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The Beadmakers Liberation Front



 
 
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  #21  
Old February 11th 04, 04:49 AM
KDK
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Nope. I had marked your other post as unread so I could reply to it. I
totally agree that what I'm going to do with the bead(s) plays a part in how
much I feel I can pay. I'll pay more for a bead for me than one that I'm
going to put into a piece to try and sell.

I also look at the size of the sets - I tend to not use an entire set in any
piece I make. So I may see a large set that I love, but can't see being
able to make enough pieces out of it (repetition gets old for me) so I may
not buy or bid.

And I'm watching this thread here and at WC since I'm just getting started
selling finished pieces and hopefully, when I think my beads are ready, to
sell beads also.

Kathy K

"Christina Peterson" wrote in message
news:[email protected]..
Am I the only person who works with lampwork beads who faces this problem?

Tina


"Christina Peterson" wrote in message
news:[email protected]..
One really big thing about pricing beads is how they will be used.

If I'm only going to buy beads for myself, as an end product, then

paying
retail is a reasonable thing for me to to for those few beads. But if

I'm
going to put them in jewelry to sell I have to work it differently.

Take the cottage rose flowers and bunny sets for $200. What could a
necklace of those beads be sold for? According to most formulas, I

should
double the price of my materials and add in my time at $40 per hour (for

the
amount of time a fast professional would take to make it), to come up

with
wholesale and double that for a retail price. So theoretically, it

should
sell for At the very very least $900. More if it is especially well
designed.

OK then do it backwards. If a necklace of those beads could be sold for
$500, and I am selling my skills as an artist, not as a retailer, I

would
only get $250 wholesale, which would barely cover my costs to make the
necklace and get it to the gallery.

Now, I don't think THAT is reasonable.

I'm finding that when I make jewelry from a set of lampwork, my mark up

on
materials is very small, and I can't make more than a profit of $20 or

$30
on a necklace that will sell at the gallery for $150 to $200.

Tina


"meijhana" wrote in message
...
I was impressed by this, and wanted to share!!!

http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/show...73#post2015373

I think we should adopt it as jewelry designers, too (and that means

you,
too, Harry, both as a jewelry designer and as a supplies crafter).

Too
many
times do we hear "I just want to get my money back", and with this, I

think
we can start to educate others, both as buyer and as fellow seller.

Mary


--
Mr. Winky says "Glass shards are beautiful, but they can be

painful." --
www.shardsoglass.com
================
MeijhanaDesigns - Unique Earrings and More!
http://www.meijhanadesigns.com
mary at meijhanadesigns dot com

HandcraftedJewelry.com
http://snipurl.com/45w5
check out my store!








Ads
  #22  
Old February 11th 04, 04:50 AM
KDK
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Did they think your wholesale price was too high? or were they upset
because you were selling items less than they were?

Kathy K
"Karen_AZ" wrote in message
news:[email protected]..

"Christina Peterson" wrote in message
news:[email protected]..
Am I the only person who works with lampwork beads who faces this

problem?

Tina


It's interesting, my show partner and I had a run-in with some small store
owners over the weekend. We both had our beads priced for wholesale since

it
was primarily a wholesale show. I was willing to take a deeper discount

for
a reasonable quantity, and said so (30% off $300 purchase). These ladies
were very unhappy with this and quite vocal about it, saying we were
obviously unwilling to work with them. Well, yes, we were. I'm not
cutthroating my own income to make their store sales easier. Nobody else
complained, and I came home to 3 large orders, so obviously I'm doing
something right. I do appreciate their position, but I think they had
difficulty in even perceiving mine. I politely told them I had beads in
several stores already, sold at the same prices. If their local market

can't
handle that, there's not much I can do about it.


--
KarenK
www.desertdreameraz.com
Ebay: http://stores.ebay.com/id=62631780&ssPageName=L2
Justbeads: http://www.justbeads.com/search/ql.cfm?s=DesertDreamer




  #23  
Old February 11th 04, 05:02 AM
KDK
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

I just read your reply on WC. I thought you did it very well. And you do
make some really good points. I too have mixed feelings about this whole
thing.

