How was this made?

WillE1 wrote:

Try http://home.earthlink.net/~jggilbert/tsuba.htm Will E.

Thanks, but I was trying to get some of the experienced jewelers here
to tell me how they would make the tsuba in my original post.

Apparently they wouldn't.

Mick wrote:
WillE1 wrote:
Try http://home.earthlink.net/~jggilbert/tsuba.htm Will E.

Thanks, but I was trying to get some of the experienced jewelers here
to tell me how they would make the tsuba in my original post.

Apparently they wouldn't.



Actually, since you wrote:

"Assume there is no time or cost constraints and that the client wants
the same level of detail and the same materials used in the
construction (i.e. shakudo, incrusted with gold, shakudo, shibuichi,
and copper)."

I would gladly accept the commission, and charge for the time and
materials I have to invest to come up with the same results as the tsuba
in the photo you first posted.

I can tell you, it's not going to be cheap.

Frankly, I think you'd be better off hopping on a plane to Japan, and
finding yourself a tsuba maker there. They're still around. Some
craftsmen there have been elevated to "National Living Treasure", a
concept Americans unfortunately do not comprehend.

--
Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com

On Jan 23, 6:01 pm, "Mick" wrote:
Mick wrote:
So, if you had a commission to create an object like this, how would
you go about it? What steps would you perform, in which order, and
which techniques would you use?

Nobody?

Helloooooooo... Is anyone home?

On Fri, 26 Jan 2007 11:34:46 -0800, in rec.crafts.jewelry "Mick"
wrote:


On Jan 23, 6:01 pm, "Mick" wrote:
Mick wrote:
So, if you had a commission to create an object like this, how would
you go about it? What steps would you perform, in which order, and
which techniques would you use?

Nobody?

Helloooooooo... Is anyone home?


Oh, we're here.

But an analogy.

If you need really delicate brain surgery, would you go to a group where members
were mostly trained in cardiac surgery, along with some surgical residents who
were still learning their skills, to find your neurosurgeon?

The thing is, the metalurgical knowledge and practice, and the technical skills
and methods, used in japanese metalsmithing, differ markedly from the metals
methods and skills taught and used by the majority of western smiths and
jewelers. Those of us who've been at it long enough, been exposed to japanese
metalwork from time to time, or even taken classes in some of it's methods, may
understand a lot about how this type of work is done, but that doesn't mean,
shown examples of some of the finest levels of this type of work, that we feel
comfortable trying to duplicate the same thing. Just because we also work with
metals and jwelery, even if we are highly skilled and well regarded for our work
and skills, does not mean that we should be masters of these quite distinctly
different methods as well. As Abrasha has pointed out, only a very very few
western workers, one of who has been mentioned via links in this thread,
approach the skills needed for such a commission. These are not skills one
learns quickly just from a book. You learn it, and gain skill, though years of
specialization and practice. For someone who's not already doing this type of
work as a specialty to take on a commission such as this would be simply a fine
demonstration of how little they understand about the problems they will
encounter. Now, if you're not so picky about quality or exactness in the
final product, or if you really do have unlimited funds and time to wait, then
perhaps some of us would take it on. But it's unlikely you'd be getting your
money's worth.

Many of us could carve a wax, perhaps even with the aid of a nice CAD/CAM setup,
that would, in wax, look very good. And cast, it would look pretty good too.
Finished up, it would look good, and some gold electroplating, or better, gold
leaf application, would finish the effect nicely, after some careful patina
application. Sure, it would look good. Make a nice belt buckle or something.

Oh, you wanted a Tsuba made as well as the original, or using the same methods,
one that was truly a duplicate, not a casual simulation? Oh. Now that's a
different question...

By the way, japanese metalsmithing methods are not the only sort of thing where,
if you want the highest level of work you have to search out an artist who's
already a practiced and experienced specialist. If you want really fine
engraving, don't ask here. Most of us can handle a graver. Some of us can even
do some reasonably competent decorative engraving on a casual basis. But if you
want work on the level of Steve Lindsey's amazing engraving, or other artists
like him who've specialized in the work, then you're gonna have to ask Steve.
(http://www.lindsayengraving.com/). Engraving is a sufficiently difficult
skill that people who do it well, really well, usually do little else. Really
good stone setting work can also be such a specialty, as is really good use of
enamels. And there are more.

it's not that "nobody's home" in this group. It's more that this group is a
mostly english language group comprised mostly of westerners, either americans,
canadians, or brits, with a few aussies and kiwi's thrown in for good measure.
Maybe some others, but in general, westerners. Not the best place to look for
specialists in japanese metalworking methods.

You might try asking this also on the Ganoksin.com's web site, on the Orchid
mail list hosted there. Much larger readership. Still mostly western trained
workers, but a greater chance of finding someone who knows someone etc. But
the same basic facts exist. This is highly specialized work you're asking
about. You need to find someone who's already specializing in it, if you want
really accurate information or help.

Peter

On Jan 26, 11:57 am, "Peter W.. Rowe,"
wrote:
If you need really delicate brain surgery, would you go to a group where members
were mostly trained in cardiac surgery, along with some surgical residents who
were still learning their skills, to find your neurosurgeon?

