. I have been to several stores in my area, but recently decided to look at how diamonds are selling on E-Bay. From what auctions I have found, diamonds sell considerably less on E-Bay. I am interested in purchasing diamonds on E-Bay; however, my dilemma is the following: 1. I feel uncomfortable making such an expensive purchase over a wire without seeing my product first. This won´t help. Especially if You are not a diamond expert you can´t fix the quality and the worth of the diamond by yourself. 2. I worry that I'm getting scammed. 3. I wonder if I truly am getting the best deal. If You will buy cheap the risk is higher that You will get a banana. So it is better to buy in a store witch is well known and eg. a company of good standing. They won´t cheat You. 4. I'm not sure what probing questions to ask for my protection. Can anyone offer good suggestions as to how I can protect myself while making such a large purchase? I would also love to hear from folks who have actually purchased diamonds on e-bay. I appreciate your advice and time! Look here for diamanonds wich are second hand ans so far not too expensive. http://www.schmuck-boerse.com/index-...-diamant-2.htm Mit freundlichem Gruß, Heinrich Butschal -- Schmuck Gutachter und Schmuckverkauf http://www.butschal.de Schmuck nach Maß anfertigen http://www.meister-atelier.de Firmengeschenke und Ehrennadeln http://www.goldschmiede-meister.com Schmuckmanufaktur http://www.schmuckfabrik.de Schmuck gut verkaufen und günstig kaufen http://www.schmuck-boerse.com |
#3
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Ebay Diamonds
"papa smurf" wrote in message ... Hello All, I am in the market for loose diamonds. I have been to several stores in my area, but recently decided to look at how diamonds are selling on E-Bay. From what auctions I have found, diamonds sell considerably less on E-Bay. I am interested in purchasing diamonds on E-Bay; however, my dilemma is the following: 1. I feel uncomfortable making such an expensive purchase over a wire without seeing my product first. 2. I worry that I=92m getting scammed. 3. I wonder if I truly am getting the best deal. 4. I=92m not sure what probing questions to ask for my protection. Can anyone offer good suggestions as to how I can protect myself while making such a large purchase? I would also love to hear from folks who have actually purchased diamonds on e-bay. I appreciate your advice and time! Diamonds without a certificate of origin these days may be 'blood diamonds'. Pass them through an international border (by post or in your pocket) you stand a chance of getting them impounded. These days the diamond investment market is plunging like a stone. It's an artificial market that has a very limited lifetime now that everyone has realised that it's a cartel cheating them. Buy rubies, you can't fake them or manufacture them. -- William Black I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach Time for tea. |
#4
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Ebay Diamonds
On Sat, 21 Jun 2008 14:04:52 -0700, in rec.crafts.jewelry "William Black"
wrote: Diamonds without a certificate of origin these days may be 'blood diamonds'. Yes, but it's a fairly small percentage of the overall market. And certificates of origin too, are pretty much based on trust. paper is easier to fake than diamonds. The thing to rely on is the integrity of your supplier. Not papers. In the U.S., at this point in time, blood diamonds are more the subject of movies and news stories than a major problem. Yes, the problem still exists, but it's only a small percentage of the diamond market that's at all suspect. This doesn't help with detecting such stones, but the odds are still in your favor. And of course, while blood diamonds are a social issue, they are not a gemological issue. Blood diamonds are still diamonds, after all. The trick is making sure your money is not going to finance suffering and war. Instead, it should be going to make a filthy rich monopoly even richer... (grin) Pass them through an international border (by post or in your pocket) you stand a chance of getting them impounded. Oh? Not likely. At least not at the consumer level or with cut stones. Now, if you smuggle anything illegally, you can get it confiscated and yourself in jail. Diamonds are not in some special class here. But we're just talking about buying stones on ebay in this thread, not on buying millions of carats of rough and crossing borders. These days the diamond investment market is plunging like a stone. It's an artificial market that has a very limited lifetime now that everyone has realised that it's a cartel cheating them. How is this some sudden thing? The market is as it's been for almost a hundred years. The internet has changed a lot of the rules of buying stones at the retail level, but the "investment" market in diamonds pretty much dried up a couple decades ago. it's been back, mostly, to a gem market for traditional gem needs. Yes, the market is a bit slow now, but not unsurprising for a global recession. If you really want to be looking for threats to the diamond market, forget about some new level of consumer awareness. That'll never happen. Instead, look to the future availability of good synthetic diamonds. That MIGHT have an effect worth noting. But despite a number of years of loud news stories and alarms, it's not happened yet. Either the crash, or the avialability of the synthetic stones. So far, you can get a limited