I don't yet sell beads, hope to one day. I do make pieces with lampwork
beads. I understand wanting to get full value for your work, but I feel
uneasy with the idea that "everyone" should do XXXXX. I know a beadmaker
that won't sell on ebay at all - to her that is undervaluing her work, so
she only sells at shows and galleries. If that works for her great, but for
some people ebay is what works.

One of the problems with selling art is that it is sooooo subjective. I've
gotten beads at what I thought was a steal, I've paid full value for some
beads, and I've probably over paid for others. To someone else what I
thought was a steal they may think is a fair price, etc.

I also understand that it's easy to undervalue your own work (still working
on that with my jewelry), and some may not even realize that they are doing
it.

Lots of shades of gray in this - it's surely not just black and white -
raise our prices and all will be well with the bead world.

Kathy K
"Kandice Seeber" wrote in message
...
***sigh*** and I just posted a response over there. Time to go hide in

the
bunker. Why the hell am I a glutton for punishement? Seriously, I think I
bring up some good points, but that whole thread is so full of "Amen!"

"I'm
in!" "You go girl!"and "Me too" posts that I am afraid mine will not be

well
received.

--
Kandice Seeber
Air & Earth Designs
http://www.lampwork.net

I have mixed feelings about that whole thread. On the one hand, the
intentions are good, I am sure. The people are mostly nice, hardworking

and
well-intentioned. On the other hand, price fixing is illegal and

annoying.
I agree about pricing your things in such a way that it mirrors value

and
hard work. However, I don't agree with a huge group governing that, or
trying to control things. But I am pretty anti-government, so maybe

it's
just that. Or maybe it's because I haven't had my coffee yet today,

and
I am cranky.
--
Kandice Seeber
Air & Earth Designs
http://www.lampwork.net

Rita says:
"....when 1/2 of the market is undercutting themselves it has not only

a
trickle down effect but a landslide."

This is what I've always said. It's true, it affects all our sister

and
brother
beadmakers, jewelrymakers --- and artists as a whole population.

The way I said it recently was deemed unacceptable by some -- but I've

been
fighting for this for a long, long, long time. People just don't

listen
when
you say "Increase your prices, because it affects us all." I wanted

to
be
dramatic because the message doesn't get through people's heads, as is
evidenced by this thread on Wet Canvas. "The Beadmakers' Liberation

Front"?
Drama. You have to paint in bright colors for people to GET IT.
~~
Sooz
-------
"Those in the cheaper seats clap. The rest of you rattle your

jewelry."
John
Lennon (1940 - 1980) Royal Varieties Performance
~ Dr. Sooz's Bead Links
http://airandearth.netfirms.com/soozlinkslist.html







  #24  
Old February 11th 04, 06:37 AM
Christina Peterson
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Karen, your BINs are very reasonably priced. I can't imagine your wholesale
being anything but a good deal. As for 30% off $300, that's a good deal
too.

Tina


"Karen_AZ" wrote in message
news:[email protected]..

"Christina Peterson" wrote in message
news:[email protected]..
Am I the only person who works with lampwork beads who faces this

problem?

Tina


It's interesting, my show partner and I had a run-in with some small store
owners over the weekend. We both had our beads priced for wholesale since

it
was primarily a wholesale show. I was willing to take a deeper discount

for
a reasonable quantity, and said so (30% off $300 purchase). These ladies
were very unhappy with this and quite vocal about it, saying we were
obviously unwilling to work with them. Well, yes, we were. I'm not
cutthroating my own income to make their store sales easier. Nobody else
complained, and I came home to 3 large orders, so obviously I'm doing
something right. I do appreciate their position, but I think they had
difficulty in even perceiving mine. I politely told them I had beads in
several stores already, sold at the same prices. If their local market

can't
handle that, there's not much I can do about it.