I'm not a jeweler, but I'd guess that most experienced jewelers know
most, if not all, of the basic techniques used to create such an
object. After all, it isn't magic, no matter how much experience or
specialized know-how Japanese tsuba artisans had.

To use your own analogy; would you require a highly skilled
neurosurgeon if all you wanted was a basic understanding of the steps
involved in a brain surgery? I don't think so. All surgeons share a
basic pool of medical knowledge. Even a GP could probably give you a
good idea of what's involved. An exceptionally intelligent one might
even be able to give you detailed information on some of the procedures
involved.

If you go back and read my post you will see that all I asked was
something like, "How would you do this?" I did not ask how a highly
skilled Japanese tsuba artisan would do this. I'm also not looking for
someone to do such work. I was just looking for information.

Thanks for your input Peter.

Mick wrote:
On Jan 23, 6:01 pm, "Mick" wrote:
Mick wrote:
So, if you had a commission to create an object like this, how would
you go about it? What steps would you perform, in which order, and
which techniques would you use?

Nobody?

Helloooooooo... Is anyone home?



Yo Mick pal. Are YOU home? I responded a couple of times to your last
post. I can't help it, that you don't get the response you want to hear.

--
Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com

Peter W.. Rowe, wrote:


You might try asking this also on the Ganoksin.com's web site, on the Orchid
mail list hosted there. Much larger readership. Still mostly western trained
workers, but a greater chance of finding someone who knows someone etc. But
the same basic facts exist. This is highly specialized work you're asking
about. You need to find someone who's already specializing in it, if you want
really accurate information or help.

Peter

I told him to hop on a plane to Japan, and find a craftsman there. From
the start of this thread though he has exhibited a reluctance to take
any of my advice though. So I don't think he will follow this advice
either. "No time or cost constraints"? Yeah right!

We're dealing here with a very stubborn person who thinks he can get
anything he wants, if he just throws enough money at it. Except, I
don't think he is very serious about that.

Well, let him throw some money my way, and I will get on a plane for him
and consult my contacts in Kyoto and Nara. I sure as hell won't give
those to him.

--
Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com

Mick wrote:
WillE1 wrote:

Try http://home.earthlink.net/~jggilbert/tsuba.htm Will E.


Thanks, but I was trying to get some of the experienced jewelers here
to tell me how they would make the tsuba in my original post.

Apparently they wouldn't.


Im going to stick my neck out again and comment on this once more.
1stly most of the experienced jewellers here dont make tsuba.
they make jewellery for personalware. ie rings bracelets neclaces etc.
So your question is out of place here. As you wont get the answer you
want.
you need to aska tsuba maker as many have commented here already.
secondly any tsuba maker will only tell you the following. when you ask him
How do you make this?
He will say,
you have to study under a master for many years to learn the basic
skills of this particular metal working.
IF you have mastered the essential skills you will be asked to make a
test piece
this will be scrutinised by the master and IF its not up to his
standard. it will be destroyed and you will have to start all over again.
WHEN you have passed his tests you will then be able to make tsubas as a
maker.
After many years you might become a master if your contemporaries
consider you so to be.
Finally it is impertinent to ask any metalworker/ jeweller /tsuba maker
how he makes his wares.
Anyone of these who has struggled for many years to develop his skills
and discover new techniques never passes on those technical details to
anyone who doesnt deserve to know. Particularly to an idle enquiry from
a stranger.
What ever the modern world and internet has become any self respecting
craftsman does not open up his knowledge base to all and sundry. Hes a
fool if he does.
No one has a automatic right to know this information, it has to be earned.
Ted Frater
Dorset UK.
,

On Sat, 27 Jan 2007 01:43:36 -0800, in rec.crafts.jewelry "Mick"
wrote:

On Jan 26, 11:57 am, "Peter W.. Rowe,"
wrote:
If you need really delicate brain surgery, would you go to a group where members
were mostly trained in cardiac surgery, along with some surgical residents who
were still learning their skills, to find your neurosurgeon?

I'm not a jeweler, but I'd guess that most experienced jewelers know
most, if not all, of the basic techniques used to create such an
object. After all, it isn't magic, no matter how much experience or
specialized know-how Japanese tsuba artisans had.


