Seeking Advice on jewelry moldings and metal supplys.

On Thu, 04 Jan 2007 01:24:42 +0000, Abrasha wrote:

Anyone who owned a solid 24K watch would probably take very good care
of it, even if it did scratch easily. I have seen none at Walmart
lately, but if you visited the Rolex factory you might find some --

No he won't! One, because he would have no access to a Rolex factory,--
and two, because 24K gold is not suitable for a watch case.

-- I don't know.

Suitability never stopped high end buyers. There was a story on the news
a solid 24K rocking horse for the kids...

http://news.sawf.org/Lifestyle/21686.aspx

On Thu, 04 Jan 2007 02:27:45 +0000, Abrasha wrote:

On Thu, 04 Jan 2007 01:24:42 +0000, Abrasha wrote:

Anyone who owned a solid 24K watch would probably take very good care
of it, even if it did scratch easily. I have seen none at Walmart
lately, but if you visited the Rolex factory you might find some --

No he won't! One, because he would have no access to a Rolex factory,--
and two, because 24K gold is not suitable for a watch case.

-- I don't know.

Suitability never stopped high end buyers. There was a story on the news
a solid 24K rocking horse for the kids...

http://news.sawf.org/Lifestyle/21686.aspx

(pardon, that should have been attributed to me, not you, A...)
--

mbstevens

On Wed, 03 Jan 2007 20:53:39 +0000, Marilee J. Layman wrote:

Marilee wrote:

No, but it's certainly required to market it properly.

And you really need to learn how to spell.
--
Marilee J. Layman
http://mjlayman.livejournal.com/

ME replied:

Cant say i really give a dam on spelling and grammer when chatting on
usenet. Im a pragmatist by nature and as long as its intelligable
enough to understand its good enough for me. Its the state of the skol
system here in the uk..lol. I do take more notice when designing for
the web though.


PS. Dyslexiks forever!...K.O!

Andrew Werby wrote:

[Forgive me if I'm wrong here, but it sounds like you're intending to copy
the "look and feel" of the line your current goldsmith has done for you,
patent it under your own name, take the production offshore, and keep all
the money for yourself. While this may be (barely) legal, it is not the sort
of thing that's calculated to draw a warm response from the goldsmiths that
usually gather here...]

yep i forgive you for your wild imagination. The contract i am engaging
in and still in the process of negotiating is too complex to explain in
one post but i can assure you it does not involve any ruthless dealings
or theft. the patents will always be with the artist and the artist
will be selling the collection to me.

If you are not
interested in giving quotes thats fine. I can take my business
elsewhere to people eager to sell there services and make new clients
who will buy the finest materials available.

[You haven't been asking for quotes, or sharing much about what you're
actually trying to make. You've mostly talked about getting the lowest
prices in the world, and asking us to share our hard-earned knowledge and
sources of goods, while staying anonymous. I'm afraid you come off more
like a ruthless competitor than a source of business for most of the
jewelers here. Fortunately, you also seem pretty clueless about the basics
of jewelry making, so you're probably just going to lose a bundle of money,
as Abrasha kindly warned you.]

I have never claimed to have any knowledge of jewelry, in fact quite
the opposite. I stated from the very begining i have no knowledge and
am seeking advice. Clearly with the exeption of the moderators kind
responce the people of this newsgroup are not exactly into networking
and making new leeds for potential business.

From the replies i am
receiving so far i am suprised people like yourself and the previous
hostile reply manage to forge relationships let alone forge gold. You
people need a lesson in business communication skills and learn to
respect potential business clients even when they may ask questions
that show no prior knowledge of jewelery. For all you know i could have
a global network of stores and you just turned away a million dollar
business deal. Your loss, not mine. Out of my league?.....Do you think
you are helping your own business by telling newcomers they are out of
their league.? You only make yourself sound arrogant and obnoxious. If
you were in any kind of league yourself you would show better business
etiquet rather than your walmart customer service skills. Since you
have no idea how much budget i have to spend you have no way of knowing
if it is yourself who is way out of my league. If i owned a store i
would not employ someone with your attitude to clean the toilets let
alone serve potential clients with your walmart customer service
skills. You are your own worst enemy with your hostile unprovoked
attitude. Perhaps you make nice jewelry but your people and business
skills stink.