--
KarenK
www.desertdreameraz.com
Ebay: http://stores.ebay.com/id=62631780&ssPageName=L2
Justbeads: http://www.justbeads.com/search/ql.cfm?s=DesertDreamer




  #25  
Old February 11th 04, 06:37 AM
Christina Peterson
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Here's jewelry offerred by a beadmaker.
http://www.blackberrybeads.com/Finis...Necklaces.html
Considering the prices for these items, I guess I should be charging $250
for wholesale.

I'm not picking on anyone. I'm just trying to get a feel for this.

Tina



"KDK" wrote in message
...
Nope. I had marked your other post as unread so I could reply to it. I
totally agree that what I'm going to do with the bead(s) plays a part in

how
much I feel I can pay. I'll pay more for a bead for me than one that I'm
going to put into a piece to try and sell.

I also look at the size of the sets - I tend to not use an entire set in

any
piece I make. So I may see a large set that I love, but can't see being
able to make enough pieces out of it (repetition gets old for me) so I may
not buy or bid.

And I'm watching this thread here and at WC since I'm just getting started
selling finished pieces and hopefully, when I think my beads are ready, to
sell beads also.

Kathy K

"Christina Peterson" wrote in message
news:[email protected]..
Am I the only person who works with lampwork beads who faces this

problem?

Tina


"Christina Peterson" wrote in message
news:[email protected]..
One really big thing about pricing beads is how they will be used.

If I'm only going to buy beads for myself, as an end product, then

paying
retail is a reasonable thing for me to to for those few beads. But if

I'm
going to put them in jewelry to sell I have to work it differently.

Take the cottage rose flowers and bunny sets for $200. What could a
necklace of those beads be sold for? According to most formulas, I

should
double the price of my materials and add in my time at $40 per hour

(for
the
amount of time a fast professional would take to make it), to come up

with
wholesale and double that for a retail price. So theoretically, it

should
sell for At the very very least $900. More if it is especially well
designed.

OK then do it backwards. If a necklace of those beads could be sold

for
$500, and I am selling my skills as an artist, not as a retailer, I

would
only get $250 wholesale, which would barely cover my costs to make the
necklace and get it to the gallery.

Now, I don't think THAT is reasonable.

I'm finding that when I make jewelry from a set of lampwork, my mark

up
on
materials is very small, and I can't make more than a profit of $20 or

$30
on a necklace that will sell at the gallery for $150 to $200.

Tina


"meijhana" wrote in message
...
I was impressed by this, and wanted to share!!!

http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/show...73#post2015373

I think we should adopt it as jewelry designers, too (and that means

you,
too, Harry, both as a jewelry designer and as a supplies crafter).

Too
many
times do we hear "I just want to get my money back", and with this,

I
think
we can start to educate others, both as buyer and as fellow seller.

Mary


--
Mr. Winky says "Glass shards are beautiful, but they can be

painful." --
www.shardsoglass.com
================
MeijhanaDesigns - Unique Earrings and More!
http://www.meijhanadesigns.com
mary at meijhanadesigns dot com

HandcraftedJewelry.com
http://snipurl.com/45w5
check out my store!










  #26  
Old February 11th 04, 06:44 AM
AmazeR
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

I don't usually top-post, but I think this needs to be said again....

Mavis



On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 02:40:45 +0000, DreamBeadr wrote:

Wow, I have so many issues I could bring up about this concept. =o)

First, I would like to comment that I am offended when people use the
term Nazi lightly. There is nothing even remotely similar to
lampworkers and a Nazi.

Second, while I feel the concept of people placing a personal value on
their own work is a good one, determining an industry standard, just
because you happen to produce a product within a certain category, just
won't work. That would be like asking all beadweavers to charge at least
X amount of dollars per hour for their work. Their lives may be so busy
that their hourly worth is tremendous, but they may not yet have all the
skills to produce a quality piece of beadwork.

