Flatware

Sheffield is where my Hall mark is registered. The rose is Sheffield's
assay mark. I live about 18 miles away from Sheffield
Shirley





In message , Abrasha
writes
Jack Schmidling wrote:



The blade itself says Ambassador Cutlery Sheffield Eng. Is this an
imposter? I thought Sheffield was a brand name.

My good man, Sheffield is a city in England.


Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com

((this post edited by the moderator. C'mon, Abrasha, we've been down this
before. don't make me do this. PWR.))

--
Shirley Shone

On Fri, 24 Sep 2004 00:58:49 -0700, in ¸õ Abrasha wrote:


Peter,

You may be a saint in dealing with this [[headstrong beginner]] (edit. PWR), and
yes you ARE missing the obvious here!

It's just not done this way. Chalices are just not cast unless you want a thick
skinned one, which might be a fine metaphor for our thick skinned friend here.

I'm not missing the obvious at all. I'm simply addressing the questions one at a
time, as presented, and not jumping beyond the asked question. Jack has neither
the experience, skill, nor tools, to do this right off with raising methods,
which are of course, as you note, the traditional and correct way to make this
sort of shape ( a fine alternative would also be a spinning lathe, if one wanted
multiples). Rest assured I did point this out to him in email. But I'm not
willing to butt heads over a question that's not been asked. Jack DOES already
have the equipment and some experience in sand casting, and wanted to try making
these things using that method. So I limit my answers to trying to solve this
question. it's a valid question. suppose that shape were not a chalice,
normally done with hammers and stakes. Suppose instead it was a complex
sculptural form or some sort of similar shape but with deep complex surface
textures or decoration for which casting might well be the most efficient way.
he'd be asking the same question. He didn't ask me the best way to make this
cup, he asked me, and the group, for suggestions as to why it hasn't worked.
Simple enough question. If we stick to answering the questions he asks, life
stays simpler. And letting him explore answers according to the sequence in
which he encounters the problems, seems to let him make more sense of the
information. For the record, I tend to learn the same way, though I've always
done it in circumstances where it was much easier to follow the prescribed
sequence, rather than making one up, as Jack seems happy to do.

In this particular case, I've already suggested higher metal temps for pouring,
and he's gone so far as to get an immersion pyrometer to be better able to judge
that. We've wondered about differing sprue types and numbers, as well as alloys
that melt at lower temperatures. I'm simply become convinced that his model is
just to thin walled to cast well in a fast freezing metal, using a cold sand
mold. But who knows. I'm not that experienced in sand casting. I know I could
cast that cup in silver using my own methods, with casting investment, and i've
explained that to Jack. Eventually he may be moved to try it, or will do
something else. I don't know. That's his choice, and since this is his hobby,
and he's still enjoying the exploration, why should I do anything other than
offer what advice i can?

The only right way to do this, is the way this has been done for many
centuries. And that is to get out the hammers and stakes. You can hammer the
main body of this puppy in a day. An experienced silversmith will do it in a
few hours.


You know, it's sometimes wise to remember the old adage that experts are those
who will tell you why you cannot do a thing, while amateurs are those who
blithely go and do a thing, not knowing it was supposed to be impossible. My
crap detectors always go off when I hear a blanket statemtn like "only right way
to do this", especially when "this hasn't been quite so defined yet. Casting
that cup is not the conventional way to make what's usually called a chalice.
You're correct that the long silversmiths tradition says it's done with hammers,
sheet metal, stakes, and work. I've made a goodly number of vessels that way
myself. Don't need to ask Ted to confirm it. But i've also cast small vessels
now and then, when that better suited the piece, and i've seen certain chalices
also that were cast, because those too, were designs better cast than raised. So
it goes. Jack will, as his experience and toolbox grows, reach these conclusions
on his own. Give him time. In the meantime, he may well accidentally make some
things that traditional thought says should have been impossible, or make some
things in a totally wrong way that end up, surprisingly to you and other experts,
to actually sort of work well. Who knows. Maybe he'll turn some "wrong way"
method into some personal aesthetic that ends up working fine for him, and we'll
end up having to compete with him for gallery space.

I'm reminded, for example, of one guy who's doing interesting granulation. He
places the grains with a vacuum tweezer that's attached to a tack welder, and
it's the tack welder that's doing the permanent attachment of the grains. No
traditional granulation involved. If jack were trying this, would we be
criticizing him for not doing granulation the right way? In this case, it's an
experienced jeweler, and the suff is coming out nicely. So then suddenly it's
OK, and an innovation.

Get off your high horse here, and relax a bit about it, will ya? No harm is
being done to the craft, to you, or to Jack, when he tries things that should be
impossible or arent' the right way. He's keeping busy, involved, having fun,
learning in his own way, and is happy with his explorations, even the
frustrations and challenges they bring. Perhaps he's spending time building
square wheels and is soon to get the eureka moment that leads him to reinvent the
round one. OK. It's still a lot better way to spend one's retirement than just
being parked in front of the T.V.