[Well, to keep this thread from degenerating further, maybe we can let you
have the last word on all that. When you asked a specific question, about
the suitability of 24k gold as a substitute for other alloys, you got an
accurate answer. But answers to general questions, like how to buy diamonds
at wholesale in the world market, are outside the realm of things you can
reasonably expect from a forum like this. This is something that takes a lot
of experience and study to learn, as well as considerable capital (and
nerve) to actually do. I doubt that many of us here are at that level;
perhaps the poster above meant to say it was out of OUR league...]

Andrew Werby
www.computersculpture.com

As a forum for jewlers i was half expecting people to be falling over
themselves to sell someone or set up a middleman sale of the finest
materials or at least offer some advice to brake the ice. Clearly i am
misstaken to assume most jewelers can spot potential new business in
the form of an enquiry. If such wholesale services are out of the range
of normal business dealings for most in this group it only takes a
polite re-direct suggestion to newcomers rather than the rudeness shown
by some to make this clear.

regards...........A

Ted Frater wrote:

ME wrote:
Abrasha wrote:


ME wrote:

Hello (im new here)

I was hoping somebody in this newsgroup might be able to offer me
some advice on a jewellery collection i am trying to market. I already
have a collection made up (not available for viewing yet)which i am
contracted to begin marketing soon but also need to have new designs
made up in the existing style. I am only contracted to the existing
collection and so have no experience dealing with goldsmiths and
jewelers. I was hoping somebody might give me a rough ballpark estimate
with example links to the costs of having new designs made into molds
for gold, silver, white gold, and platinum in the full range of carats.
I am also in the market for perhaps finding a new source for our
gold/silv/platinum supply and wanted to know which countries are
generally concidered the cheapest/best places to buy from. The existing
collection is available in 14carot only, and i am told by the artist
her current goldsmith insists it is not possible to have the current
collection in a higher carat due to the softness of the metals. I am
unsure if this response is simply because the artist does not have the
time to arange higher carats or if the reasons given are genuine. I was
hoping to market the collection as being available in the highest
carats and finest quality diamonds and would apreciate any advice on
limitations that may exist and how i might find a way around these
limitations to provide the best quality materials. So much info exists
on the net, it makes it difficult to filter the quality from the masses
of junk, so im hoping for some pointers or shortcuts here. I will soon
be moving production to eastern europe due to the very low costs of
labour there and so sourcing metals and manufacturing the pieces from
molds are taken care of already. I simply need to have some molds made
up and find a supplier of metals and the finest quality small diamonds
for rings etc.

Many thanks for any advice offered.

A
Ted Frater wrote:

you may find Abrash's short and blunt reply upsetting
BUT he is a man of fewwords but very extensive knowhow in the top end of
the jewellery trade.
His advice is right, because you need an indepth background and long
standing practical knowledge of this trade in order not to make the
expensive mistakes you will make by transplanting your webdesign and
marketing skills to the jewellers business.
The skills just dont transplant into the jewellery manufacturing field.
Ive been a working silversmith for some 39 years designing, making and
marketing my own ideas and work and still only know my speciality ,
which is wrought work. IE forged and raised and minted objects.
Your best bet is to go to someone who is a major manufacturer and ask
him to quote you to make everything you want done. then go to one of the
top high st jewellers and offer them the collection. youll learn a great
deal from these 2 exercises, the main one is wether its worth your while
bothering with the project at all.
Now as to where to get the work made. Eastern Europe is cheaper on
labour BUT what control do you have over a production run a long way
from where you are.
Ive worked for the leading London Jewellers and know how they design,
make and market their jewellery.
there the ones your competing against, some of them have a tradition
going back some 100 years or more.
I wish you all the luck in the world idf you go down this road.