Third, I have been involved in the beading world for over 30 years now.
I started creating simple beaded pieces with my Grandmother at age 8.
By age 12,
I was selling simple beaded jewelry to friends, at the beach and at
small
craft shows. By 18 I was selling beads. By 25 I had an established
retail store.
While I am not the most experienced person in this industry, I am very
experienced. I have made it my life to learn as much about beads in all
their forms as I can. Along with that self-education comes a bit of
understanding on how the market (as it relates to beads and beading)
works. There will always be the person who feels they need to "undercut"
the next guy to stand out. There will always be the person who feels
the "value" of their time is worth more than the average market will
bear. There will always be the person who understands their worth, and
is willing to work with the market demand to find that happy medium.

That being said, there is such a tremendous influx of lampworkers at
this time, that the market will be thin. This is the progression of any
industry. As the market thins, your competition increases. You can
compensate for that by looking within ones self and determining what it
is you as an individual can do to change. You can use your competition
to better yourself. (which, I feel, is what should always be done)
This same set of standard rules of business apply to any field.
Beadmakers, beadsellers, beaders, etc. Your service, your reputation,
your style, your adaptability, your personal input into the industry,
all of these things are what can help set you apart from your
competition. This is what will raise the value of what you have to
offer. Not what others choose to sell for. The value of the beads I
sell are in direct relation to their quality, my service, my reputation,
and the volume I sell them in. They are not, nor will they ever be, in
relation to what others sell theirs for.
I do however, work under a standard industry guideline. I do not
intentionally undercut others and I do not overprice. Were I to make my
own beads for sale, I would again follow along those same guidelines. I
would understand what the market can bear, I would learn where and who
my customers are, and I would supply them with what they want at the
prices they demand. If I were really lucky, I would be some of the very
few who know how to escalate themselves to the top of that imaginary
list of the best of the best.. =o)
If the online auction places are not bringing you the dollar amount you
feel you deserve, then find the location that will. It works better to
locate your customers rather than try to force yourself upon them.

While the entire bead industry can and should be viewed as one big
family, it is the individuals within that family that make it what it
is.

A think a revolution to help others learn to value themselves as
artists, craftspeople, creators, sellers, business people, etc would
garner much more worth.

Beki
http://www.whimbeads.com

  #27  
Old February 11th 04, 06:52 AM
AmazeR
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 03:06:57 +0000, Christina Peterson wrote:

If someone makes a professional product, I consider them professionals.
That's why I differentiated between them and beginners/hobbyists. I'm
obviously referring to the a level of expertise as opposd to how much money
someone is making.

And frankly, I looked at Wet Canvas and went to some of the bead site of the
people making comments. Not all of them made nice beads.

Tina


Sorry, I got the wrong end of the stick..

If the Quality is the same (not so likely comparing beginners/hobbyists to
professionals) then the value should surely be similar.. Having said
this, I agree that not so nice beads should not be priced anywhere near
the professionally made/quality made beads. They are simply not the same
product, hence, not worth the same $ value.

The extra $ worth I was talking about was if the bead was under-valued
when put up for sale - Not as compared to a professionally made bead.

Hope this makes better sense..

Mavis

  #28  
Old February 11th 04, 07:16 AM
AmazeR
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 06:37:55 +0000, Christina Peterson wrote:

Here's jewelry offerred by a beadmaker.
http://www.blackberrybeads.com/Finis...Necklaces.html
Considering the prices for these items, I guess I should be charging $250
for wholesale.

I'm not picking on anyone. I'm just trying to get a feel for this.

Tina



ROFL - Get their prices!! I wonder if they sell any..

It surely makes your point...

Mavis
:-))


  #29  
Old February 11th 04, 10:46 AM
Kandice Seeber
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Freakin' well said, Beki!! I think the group is well-intentioned and made
up of good people. I also think that they need to consider that their
liberation front may not change the market to what they want to change it
to, because that just isn't the way it works on ebay.
I agree about the use of the term Nazi as well. While the group *is* trying
to get people to not post 99 cent auctions, and to raise their prices in
general, several have come forward and said that trying to police pricing
just isn't fair. Some others came right out and said they *do* wish there
was a price guideline that everyone had to follow, and that they should call
out certain lampworkers and try to get them to change. That's what got me
fired up. But Nazi just isn't the right term, and is pretty mean, actually.