And besides, while it's true an experienced smith can raise such a chalice in a
few hours, if Jack can figure out how to sand cast the things, then maybe he can
make what he wants in half that time... It all depends on just what sort of
finished object he wants to make. His choice, not ours.

Peter.

-SP- wrote:

"Jack Schmidling" wrote in message
...

Having exhausted Peter, myself and rec.crafts.metalworking, trying

to solve

the problem of casting a simple cup, I am ready to move on to

something

seemingly straightforward.

A picture of my problem cup is at

http://schmidling.netfirms.com/cup.jpg

It looks like you haven't used enough metal to pour. I would want a
bit more that what you have there...

Also, where's your gas escapes?

Anyway gas escapes will help to fill the form faster and so the form
could be filled before the fluid metal "freezes". However in that case
it does not seem to cause the problem. Otherwise the hollows would be
runded at the baseline from gas pressure. They are completely even so it
seems to be a temperature problem.


Grüße,
Heinrich Butschal

--
www.juwelen.online-boerse.org
www.meister-atelier.de
www.schmuckfabrik.de
www.medico.butschal.de

"Peter W.. Rowe,"

as you note, the traditional and correct way to make this
sort of shape ( a fine alternative would also be a spinning lathe, if one
wanted
multiples).

Actually, I am not even willing to concede that point to him.

As it turns out, this "cup" was originally a bell from which I made the
pattern. An inverted bell makes a close approximation of a wine cup and to
my knowledge, casting bells is not pushing the state of the art. The walls
are nowhere less that about 1/8" and aside from experience, one would not
consider this particularly thin.

I have a purchased wine glass (the one I put all the rubies on) that has
very much the same shape and thickness which I assume has been cast. It
is much too thick at the bottom to have been spun or hammered. I would have
used this for the pattern except I had already put on the rubies. I believe
it is brass with silver plating.

js


--
PHOTO OF THE WEEK: http://schmidling.netfirms.com/pow.htm
Astronomy, Beer, Cheese, Gems, Sausage, http://schmidling.netfirms.com

On Fri, 24 Sep 2004 07:44:06 -0700, in àõ Jack Schmidling wrote:


"Peter W.. Rowe,"

as you note, the traditional and correct way to make this
sort of shape ( a fine alternative would also be a spinning lathe, if one
wanted
multiples).

Actually, I am not even willing to concede that point to him.


....which partly explains why, when forced to edit out some of Abrasha's less
polite language, I substituted the word, "headstrong". in describing you. I hope
you were not offended. (grin)

As I also pointed out in the post you quoite, casting does indeed have times when
it's the best way to make a shape, and your two other examples, bells (which in
certain metals, are generally cast, since the coarser crystal structure obtained
gives a better sound, and in the inexpensive cast brass industries of india
(where the cup you bought may well have been made) or the like, where casting
brass is a long tradition, are two such examples. Nevertheless, as I've pointed
out, and Abrasha has pointed out, and as will almost any other classically and
properly trained metalsmith, in SILVER, the finest cups are made from sheet
metal, either with spinning lathes, or by hand hammering the metal over stakes to
the desired form. The quality of the object one can get this way is FAR superior
to a cast silver form in a long list of ways. The metal is far stronger and
harder, will take a much better polish, and can be made much lighter, which
generally in these things, is preferable both for the comfortable feel of the
piece, and the cost factor. As you've discovered large thin walled shapes aren't
that easy to cast well in silver, and the degree of flexibility and control one
can have over the shape worked with a hammer would astound you. Every material
has it's own properties, Jack, and some are better suited to casting, while
others are better suited to hand working. Brass is very easy to cast, but not as
malleable and workable as silver. So your cast brass cup can be very
inexpensive, and after some electroplating, works OK. But you'll not often find
a plated cast brass chalice being used to celebrate a mass, for example, nor will
you find any cast silver cups for sale at Tiffanies. Both will, if using silver,
use items made from sheet metal with either a spinning lathe, some sort of die
striking process, or hand forming with hammers. The latter is considered
generally to produce the finest and costliest quality of work.

Don't fight it. it's just the way it is. You're still free to, and encouraged
to, explore casting your cup. i've no problem with that. Just understand that
you're exploring a method that isn't quite the accepted best way to make that
particular item. And having found that it's easy to cast it in aluminum or zinc
(and likely, brass), yet harder to cast it in silver, your also finding for
yourself some of the reasons. If you do get a complete casting, and then go to
clean it up and polish it, you'll likely discover, in the metal quality, some of
the other reasons...

Cheers.

Peter

"Heinrich Butschal"

Anyway gas escapes will help to fill the form faster and so the form
could be filled before the fluid metal "freezes". However in that case
it does not seem to cause the problem....