Many thanks for a civillised helpfull response...lol. You seem to have
got a better idea of my aims than others. The production is currently
in scandinavia as a family business which is run by my close friend, my
partner will soon be setting up base in eastern europe just over the
water for cheaper labour costs. I am aware of the reputation and high
styling of the top brands and i intend to market the existing pieces in
much the same way with the difference being an online ordering system.
The online system can of course lessen the prestige of the brand but
not having a ready supply chain we will begin using this model untill a
chain is established. I will of course never compete fully with top
brands without a large network of stores, however i do intend to brand
the collection as an equal in terms of quality and priceing. The
collection is a themed collection for a specific wealthy market who
will expect the finest materials available. I recognise that in doing
what i am doing i am taking large steps suddenly, but i simply must
have the collection made in a higher quality of metals to succeed in
the price range and target market. Perhaps you can tell me if there are
avenues to buy on demand (on sale) when it comes to the higher end
materials?. Or is access to these high quality materials only reserved
for the high end players with enormous sums to throw around upfront? Is
the common man able to place an order with the average high street
goldsmith for expensive pieces to be made up one by one as the demand
comes through? (pre paid of course). As you know i have no idea how
supply chains work in your business and at what ease the common man has
access to high end metals. I am hoping and preying this will not
involve too much stress or i will need to rethink my target market and
strategy completly. This would be a shame since we have an extreemly
innovative textile product of the finest quality which i am trying to
combine with the finest quality metals. Anything short of the finest
metals will defeat the potential of the products appeal to the high end
market, and i will have to settle with the lower high end market.

Regards........A

Ok...I'm finally crawling out of bed for this one...sigh..

I was hoping somebody in this newsgroup might be able to offer me
some advice on a jewellery collection i am trying to market. I already
have a collection made up (not available for viewing yet)which i am
contracted to begin marketing soon but also need to have new designs
made up in the existing style. I am only contracted to the existing
collection and so have no experience dealing with goldsmiths and
jewelers.

Why the heck would any jeweler sell to you when you state that you, "
have no experience dealing with goldsmiths and jewelers"? Especially
high end goldsmiths, whom I would expect to have enough skills and
sense to market themselves without the "help" of a middleman who knows
nothing about materials, design, craft or the craftspeople in the field
they are choosing to go into?

I was hoping somebody might give me a rough ballpark estimate
with example links to the costs of having new designs made into molds
for gold, silver, white gold, and platinum in the full range of carats.
I am also in the market for perhaps finding a new source for our
gold/silv/platinum supply and wanted to know which countries are
generally concidered the cheapest/best places to buy from.

Hope springs eternal son......Most of us have worked very hard to find
those sources. I am usually the most open of anyone with sources, but I
wouldn't give you any, especially with an approach like this. Ick. I
don't send anyone to my suppliers who knows virtually nothing.

The existing
collection is available in 14carot only, and i am told by the artist
her current goldsmith insists it is not possible to have the current
collection in a higher carat due to the softness of the metals. I am
unsure if this response is simply because the artist does not have the
time to arange higher carats or if the reasons given are genuine. I was
hoping to market the collection as being available in the highest
carats and finest quality diamonds and would apreciate any advice on
limitations that may exist and how i might find a way around these
limitations to provide the best quality materials.

No one here has any idea what you are talking about as you have not
provided any links to examples or an otherwise adequate description.

So much info exists
on the net, it makes it difficult to filter the quality from the masses
of junk, so im hoping for some pointers or shortcuts here. I will soon
be moving production to eastern europe due to the very low costs of
labour there and so sourcing metals and manufacturing the pieces from
molds are taken care of already. I simply need to have some molds made
up and find a supplier of metals and the finest quality small diamonds
for rings etc.

Many thanks for any advice offered.

You then state that you are looking to undercut all of us and your
present jeweler by outsourcing to eastern europe...... You want to do
everything on the cheap, take as many, "shorcuts" as you can, and yet
somehow you wish to stand out from "the masses of junk. And you would
do that how? And you want us to help you why?