supply of synthetic diamonds in bright yellows and orange colors. So far, not colorless. That may be a few years off yet. And whether it will affect the market for natural stones remains to be seen. The wide availability of many synthetic colored stones hasn't much hurt the market for the finest of the natural gems. if anything, it's raised awareness of those gems and demand for them. Buy rubies, you can't fake them or manufacture them. what planet are you living on, William? Synthetic rubies have been around since the late 1800s, and have been getting better all along. Some of the common types are easy to identify, but there are others that require a sophisticated commercial gem lab to positively separate from the natural rubies. Your statement about buying rubies is a good one nevertheless, since fine natural rubies remain rare and, as gems go, a good investement. But you certainly CAN fake them and manufacture them. Such fakes and synthetics are widely and inexpensively available, and are much more common than good natural stones. And then there are the many issues with treated rubies. Heat treated, diffused, or glass filled natural rubies present ever more thorny problems for gemologists and buyers every year. In fact, coming back to the buying and selling of gems on ebay, I'd guess that someone buying "ruby" on ebay is far more likely to be sold a synthetic or simulated ruby fraudulently, than would be someone buying diamond, since in the case of diamond, the choice of a cheap synthetic diamond doesn't exist, so it would have to be a simulant (not as close a substitution, and easy to detect) if not actually a diamond. Peter |
#5
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Ebay Diamonds
On Fri, 20 Jun 2008 10:04:20 -0700, in rec.crafts.jewelry papa smurf
wrote: Hello All, I am in the market for loose diamonds. I have been to several stores in my area, but recently decided to look at how diamonds are selling on E-Bay. From what auctions I have found, diamonds sell considerably less on E-Bay. I am interested in purchasing diamonds on E-Bay; however, my dilemma is the following: 1. I feel uncomfortable making such an expensive purchase over a wire without seeing my product first. 2. I worry that I'm getting scammed. 3. I wonder if I truly am getting the best deal. 4. I'm not sure what probing questions to ask for my protection. Can anyone offer good suggestions as to how I can protect myself while making such a large purchase? I would also love to hear from folks who have actually purchased diamonds on e-bay. I appreciate your advice and time! papa smurf, You need to tell us a little more for a meaningful answer. Are you a jeweler or collector looking to buy for stock or inventory or otherwise in significant quantities? If so, you'd be better off cultivating the usual business relationships with standard wholesale diamond suppliers and dealers. if you're really at this level, then you'll know where and how to educate yourself about diamonds so as to be able to compare dealers, as well as evaluate the stones. I'm assuming, though, that this is not correct, but that rather, you wish to buy diamonds for your own use and ownership. Right? So you're a "retail" customer looking to save money. That's natural enough, since traditional "brick and morter" stores often charge a higher markup than you may wish to pay. For that, you get better service, warranties, sometimes buy-back policies, the right to expect that what you're buying is indeed what it's described as being, and the fun of knowing you're making a salesperson happy. Sometimes, very happy. The internet, however, has changed many of the old rules of buying diamonds. it used to be that any jeweler could sell you diamonds, that most such jewelers were fairly competative with each other, and this standard retail market was the main place most people bought diamonds. The usual markup between wholesale and these retail sales varied from 200 to 300 percent, and any shopper doing a bit of store comparisons could find the best deals, while the higher price levels might offer things like more exclusive designers, or more libral financing option. or just more advertising. But the internet has seen any number of people go into business by setting up a web site on which they host the inventory list of one or more of their diamond wholesale suppliers (real wholesalers, not the scam "wholesale to the public" sorts of things), to which the web site would add a markup. In these sites, the markup sometimes would be as low as a ten percent markup, VERY low by any business model or retail standard you might choose to look at. Even wholesale clubs like costco or sams, or your grocery store, usually need to mark things up more than that just to break even, so these web sales of diamonds really have put a dent in the diamond market. Now, many of these brick and morter stores have had to compete. I know any number of retailers who will order a stone to be sent on memo, show it to a customer, and if it's Ok, will sell it for a fairly small added markup, sometimes as low as that ten or fifteen percent, though usually a bit more. Still, it's a LOT more competative than it used to be. Some of the more pricey and exclusive stores don't do this, but still charge the same high markups they ever did, and there are people who will still happily pay these prices. But you don't need to any more if you're careful. And if you shop on line, and do your research into reputations and the