Here's what I posted there earlier today. I got several private messages
that were positive, but most people in the thread have not responded to what
I said.

""holding breath, jumping in

Okay. I wasn't going to post anything in this thread, but after reading it
all, I really want to now. I applaud the good intentions. I love Rita -
she's fabulous, as an artist and as a person.
However, I have a few issues with this Liberation Group, and I am going to
post my opinions about it, while still trying to honor the fact that this
whole idea is about empowering and respecting art.

Issue #1, which was brought up by someone else (thank goodness, otherwise I
would be too afraid to post my thoughts) - 99 cent auctions are not always
about perceived value. I have said this before and I will say it again - I
post 99 cent bead sets on ebay to reduce ebay fees, and because I have
confidence that my beads will get a good price. I have only been
disappointed once or twice. eBay is an auction house, *not* a retail outlet.
It's a game to many cusotmers. People do need to ba a little more lenient
about price, but I *do* understand the need to ask for prices you can
accept. That means when you list something, you need to be ready for what
the market decides to do with it. So admonishing people for listing at 99
cents or 9.99 or 99.99 or what have you, is really not something that I see
as good. A couple of artists have actually been named here in this thread,
and some have been alluded to. That's not fair.

Issue #2, which is a broad and multi-faceted issue - Everyone in this art
field needs to take a good long look at if and why they are not selling
their pieces for what they would like to. There's a whole huge range of
skill in this group. Some beadmakers / glass artists cannot command higher
prices due to a whole bunch of reasons that need to be addressed. You can't
just increase your prices, stand back and watch the money pour in. You need
to consider your buyers. You're not letting them in on this group action -
they will have no idea why you're doing what you're doing.
To raise prices, you also need to raise the bar where quality is concerned.
I am not just talking about the quality of the bead itself - I also mean the
quality of service, and the quality of the auctions themselves. Someone
posted guidelines on their web site and was torn to pieces on this forum,
even though she is a buyer who spends a lot of money on lampwork. Customers
need to be listened to. I know we all just want to make what we want and
have it sell, but the bottom line is that the market does not always work
exactly that way. There needs to be a blend of market research and artistic
expression. If pink is really in this season, that's going to be what sells
a lot. If you decide not to go with that flow, because you hate pink, that's
totally fine, but you need to keep that in mind when pink stuff is selling
for higher than your stuff. That's an over-simplified example, of course.
And you know, I see a LOT of people complaining about ebay. Yet, there are
successes on ebay *all the time* in the very categories we sell in. We all
need to look at that and figure out *why*. I am not saying to ask those
sellers for their secrets, or try and copy them. I am saying that we need to
focus on bettering ourselves as artists. People have success because they
make it. They pay their dues, work like dogs, have talent, and *make their
success*.
Stop complaining about ebay sucking. Start doing your homework and figuring
out why ebay sucks for you. It's not always a "slow time of year" there.

Issue #3 - ebay is not black and white. It's a grey whale, baby. There's no
"one way" to make it work. There's no one answer. There are hundreds, maybe
thousands, of lampworkers listing there. You may think this group is large,
here, but it's only a small fraction of the lampworkers listing on ebay.
Your group may not get the results you're looking for, so be prepared for
that.

Okay - I know I have been the person to post an opposing opinion on several
of these types of issues on this forum. If y'all want me to go away, just
let me know. I can handle that. But the many new threads about ebay being
crap, and complaining about not getting the prices you want for your beads
is getting really irksome to me. Maybe it's because I am not having the same
problems you all are. And you know what? No one ever asks me why. Does any
one care why?""

--
Kandice Seeber
Air & Earth Designs
http://www.lampwork.net

Wow, I have so many issues I could bring up about this concept. =o)

First, I would like to comment that I am offended when people use the term

Nazi
lightly. There is nothing even remotely similar to lampworkers and a

Nazi.