Many thanks for a civillised helpfull response...lol. You seem to have
got a better idea of my aims than others. The production is currently
in scandinavia as a family business which is run by my close friend, my
partner will soon be setting up base in eastern europe just over the
water for cheaper labour costs. I am aware of the reputation and high
styling of the top brands and i intend to market the existing pieces in
much the same way with the difference being an online ordering system.
The online system can of course lessen the prestige of the brand but
not having a ready supply chain we will begin using this model untill a
chain is established. I will of course never compete fully with top
brands without a large network of stores,

You will "never compete fully with top brands", because you know
virtually nothing about your product. The "prestige" of the brand will
never occur with a manufacturer who knows nothing about his business,
so I wouldn't worry about competing.


however i do intend to brand
the collection as an equal in terms of quality and priceing. The
collection is a themed collection for a specific wealthy market who
will expect the finest materials available.

That market will also expect to buy from someone with some knowledge of
the materials and the product itself, so you are starting out a bit
hamstrung, no?

I recognise that in doing
what i am doing i am taking large steps suddenly, but i simply must
have the collection made in a higher quality of metals to succeed in
the price range and target market. Perhaps you can tell me if there are
avenues to buy on demand (on sale) when it comes to the higher end
materials?. Or is access to these high quality materials only reserved
for the high end players with enormous sums to throw around upfront? Is
the common man able to place an order with the average high street
goldsmith for expensive pieces to be made up one by one as the demand
comes through? (pre paid of course). As you know i have no idea how
supply chains work in your business and at what ease the common man has
access to high end metals. I am hoping and preying this will not
involve too much stress or i will need to rethink my target market and
strategy completly. This would be a shame since we have an extreemly
innovative textile product of the finest quality which i am trying to
combine with the finest quality metals. Anything short of the finest
metals will defeat the potential of the products appeal to the high end
market, and i will have to settle with the lower high end market.

Finest schminest...You can make the work in pure platinum, coated in
the brightest and clearest diamonds, dipped in magical fairy dust if
you wish...It won't make a bit of difference if you know nothing about
design, materials, or execution....and you don't.

Sorry...You are getting what you consider to be "rude" responses to
your requests, because your approach to this list is astoundingly
arrogant. I laughed out loud when I read your first post. I laughed
even harder when I read Abrashas inevitable..and in my opinion, asked
for....responses.

Please, at least educate yourself even marginally about your product.
You are not seor Gotbucks as is evidenced by the silliness of your
original and subsequent posts. Gotbucks would have not only hired and
paid someone for the type of info you are seeking, Gotbucks would be
paying someone to advise them on materials, sources and marketing to
boot so at least they wouldn't look so clueless.

Gotbucks would also not be looking to cheap out on virtually every
angle or their product, and would certainly not be posting insulting
elementary school questions to a list he obviously didn't bother to
ever check out or read prior to posting.

Sheesh...you guys can kick him some more, my foot hurts.
;-)

Minkie

On Wed, 03 Jan 2007 17:47:45 GMT, ME wrote:

On Wed, 03 Jan 2007 15:21:57 +0000, John wrote:
You gotta be kidding right? You want us to help you to make our lives
harder? It sounds to me like "her current goldsmith" is just about to lose
some work. With the way you're talking about jewellery, you're way out of
your league already.


John

the current goldsmith will be keeping her existing work, I am seeking
to develop "new pieces" which will fall under my own label which will
be marketed alongside the existing collection.

Dear Ghu. Hire a real jeweler to help you.
--
Marilee J. Layman
http://mjlayman.livejournal.com/

On Thu, 04 Jan 2007 03:03:20 GMT, ME wrote:

As a forum for jewlers i was half expecting people to be falling over
themselves to sell someone or set up a middleman sale of the finest
materials or at least offer some advice to brake the ice.

This is more of a discussion forum. We don't generally sell things.
Why would anybody offer you any help when you've been so rude?
--
Marilee J. Layman
http://mjlayman.livejournal.com/

ME wrote:
Ted Frater wrote:


ME wrote:

Abrasha wrote:



ME wrote:


Hello (im new here)