The problem here is apparently exactly that you are not a jeweler. You're
assumption that most experienced jewelers know most or even any of the basic
techniques used to create this sort of piece is where your error lies.
Apparently, you've not yet grasped just how specialized these methods are, and
how different they are from the way most modern 20th and 21st century jewelers
work. This is simply not the case. The jewelers who do understand these
methods are those who've explored them on the basis of understanding the
heritage and historical underpinnings of the craft, since these methods, most of
them, at least in the details, are NOT part of the current repertoire of methods
most jewelers learn and use today. And though I'll agree that it's not
precisely magic, you'd perhaps be amazed at just how close it can seem, to
anyone who's not also equally skilled, watching this sort of craftsman at work.
And the thing is, the methods generally used by the japanese metalsmiths are NOT
the same, not even similar, to those used by western smiths. To some degree,
there are parallels, but to any of us with experience, the first thing we'll see
is the details in the nature of this sort of object that instantly tell us that
we do NOT fully understand how this was made. The beginners will be happy to
hazard a guess, of course, since ignorance is always bliss (as you yourself
might be demonstrating). But those of us with a bit more experience in western
style metalsmithing will, as you've see , be a lot more cautious about trying to
pin down exactly how this was made. We might happily give an opinion as to how
we might try to duplicate it (As I did in my post, suggesting casting of
course), but only on the understanding that we're not expecting to exactly
duplicate the item, and not even closely reach it's quality. Western jewelers
are not generally given the same intensive training, perhaps lasting decades,
that the old systems gave the masters in classical japanese metalwork. The best
of us had maybe five or ten years formal training, but it will have been
covering a very wide range of methods and topics, not as specialized as this,
and using modern tools and methods, which generally never aim to produce this
type of object. The thing that makes this tsuba so difficult for us is not just
the general techniques for us to explain. The fact is, there might be several
methods that might have been, or might now, be tried. But for us, not being
experienced in this precise type of working, we may have no real idea what the
best way to try it would be, and there's little doubt that for most of us, were
we to try it, the result would be a dismal disappointment, with lots of the
details we didn't know about technically, showing up in the result.

And you suggest you want just a general idea of how this was done? Well, again,
you're asking too much. There are several ways it COULD have been done, but
from a photo, we cannot tell which. Even with the thing in hand, it might take
microscopic examination to be sure just what we were seeing. Given the general
nature of what we might thus guess at, what good is that to you, other than
just conversational value? You've already enjoyed lots of conversation on this
topic. The thread has gone on longer, and more vigorously, than most in this
group. So then you wonder if anybody is here? Sheesh. Makes me wonder if
you're for real. If so, fine. Read the above, and understand that there may be
more to metalsmithing and techniques than you understand.

If, on the other hand, you're just being a troll, then do us a favor and go
somewhere else, please. I think we've kind or hashed this issue long enough,
haven't we?

To use your own analogy; would you require a highly skilled
neurosurgeon if all you wanted was a basic understanding of the steps
involved in a brain surgery? I don't think so.

You sound now like the sorts of people who work for insurance companies,
deciding what treatments will be covered and which won't. Gack. dangerous.

All surgeons share a
basic pool of medical knowledge. Even a GP could probably give you a
good idea of what's involved.

Well, yeah, if all you want is "ya cuts open the head, and fixes da problem.
Then ya goes and writes up the hefty bills."

Now, if you want an explanation that discusses why a procedure might or might
not work, what the success rate might be, the difficulties of anatomy that might
involve the risks to the patient, all of which might be issues wanted by a lay
person discussion brain surgery, well, for my money, I'll damn well talk to the
neurosurgeon. And I've some experience with this, though not with surgery. I'm
diabetic. Type 1, since age 16. You'd be amazed at how specialized the full
understanding of the nuances of treating diabetes are. My primary care doc, a
very nice and skilled lady, says she learns more from ME about diabetes care
than she's able to tell me. We're a team, as a result. My endocrinologist,
who's a diabetes specialist, understands the nuances of the disease far better,
and is able to guide me with much more detail. Except, that is, in the area of
the nuances of using my insulin pump. For that, I deal with the CDE (certified
diabetes educator) in the office, a nurse who specializes in insulin pumps, so
for problems handling the details of that therapy, I deal with her. The basics
of any of this, heard from any of the different people, would be of little use
to me, and they, being the experts they are, are careful to advise me only on
the things they know well, and refer me to one or another of that trio, when
questions or concerns I have overstep what they are certain they know. Too
simple an answer, or one only almost correct, does me more harm than good. They
know this.

In the same manner, you've asked a bunch of experienced jewelers how they'd make
something which, to be blunt, we don't know exactly how to make. And being
prudent and aware of our own limitations, and not wanting to wildly give you
wrong or ignorant info, you're not taking guesses just out of the blue. This
type of metal work is simply not the same as what we've been trained for.

A better analogy to the above would be to wonder if you can get a reasonable
explanation and discussion of brain surgery from your dental hygenist. She's
also a health care professional. But brain surgery isn't what she's been
trained to do.



If you go back and read my post you will see that all I asked was
something like, "How would you do this?

And as you've seen, in general the answer is, we wouldn't, and probably
couldn't, come close enough to want to try it.

I did not ask how a highly
skilled Japanese tsuba artisan would do this. I'm also not looking for
someone to do such work. I was just looking for information.

Thanks for your input Peter.


You're welcome.

Peter (again)

Mick wrote:
On Jan 26, 11:57 am, "Peter W.. Rowe,"
wrote:
If you need really delicate brain surgery, would you go to a group where members
were mostly trained in cardiac surgery, along with some surgical residents who
were still learning their skills, to find your neurosurgeon?


You sir, are an ignoramus of biblical proportions!

Check out "Etruscan granulation", maybe you can work your way up to
ignoramus.

Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com