Second, while I feel the concept of people placing a personal value on

their
own work is a good one, determining an industry standard, just because you
happen to produce a product within a certain category, just won't work.
That would be like asking all beadweavers to charge at least X amount of
dollars per hour for their work. Their lives may be so busy that their

hourly
worth is tremendous, but they may not yet have all the skills to produce a
quality piece of beadwork.

Third, I have been involved in the beading world for over 30 years now. I
started creating simple beaded pieces with my Grandmother at age 8. By

age 12,
I was selling simple beaded jewelry to friends, at the beach and at small
craft shows. By 18 I was selling beads. By 25 I had an established

retail
store.
While I am not the most experienced person in this industry, I am very
experienced. I have made it my life to learn as much about beads in all

their
forms as I can. Along with that self-education comes a bit of

understanding on
how the market (as it relates to beads and beading) works.
There will always be the person who feels they need to "undercut" the next

guy
to stand out. There will always be the person who feels the "value" of

their
time is worth more than the average market will bear. There will always

be the
person who understands their worth, and is willing to work with the market
demand to find that happy medium.

That being said, there is such a tremendous influx of lampworkers at this

time,
that the market will be thin. This is the progression of any industry.

As the
market thins, your competition increases.
You can compensate for that by looking within ones self and determining

what it
is you as an individual can do to change.
You can use your competition to better yourself. (which, I feel, is what
should always be done) This same set of standard rules of business apply

to
any field. Beadmakers, beadsellers, beaders, etc.
Your service, your reputation, your style, your adaptability, your

personal
input into the industry, all of these things are what can help set you

apart
from your competition. This is what will raise the value of what you have

to
offer. Not what others choose to sell for.
The value of the beads I sell are in direct relation to their quality, my
service, my reputation, and the volume I sell them in.
They are not, nor will they ever be, in relation to what others sell

theirs
for.
I do however, work under a standard industry guideline. I do not

intentionally
undercut others and I do not overprice.
Were I to make my own beads for sale, I would again follow along those

same
guidelines. I would understand what the market can bear, I would learn

where
and who my customers are, and I would supply them with what they want at

the
prices they demand. If I were really lucky, I would be some of the very

few
who know how to escalate themselves to the top of that imaginary list of

the
best of the best.. =o)
If the online auction places are not bringing you the dollar amount you

feel
you deserve, then find the location that will.
It works better to locate your customers rather than try to force yourself

upon
them.

While the entire bead industry can and should be viewed as one big family,

it
is the individuals within that family that make it what it is.

A think a revolution to help others learn to value themselves as artists,
craftspeople, creators, sellers, business people, etc would garner much

more
worth.

Beki
http://www.whimbeads.com



  #30  
Old February 11th 04, 11:11 AM
Kandice Seeber
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Well, it makes sense...however, art is completely subjective. There are no
two beads exactly alike, so it's harder to price fix. Computer parts and
insurance plans may vary form place to place, but have generally
identifiable values. A set of lampwork art beads can be seen as ugly and
worthless by one person and beautiful and worth a lot to another. Quality
is an issue, but is only part of the equation. And ebay is still a
capitalist environment. You absolutely cannot enforce or even imply a
general price fix on anything - even things which are the same.

--
Kandice Seeber
Air & Earth Designs
http://www.lampwork.net
\

If someone makes a professional product, I consider them professionals.
That's why I differentiated between them and beginners/hobbyists. I'm
obviously referring to the a level of expertise as opposd to how much

money
someone is making.

And frankly, I looked at Wet Canvas and went to some of the bead site of

the
people making comments. Not all of them made nice beads.

Tina


Sorry, I got the wrong end of the stick..

If the Quality is the same (not so likely comparing beginners/hobbyists to
professionals) then the value should surely be similar.. Having said
this, I agree that not so nice beads should not be priced anywhere near
the professionally made/quality made beads. They are simply not the same
product, hence, not worth the same $ value.

The extra $ worth I was talking about was if the bead was under-valued
when put up for sale - Not as compared to a professionally made bead.

Hope this makes better sense..

Mavis



 




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