like, you can still find those sites selling at a very reasonable and low markup. www.tradeshop.com is one such. Started by one of the original regulars to this newsgroup way back in the mid 90s, Ray Elsey, who sadly, passed away earlier this year. But his company is still in business, and they're still happily giving people bargains on diamonds. And they're not along. Blue Nile, a Seattle based company, has in just a few years become one of the biggest diamond sellers in the country, all on their web site. Not quite as cheap as tradeshop, but still a fine firm to buy from, who's ****ing off lots of the traditional retail jewelers by being cheaper than they are... And a bit of a search of the net will show you many many more such options if you look. As to ebay. Well, it's not the site that matters. it's the sellers. Remember that, as an auction site, ebay has nothing to do with the merchandise. It's all individual sellers, who may vary from crooks to fine dealers to individual housewives who no longer want their jewelery and are trying to dump it somehow. Just how you protect yourself here is kind of up to you. Hard to check on people aside from their ebay feedback records, which sometimes can give you a skewed view. You don't know who their buyers are, how experienced and knowlegeable those buyers are, and thus, how valid their feedback. Sometimes you can check out a seller to verify who they are, and other times you can't. Ebay is a good place to shop for things IF, and only IF, you know what you're doing as regards the merchandise. if you know diamond grading and evaluation, and thus can form an informed opionion of a stone based on it's description, as well as knowing when a description isn't telling you what it needs to do in order to be accurate, then you've a hope of finding some decent deals. i've seen some stones sold on ebay for less than their wholesale value, and others sold there not only for more than their retail value, but which shouldn't have been sold at all, due to fraudulent descriptions. To do OK on ebay, you need to first already know what the market prices for a given item or stone should be, and then you need to know how to be sure the item is as described, and what the description needs to tell you to be meaningful. This isn't a simple list of questions we can give you here on the newsgroup which you can read down and rattle off to a seller and get answers or no answers to. You need to actually understand the subject of you are a sitting duck for the shysters and won't know it. Still, you might get some fine buys. But will you know them when you see them? Can you read a discription and know that what it's describing tells you a stone is worth buying instead of a stone with lots of fancy sounding labels that tells you nothing? You know the old saying. buyer beware. Loose gemstones on ebay is one fine example of that. Many sellers there are fine people and their wares are honest. But whether they're a great bargain is another question. A simple list of things you should ask won't help you. You need to understand diamonds well enough to have figured out what the questions are on your own, I think. Otherwise, someone could still just tell you all the right answers, and still send you a piece of crap, and you won't know the difference. Peter |
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Ebay Diamonds
"Peter W.. Rowe," wrote in message ... Pass them through an international border (by post or in your pocket) you stand a chance of getting them impounded. Oh? Not likely. At least not at the consumer level or with cut stones. British Customs (I'm not sure what the agency is called this week) has just bought a very clever device for telling the origin of diamonds by some sort clever test, probably crystalography of some kind. I gather that if you're even wearing too much expensive looking jewellery they get to play with it. Shipments of diamonds all get to go through it... The UK government has a great deal of interest in blood diamonds as a lot of them come from Sierra Leone where HMG has just fought a short but nasty war and is busy spending loads of money on making sure it's a nice stable democracy. Guess where the bad guy's money came from... If you really want to be looking for threats to the diamond market, forget about some new level of consumer awareness. That'll never happen. Instead, look to the future availability of good synthetic diamonds. That MIGHT have an effect worth noting. But despite a number of years of loud news stories and alarms, it's not happened yet. Either the crash, or the avialability of the synthetic stones. So far, you can get a limited supply of synthetic diamonds in bright yellows and orange colors. So far, not colorless. That may be a few years off yet. And whether it will affect the market for natural stones remains to be seen. The wide availability of many synthetic colored stones hasn't much hurt the market for the finest of the natural gems. if anything, it's raised awareness of those gems and demand for them. I keep looking for these synthetic stones here in the UK, but, as I've said before here, so far nobody seems to be interested in supplying them to jewellers in small quantities. Buy rubies, you can't fake them or manufacture them. what planet are you living on, William? Synthetic rubies have been around since the late 1800s, and have been getting better all along. Some of the common types are easy to identify, but there are others that require a sophisticated commercial gem lab to positively separate from the natural rubies. Then I must have misheard the chap at one gem supplier. My mistake. -- William Black I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach Time for tea. |