Take a look at the below link to see the results of my experiments with
vents. You will note that the metal was able to rise 3" up a 1/8" hole but
would not fall down the side of the cup.

http://schmidling.netfirms.com/cup2.jpg

js
--
PHOTO OF THE WEEK: http://schmidling.netfirms.com/pow.htm
Astronomy, Beer, Cheese, Gems, Sausage, http://schmidling.netfirms.com

"Jack Schmidling" wrote in message
...
Having exhausted Peter, myself and rec.crafts.metalworking, trying to
solve
the problem of casting a simple cup, I am ready to move on to something
seemingly straightforward.

A picture of my problem cup is at http://schmidling.netfirms.com/cup.jpg

JD Williams in Birmingham produce a pewter cup about that size and shape.

JD Williams are the oldest pewterer in the UK and were founded over three
hundred years ago, and know their business.

They told me, when I asked some years ago, that it needs to be about 5mm
thick in order to get a decent consistent cast from the mould.

And that's pewter, something that flows better than silver, is easier to
flux and is worked at a much lower temperature.

--
William Black
------------------
Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords
is no basis for a system of government

Oh please Peter, get off it.

There is a very good reason things are done a certain way FOR CENTURIES! No
matter how much our friend Jack it trying to do it his way, nothing is going to
change that.

When I hired my first apprentice, I told him to rent and watch the movie "The
Karate Kid". I did this, because to me, this movie was not at all about karate,
but about a master/apprentice relationship.

Mr. Miyagi says "Wax on, wax off" to his apprentice. The apprentice hates it.
The master says "Don't question it, do it. I do not need to explain". Later on
in the movie, the apprentice reaches enlightenment when he realizes the purpose
of "wax on, wax off", and the depth of the lessons.

It is no different in teaching metalsmithing. There is a lot of mastery in this
newsgroup, and a lot of willingness to share it. I have been participating in
this group since April 7, 1996, which is the earliest date I was able to find a
posting record of. Over the years I have shared a lot of my knowledge with
people willing to learn and willing to take to good and the bad from me. Never
until now has an unmitigated jackass like Jack come around and demand to be
instructed to fit his way. It doesn't work that way in teaching a craft. Or
any teaching for that matter. The student doesn't get to dictate the
curriculum, the teacher does.
You want to make a chalice? This is how it's done. Fine with me. You want to
**** against the wind? Fine, you'll get wet. Don't come asking me how to ****
against the wind without getting wet. He is a stubborn jackass, period. And
until he proves otherwise, and is willing to learn by the rules, established
centuries ago, he can go ahead and keep ****ing against the wind until his face
turns blue. If he were my apprentice, he would have been out on his ass months
ago. This would have been his loss, not mine.

Back in Holland we have a saying, that goes: "Zachte heelmeesters, maken
stinkende wonden". Literal translation: "gentle healing masters make stinking
wounds". Peter, you are the healing master here, and all you are doing is
creating a monster, with an ability to create objects of exceptionally **** poor
craftsmanship.

It is not up to me to judge Jack's ability to design, or to judge his
aesthetics. I am however well qualified to judge the craftsmanship of his
work. It is of the lowest possible order, and if he continues this way, it will
always stay there. He will never get any better. The road to mastery is a hard
one, and it not the road Jack has chosen to take. He is a dabbler. How do they
say it in English? The man is a "Jack of all trades, a master of none".

In my studio I keep an interesting article that I share from time to time with
people. It is an article published in Esquire Magazine about the road to
mastery. Right now I'm blanking who wrote it. I believe it was George Leonard,
but I'm not sure.

I challenge Jack to take a trip to Pforzheim sometime and visit the
Goldschmiedeschule (School for goldsmithing) there. He should visit the lobby
there, where the work of the students is displayed. Work of teenagers mostly
between the ages of 14 and 16, who have only been doing goldsmithing for 1 or 2
years (it is a 2 year program). And who in most cases have never touched a
piece of metal in their lives before. He'll wet his pants in shame.

Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com

Jack Schmidling wrote:


As it turns out, this "cup" was originally a bell from which I made the
pattern. An inverted bell makes a close approximation of a wine cup and to
my knowledge, casting bells is not pushing the state of the art.

A bell is not a chalice. You are comparing apples to oranges.

Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com

"Heinrich Butschal" wrote in message
...
-SP- wrote:
It looks like you haven't used enough metal to pour. I would
want a
bit more that what you have there...

Also, where's your gas escapes?

Anyway gas escapes will help to fill the form faster and so the form
could be filled before the fluid metal "freezes". However in that
case
it does not seem to cause the problem. Otherwise the hollows would
be
runded at the baseline from gas pressure. They are completely even
so it
seems to be a temperature problem.

Hang on... Is that a cup *without* a stem?? I was thinking the sprue
'was' the stem, heh.

Hmm.. Ok, plenty of metal there, so I'll go along with what you're
saying. A couple of ways around this problem (as well as the
temperature issue), is to wiggle the model around to create a thicker
wall. Also, I would shorten the sprue too. I think it would cast ok
then.

-SP-




Grüße,
Heinrich Butschal

--
www.juwelen.online-boerse.org
www.meister-atelier.de
www.schmuckfabrik.de
www.medico.butschal.de