I was hoping somebody in this newsgroup might be able to offer me
some advice on a jewellery collection i am trying to market. I already
have a collection made up (not available for viewing yet)which i am
contracted to begin marketing soon but also need to have new designs
made up in the existing style. I am only contracted to the existing
collection and so have no experience dealing with goldsmiths and
jewelers. I was hoping somebody might give me a rough ballpark estimate
with example links to the costs of having new designs made into molds
for gold, silver, white gold, and platinum in the full range of carats.
I am also in the market for perhaps finding a new source for our
gold/silv/platinum supply and wanted to know which countries are
generally concidered the cheapest/best places to buy from. The existing
collection is available in 14carot only, and i am told by the artist
her current goldsmith insists it is not possible to have the current
collection in a higher carat due to the softness of the metals. I am
unsure if this response is simply because the artist does not have the
time to arange higher carats or if the reasons given are genuine. I was
hoping to market the collection as being available in the highest
carats and finest quality diamonds and would apreciate any advice on
limitations that may exist and how i might find a way around these
limitations to provide the best quality materials. So much info exists
on the net, it makes it difficult to filter the quality from the masses
of junk, so im hoping for some pointers or shortcuts here. I will soon
be moving production to eastern europe due to the very low costs of
labour there and so sourcing metals and manufacturing the pieces from
molds are taken care of already. I simply need to have some molds made
up and find a supplier of metals and the finest quality small diamonds
for rings etc.

Many thanks for any advice offered.

A

Ted Frater wrote:


you may find Abrash's short and blunt reply upsetting
BUT he is a man of fewwords but very extensive knowhow in the top end of
the jewellery trade.
His advice is right, because you need an indepth background and long
standing practical knowledge of this trade in order not to make the
expensive mistakes you will make by transplanting your webdesign and
marketing skills to the jewellers business.
The skills just dont transplant into the jewellery manufacturing field.
Ive been a working silversmith for some 39 years designing, making and
marketing my own ideas and work and still only know my speciality ,
which is wrought work. IE forged and raised and minted objects.
Your best bet is to go to someone who is a major manufacturer and ask
him to quote you to make everything you want done. then go to one of the
top high st jewellers and offer them the collection. youll learn a great
deal from these 2 exercises, the main one is wether its worth your while
bothering with the project at all.
Now as to where to get the work made. Eastern Europe is cheaper on
labour BUT what control do you have over a production run a long way
from where you are.
Ive worked for the leading London Jewellers and know how they design,
make and market their jewellery.
there the ones your competing against, some of them have a tradition
going back some 100 years or more.
I wish you all the luck in the world idf you go down this road.


Many thanks for a civillised helpfull response...lol. You seem to have
got a better idea of my aims than others. The production is currently
in scandinavia as a family business which is run by my close friend, my
partner will soon be setting up base in eastern europe just over the
water for cheaper labour costs. I am aware of the reputation and high
styling of the top brands and i intend to market the existing pieces in
much the same way with the difference being an online ordering system.
The online system can of course lessen the prestige of the brand but
not having a ready supply chain we will begin using this model untill a
chain is established. I will of course never compete fully with top
brands without a large network of stores, however i do intend to brand
the collection as an equal in terms of quality and priceing. The
collection is a themed collection for a specific wealthy market who
will expect the finest materials available. I recognise that in doing
what i am doing i am taking large steps suddenly, but i simply must
have the collection made in a higher quality of metals to succeed in
the price range and target market. Perhaps you can tell me if there are
avenues to buy on demand (on sale) when it comes to the higher end
materials?. Or is access to these high quality materials only reserved
for the high end players with enormous sums to throw around upfront? Is
the common man able to place an order with the average high street
goldsmith for expensive pieces to be made up one by one as the demand
comes through? (pre paid of course). As you know i have no idea how
supply chains work in your business and at what ease the common man has
access to high end metals. I am hoping and preying this will not
involve too much stress or i will need to rethink my target market and
strategy completly. This would be a shame since we have an extreemly
innovative textile product of the finest quality which i am trying to
combine with the finest quality metals. Anything short of the finest
metals will defeat the potential of the products appeal to the high end
market, and i will have to settle with the lower high end market.

