Soldering

If its a genuine tiffany item , then the slowest cold technique is going
to be the safest. Heat to melt the solder is just too risky.
So long as you can differentiate between the original material and the
added solder then youll be ok.
Im not familiar with this vase but the principle of carefully scraping
away the added solder is valid.
an image would be of great help in advising you.

Ian Johnson wrote:
A little off topic... is there a way to remove soft solder? Years ago, I
found a Tiffany bud vase in a junk bin @ an antique store. The vase was in
terrible shape; it looked like a dog chewed on it & someone tried to "fix"
it with soft solder. I've been using a flat graver to get the bulk of the
solder off but was wondering if there's an easier approach.
thanks,
Ian
www.skylinesilver.com

"Peter W. Rowe" wrote in message
...

On Wed, 07 Jul 2004 07:51:46 -0700, in ¤ô Jack Schmidling

wrote:

In spite of the flack, I have aquired a good deal of useful information

here

but I am really hung up on the criticism of soft solder.

Jack, you're correct that soft solders can work in terms of a mechanically
functional joint. but there are significant differences between jewelry
soldering needs and electronics soldering needs.

For one thing, in electronics, virtually all but the tiniest (surface

mount)

componants use the solder more for the electrical connection, having

established

a pretty decent mechanical connection first. Leads go through circuit

board

holes, and often get bent away from the holes a bit. even without the

bend, the

componants are mechanically held. In other cases, wires wrap around

terminals,

or otherwise are mechanically held prior to being soldered. Also, in most
electronics soldering, there is a considerable excess of solder used. the
solder usually forms a mound over the joint. Plus, is often flows into a
complex shape, ie the hole in the circuit board, or around a wire, etc.

This is

mechanically quite different from jewelry soldering where often one has a

thin,

tight, capillary joint between only two small flat surfaces, and one

desires no

solder outside of that seam to show. The soft solders are stronger in the
previous example, where the solder layer is substantially thicker.

Indeed,

jewelry findings made especially for soft soldering are usually made with

a

hollowed out pad that gets filled with a small puddle of the solder, and

this is

then applied to the work, so the joint, while it appears capillary to the

eye,

actually consists of a considerably thicker mass of the solder.

But the main objections to soft soldering are aesthetic. The stuff just

doesn't

match silver or gold, and as you observe, makes a mess. once used, one

can no

longer use higher melting solders or repair methods, as at higher temps,

even

traces of soft solder quickly etch deep holes in the precious metals. We
jewelers prefer to use methods, when we can, which give the best looking
results, give the strongest joints, and are as versatile as possilbe in

terms of

letting ourselves, or the next repair jeweler, work on the piece if needed
without running into a time bomb. Soft solder does indeed have a place in
jewelry work, but it must be a carefully considered one, since it's use is

often

less attractive, adaquate but still less strong, and subsequently more

limiting

to later work, than the use of hard solders.

Note that much of the above applies mostly to work in silver or gold. The
moment you get into working on plated vessels, pewter, or some of the base
metals, there can often be much better reasons to use soft solder. With

pewter,

it is in fact the fully correct solder to use unless you're actually

welding the

stuff without solder at all. With plated or costume quality work, often

the

work cannot withstand the temps of hard soldering without damage. In

these

cases, sometimes the best result will be obtained by preparing the items

to be

soldered by attaching a pad or footing, with hard solder, that can then

provide

a more solid joint with soft solder.

Peter

Lamedeer wrote:


I don't wish to debate the matter since I have nothing to gain. I have
extensive experience in both areas and I have said my piece. Hopefully,
someone will gain.


"... extensive experience ..."? I doubt it. Again you demonstrate very
clearly, that you do not know what you are talking about.


When I asked him (naturally) how he soldered things he said he always used a
snippet of the gold he was soldering. That if the snippet was small enough
it would melt first and make the join.


The fact that the small piece would melt first, has absolutely no bearing on
anything. It onluymeans that it was heated more than the seam. The metal
around the joint has to reach the same (melting) temperature as the filler
material in order for the filler material to fill (flow into) the joint. If it
melts first, without the metal around the seam also melting and entering a
eutectic state, it would not flow into the seam, because the seam is not hot
enough yet.

What you describe is "welding", not "soldering". In order for this to work, the
surrounding metal of the joint also has to flow, in order for the filler
material to enter the joint. With soldering this is not the case, the material
to be joined stays solid, because the melting point of the solder is well below
the melting point of the parts to be joint.