#7
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Ebay Diamonds
On Sat, 21 Jun 2008 14:52:20 -0700, in rec.crafts.jewelry "William Black"
wrote: British Customs (I'm not sure what the agency is called this week) has just bought a very clever device for telling the origin of diamonds by some sort clever test, probably crystalography of some kind. Very costly machines. They detect very slight differences in the various impurities in the crystals, which tend to vary based on location. Even then, however, it seldom can proove origin, only suggest it, as there's significant overlap in these properties from one location to another. They can, for example, take some stones and know for certain that they did not come from Sierro leone (one of the biggest problem areas), but the machine can't say this for certain for all locations, especially stones from other parts of africa with similar geology. And then there are the stones from Sierra Leone that happen to be legal. Perhaps mined legally before the war, or since, etc. etc. No separation there. And some stones, both blook diamonds and not, will simply not give any definative reading on the machine. It's a better test than nothing, but a long way from being even close to perfect. So far, the only real solution has been requiring importers, cutters, dealers, to maintain a paper trail showing the origin of the stones. But I've yet to see a retail store offering retail customers any paperwork that verifiably continues this paper trail, so consumers are left hanging. And dishonest dealers have been known to forge paperwork. I gather that if you're even wearing too much expensive looking jewellery they get to play with it. Shipments of diamonds all get to go through it... Shipments are probably less of a problem, since the likelyhood of proper paperwork and documentation is higher. Such documentation is not likely with finished jewelery, and even then, the testing may be not very meaningful. Even if diamonds are suspected of being originally from Sierra Leone or other conflict areas, there's no way to tell when they were mined, or if legally. You could have a fine diamond necklace, purchased legally in Hong Cong, with paperwork claiming conflict free diamonds, which are in fact bloody as hell, but if properly declared at customs, this would be legal. no grounds to confiscate it. Or another similar necklace, except from Harry Winston made in 1955, also with stones from Seirra Leone that the machine might yell about, yet it too is legal and the diamonds were not in a conflict then. All in all, lots of problems with such test. But at least, smugglers don't always know this. The real testers are likely to remain the customs officers themselves, looking for things being brought across that they can prove are illegal, or when smugglers, thinking themselves caught, will give away clues as to their activity. I keep looking for these synthetic stones here in the UK, but, as I've said before here, so far nobody seems to be interested in supplying them to jewellers in small quantities. In part, they're simply not available even in large quantities. Don't feel excluded. Gemesys, the main manufacturer of the nice yellow synthetics, is not able to make anywhere near as much as they could sell, so they hardly need to look for new distributors, either large or small. Then I must have misheard the chap at one gem supplier. Look for Chatham ruby, or Gilson ruby, as two manufacturers of fine flux grown stones. The cheap stuff is flame fusion, and stones cost pennies, but are still ruby. Look in wikipedia for "Verneuil process", for this first of the major ruby synthesis processes. The result is commony used in class rings, cheap jewelry, industrial bearings (watch bearings are often synthetic ruby like this). Nice bright red ruby, but easy to identify due to curved growth marks. Others include the "Czochralski process" (widely used for making the silicon crystals used in semiconductors, but also for high purity ruby, including for example, ruby laser rods. The result is one of those that are exceedingly difficult to prove as being synthetic in some cases, even when common sense tells you it has to be so, as it's too damn perfect to be real...), or the hydrothermal process , or Flux Growth methods. These two latter methods often produce gems that are Very much the same in appearance as natural gems, with the major differences being in the nature of the inclusions present, a separation that takes some training and a good microscope to do in many cases. More than a few gem dealers and even trained gemologists have been fooled by one or more of the various ruby synthetics or treatments from time to time... Peter |
#8
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Ebay Diamonds
papa smurf wrote:
Hello All, I am in the market for loose diamonds. I have been to several stores in my area, but recently decided to look at how diamonds are selling on E-Bay. From what auctions I have found, diamonds sell considerably less on E-Bay. I am interested in purchasing diamonds on E-Bay; however, my dilemma is the following: 1. I feel uncomfortable making such an expensive purchase over a wire without seeing my product first. So, ... that eliminates eBay. Question answered I would think 2. I worry that I=92m getting scammed. Go ahead, worry. 3. I wonder if I truly am getting the best deal. Go ahead, wonder. 4. I=92m not sure what probing questions to ask for my protection. Can anyone offer good suggestions as to how I can protect myself while making such a large purchase? Don't buy from eBay. Buy from someone you can trust. I would also love to hear from folks who have actually purchased diamonds on e-bay. You're not going to find them here. I appreciate your advice and time! Buy from me. You can trust me. Really, I promise. In all seriousness. If you would buy a diamond from me, I would only want to sell you a diamond with a GIA certificate. That way you have some assurances, that the diamond you get is worth what you paid for it, plus you can compare the specs and price to other identical or similar stones. If you are at all serious, you are more then welcome to contact by phone for advice. Advice is free. -- Abrasha http://www.abrasha.com |
#9
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Ebay Diamonds
On Sat, 21 Jun 2008 17:30:59 -0700, in rec.crafts.jewelry Abrasha
wrote: In all seriousness. If you would buy a diamond from me, I would only want to sell you a diamond with a GIA certificate. That way you have some assurances, that the diamond you get is worth what you paid for it, plus you can compare the specs and price to other identical or similar stones. Good recommendation. I'd add that the AGS certificates also seem to be trustworthy. There are a couple other labs issuing certs that are widely used, notably EGL. They're often not quite as reliable and accurate in their grading as GIA and AGS. GIA devised the grading scale usually used, and AGS also defines the portions of it's scale that differ, so each is using it's own "ruler". This differs from other labs that usually use the GIA scale, but often don't do it quite as stringently as the originators of the scales intend. EGL is notorious for being a bit loose in their grading, so stones with EGL certs often seem to cost a bit less than same sounding stones with AGS or GIA certs. They're not better deals automatically. Often, they are stones that would come back from AGS or GIA with the color or clarity listed one grade below what the EGL cert claims, thus explaining the apparent differences in cost. Stay away from stones with certificates issued by the seller, small local labs, or any lab that's not nationally recognized and used by a wide range of dealers. They may be fine, and might be quite good enough when you own a stone and need to have some documentation on it in order to get insurance or something. But to really verify grades, qualites, and value, you're best off with GIA or AGS as the lab that does the cert. The AGS scales are different looking from the GIA scales, but the actual standards for each grade are similar, so comparing from one lab to the other is easy and valid. cheers Peter |
#10
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Ebay Diamonds
Peter W.. Rowe, schrieb:
On Sat, 21 Jun 2008 17:30:59 -0700, in rec.crafts.jewelry Abrasha wrote: In all seriousness. If you would buy a diamond from me, I would only want to sell you a diamond with a GIA certificate. That way you have some assurances, that the diamond you get is worth what you paid for it, plus you can compare the specs and price to other identical or similar stones. Good recommendation. I'd add that the AGS certificates also seem to be trustworthy. There are a couple other labs issuing certs that are widely used, notably EGL. They're often not quite as reliable and accurate in their grading as GIA and AGS. GIA devised the grading scale usually used, and AGS also defines the portions of it's scale that differ, so each is using it's own "ruler". This differs from other labs that usually use the GIA scale, but often don't do it quite as stringently as the originators of the scales intend. EGL is notorious for being a bit loose in their grading, so stones with EGL certs often seem to cost a bit less than same sounding stones with AGS or GIA certs. They're not better deals automatically. Often, they are stones that would come back from AGS or GIA with the color or clarity listed one grade below what the EGL cert claims, thus explaining the apparent differences in cost. Stay away from stones with certificates issued by the seller, small local labs, or any lab that's not nationally recognized and used by a wide range of dealers. They may be fine, and might be quite good enough when you own a stone and need to have some documentation on it in order to get insurance or something. But to really verify grades, qualites, and value, you're best off with GIA or AGS as the lab that does the cert. The AGS scales are different looking from the GIA scales, but the actual standards for each grade are similar, so comparing from one lab to the other is easy and valid. cheers Peter For Europe, You might add HRD and FGA certificates into the recommendation list, as well as IGI certificates if these certificate are dated in this century. Mit freundlichem Gruß, Heinrich Butschal -- Schmuck Gutachter und Schmuckverkauf http://www.butschal.de Schmuck nach Maß anfertigen http://www.meister-atelier.de Firmengeschenke und Ehrennadeln http://www.goldschmiede-meister.com Schmuckmanufaktur http://www.schmuckfabrik.de Schmuck gut verkaufen und günstig kaufen http://www.schmuck-boerse.com |
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