Regards........A
Right, ill answer what amounts to 5 questions.
1.
Planning on selling to the top end customer via an online ordering
system, jewellery products, competing with the top end existing
jewellers, is going to break ice. You need to ask your self
Why should this buying public change their way of
purchasing this kind of product? to your way? from the way they are
used to?
Your going to have to offer something the others dont, and its not a
price reduction either. I know what to do but youll have to find
thatfor your self.
2.
Buying the highest quality materials is just like buying anything else.
All you need is to open an account with a precious metals refiner and
subsequent roller/ drawer/ of the grade you want and hell quote you from
1oz up to 100kgs or more. He will guarantee the quality etc to what
ever international spec you dictate. youll pay the going rate based on
the base metal price plus his manufactring cost. Its the same price for
everyone.
Try Cookson metals.
3.
Production? your going to find a manufacturer who has spare capacity to
develop what you want made.
Normally he will give you a production price including the metal and
diamond cost.
There is no average high st goldsmith. I dont think I know of any. All
high st sellers is a better way to describe the marketing side all have
their work made in their own outside workshops as a seperate tax entity
or put the work to independent makers who speciallise in volume trade work.
4.
You say your ideas are textile based.
Youll need to test the on line market with the current product range
before spending what will amount to half a million dollars on getting
your top end range to the market.
Your biggest cost is going to be the precious stones.
thats amarket unto itself. Youll find that its dominated by DeBeers
who control the market completly, buying up compettitors diamonds to
maintail their market monopoly.Youll be in the hands of existing diamond
dealers who are invited to view a parcel. You dont get invited unless
youve proved yourself inthe lower echelons of that trade.
that will; cost you plenty They the invited priviledged few then bid
for them , the highest generally wins tho not allways. Youll be buying
from them.
5.
you need to know the right questions to ask and who to ask them. thats
another skill .
If you waqnt to hire that skill it costs as follows.
GFor a 5 day week of 8hrs a day, plus all expenses of travel air fares
hotels etc. My fee is £1500.00 a week for as many weeks it takes to
pull the project production together.
Payable initially 4 weeks in advance.

For that you get all my knowhow and experience and contacts. theres no
guarantee that the product will sell where/or in the way you expect.
Thats your responsibility.

Is this what your looking for?
If so well arrange for the money transfer then well take it from there.
Ted Frater Dorset UK
Production consultant and trouble shooter. to NCR products.
The biggest name in the cash dispensing business.

Ted Frater wrote:


Your biggest cost is going to be the precious stones.
thats amarket unto itself. Youll find that its dominated by DeBeers
who control the market completly, buying up compettitors diamonds to
maintail their market monopoly.Youll be in the hands of existing diamond
dealers who are invited to view a parcel. You dont get invited unless
youve proved yourself inthe lower echelons of that trade.
that will; cost you plenty They the invited priviledged few then bid
for them , the highest generally wins tho not allways. Youll be buying
from them.


Ted, Ted, Ted, there you go again. You speak with authority about
matter you know little to nothing of. You've got that all wrong.

What you are talking about are the so called sights, to which only a
privileged few are invited to participate worldwide. Bidding does not
take place. De Beers sets the price. Furthermore De Beers does not
sell polished goods. They only sell rough. The sight consist of rough
diamonds only, which then end up with cutters, and from there trickle
down the chain.

"Critics contend that De Beers is also successful because behind the
scenes it operates with ruthless precision, choking supplies and
manipulating prices through the events it calls "sights". Every five
weeks, 125 manufacturers and dealers -- called "sightholders" in De Beers
parlance -- flock like swallows to the company's London headquarters for
these private sales. They represent an elite group hand selected by De
Beers to buy the cartel's rough diamonds.

"You can imagine this is like a sort of mini-United Nations every five
weeks," De Beers' Andrew Lamont said. "People (come) from all over the
world. These are the leading diamantaires meeting with each other,
discussing trade, the state of the market and that's what makes it so
unique and effective."

If this sounds like an ordinary business deal, it's not. The men who
come to these De Beers diamond sights are seeing the diamonds for the
first time -- even though they'll spend half a billion dollars, prices
agreed on in advance by De Beers."

DeBeers sets the price, the sight holder can take it or leave it. No
haggling over price. If a sightholder decides not to take a parcel, it
becomes unlikely that he will be invited back to a sight ever again.

This is just a fraction of how DeBeers controls the diamond trade. You
are well advised to research matters like this a bit before you post
your opinions. Get a book about the diamond trade at your local
library. It's an interesting read. The history of diamonds is fascinating.

--
Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com