In jewelry, welding is always done with the same material, as the material to be
connected. Which has the same melting point as the materials to be joined. In
soldering, a filler material with a lower melting point is always used.

Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com

May be that folks need to look at something like this:

http://www.handyharmancanada.com/hbp..._soldering.htm


because "technically" jewelry makers and silversmiths/goldsmiths don't make
"solder" joins at all.


http://www.handyharmancanada.com/The...Book/bbook.htm



--

Don Thompson

~~~~~~~~

"Peter W. Rowe" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 10 Jul 2004 10:38:51 -0700, in ôô "Lamedeer"

wrote:

Hello Peter,

Your concepts regarding soft soldering are incorrect. If they were not
there
would be no space program. You might check out the NASA studies for more
information. Company sponsored studies are usually self serving.

perhaps in the exact details, I was incorrect, as in characterizing soft
solders
as similar to a glue. I DO know it's not quite like that. But in
practice, it
resembles a glue joint more than it does a gold soldered joint, in terms
of the
fact that dissimilar material is used to fill a gap between the parts
being
joined, and that most of the bond is simply the wetting action of that
agent
adhereing to the parts. Now, I DO know that with soft soldering, there is
indeed some surface penetration of the tin/lead (etc) alloy into the
bonded
surfaces. So it's not qutie like a glue (unless one things of glues on
somewhat
porous materials). However, the depth of that penetration is shallower,
and
given the low hardness, tensile strength, shear strength, etc, of the soft
solder material, that penetration makes little difference in the end
strength of
the bond, since a shearing force, or peeling the joint apart, can easily
simply
break the solder itself, even if it doesn't cause the solder to fully
seperate
from the bond as would a failed glue joint. In soft soldering, the narrow
bond
zone, coupled with the very large differences in strengths, hardness,
ductirlity, etc, of the solder compared to the bonded parts will
concentrate
stresses within the bond zone much more, I think. In hard soldering,
first
off, the solders used generally are metals in the same family as those
being
joined. With melting points in the same general order of magnitude, or
near
enough to it, so that when the solder flows, considerable dissolving of
the
parent metal into the molten solder mass can occur, as well as dissipation
of
the solder alloys into the still solid parent metal. So the bond zone is
a much
more diffused and indistinct layer, especially with the harder grade
solders.
This makes the joints considerably harder to break. Of course, the
"easier" the
solder grade used, the less this applies. Some of the easy grades of
platinum
solder, for example, contain little, if any, actual platinum, being mostly
palladium and silver and the like. Solder a platinum wire to a platinum
object
with, say, 1100 grade solder, and then try to peel it away, and you'll be
surprised at how easily it can be done. In my view, that solder joint is
performing much like a high temp version of tin/lead solder. Not enough
surface
penetration, and too dissimilar a solder composition, for good strength.

Please understand that I'm not an engineer, nor academically trained in
metalurgy. My training is in the arts and metalsmithing and jewelry and
gemology, etc. So my terminology may not match that used by NASA in
describing
how solders perform. However, I've been making things in precious and
non-ferrous metal since the late 60s, and electronics have been a modest
side
hobby/interest for much of that time too. So my familiarity with hard
solders
as used in jewelry, and with soft solders as used both in jewelry and as
used in
electronics assembly, goes back quite a while. I base my observations and
statements simply on what i've observed to happen with the stuff.

And the simplest characterization of those observations is that with a
solder
joint, the closer the composition of the solder matches that of the metals
being
joined, both in type of metal and in physical properties of the metals
involved,
the better the joint will be in terms of strength and appearance. Joints
made
with more highly dissimilar materials may still work, but will be more
likely to
present some sort of problem or objectionable characteristic, either
aesthetic
or physical.

Soft solders are not automatically some sort of evil thing in jewelry.
Indeed
they're very useful at times. one can avoid annealing parts, heat
damaging
parts, or simply thje cost and bother of the cleanup that may be required
after
a higher temp solder joint. Used with joints that are properly designed
for
this type of solder, the results can be entirely satisfactory, and such
materials are indeed widely used both in jewelry and holloware. The key
is
simply that the joint, whether done with hard solder or Tix solder, or
even glue
or a laser welder, needs to be properly designed for the type of bonding
method
being used.

Peter

"Don T"

May be that folks need to look at something like this:


http://www.handyharmancanada.com/hbp..._soldering.htm

Great link! This would have saved about 90% of the bandwidth expended in
this discussion.

because "technically" jewelry makers and silversmiths/goldsmiths don't
make
"solder" joins at all.

As the word "brazing" is derived from brass, the vocabulary of the subject
is a real mess.

Just so happens, I got some Handy Flux, silver solder and Tix solder and
flux and have been futzing around with both. Haven't gotten very far with
the silver solder but this link provides the methodology which I could only
guess at... like flux first? turns clear when hot? Good stuff.

But I thought I read somewhere else that heating the flux destroys it.....

js

--
PHOTO OF THE WEEK: http://schmidling.netfirms.com/weekly.htm
Astronomy, Beer, Cheese, Gems, Sausage, http://schmidling.netfirms.com

On Tue, 13 Jul 2004 21:39:33 -0700, in ôô Jack Schmidling wrote:

http://www.handyharmancanada.com/hbp..._soldering.htm

Great link! This would have saved about 90% of the bandwidth expended in
this discussion.

True. good info. And backtrack a bit to the root site,
http://www.handyharmancanada.com , for even more good stuff.

I'd note at least one difference between their description of soldering, and how
many jewelers do it. Their site says bring the solder to the already heated
joint. That assumes, in their description, solder in the form of strip or wire,
and the procedure is indeed often done this way, especially with larger work in
silver. In goldwork, or smaller silver work, we often use a "solder pick",
which can be a sharpened bit of iron rod, or even better, tungsten or the like
(doesn't melt or contaminate the solder. I use TIG welding electrodes...)
that can be used to pick up a small bit of solder which you've just melted into
a ball with the torch flame (after putting just a bit of flux on it, perhaps).
now the pick can be used to place that precise amount of solder on the joint
when the joint reaches the right temp. More precise than bringing a whole
solder wire to the joint, which can sometimes give you too much solder. And in
gold or platinum work, it's also very common practice, and perhaps even better
practice in some cases, to use small clipped pieces of solder called paillons (a
french word). These are placed on the joint prior to fully heating it. The
flux holds it in place, and one tries to take care to heat the joint area, not
just that solder chip. This method can give the most precise control over
placement and amount of solder used.


As the word "brazing" is derived from brass, the vocabulary of the subject
is a real mess.


True enouigh, at least from the perspective of the non jewelers. We in the
jewelry business are used enough to the term that we don't generally get
confused about what we're talking about. It is, perhaps, an illustration of
that old principal whereby each profession tends to invent it's own version of
the language with which to talk to itself...

Just so happens, I got some Handy Flux, silver solder and Tix solder and
flux and have been futzing around with both. Haven't gotten very far with
the silver solder but this link provides the methodology which I could only
guess at... like flux first? turns clear when hot? Good stuff.

Always flux first. The flux excludes oxygen from the joint, as well as
dissolving any existing oxides. Without it, solder doesn't flow well, if at
all, at least not when soldering in air with a torch. Be aware that handy flux
used for "hard soldering", and Tix flux used with tix solder or "soft solders"
are totally different materials. They are NOT interchangeable. Handy flux
won't help with soft soldering, nor will TIX flux help with hard
soldering/brazing.


But I thought I read somewhere else that heating the flux destroys it.....

overheating it beyond it's normal working range destroys it. And overly
prolonged heating will eventually destroy it too, since all the time it's hot,
it's working to dissolve oxides, removing them from the metal. It will
eventually become depleted/burned out, even if there don't seem to be visible
oxides for it to remove. So you don't have 'forever" in which to work on a
joint before the flux burns out. how fast that happens depends on the type of
metal being soldered, the temps used, and how much flux you've got on the piece.

Also not that Handy Flux is a very active flux in part because it contains
active fluoride compounds. While that means it works very well, it also means
it's important that you have good ventillation when you use it. The fumes given
off when it's hot are not at all healthy. If this is a problem with your
soldering area, then obtain one of the fluoride free fluxes that are available
through any good jewelry tools supplier. Dandix is one, Griffin fluxes are
another. And many jewelers use a "so-called" self pickling liquid flux called
Batterns, or one like it. These types don't burn out as quickly, but are also
not quite as active, needing you to be more sure before hand, that the metal is
good and clean. Batterns has the advantage, on gold especially, that you seem
to get less fire scale adjacent to the joint than with Handy flux. Not sure
why...

Peter