Composition of Silver Clay

On Sun, 14 May 2006 16:02:29 -0700, in rec.crafts.jewelry Charlie Leo
wrote:

On Sun, 14 May 2006 06:45:04 GMT, Heinrich Butschal
wrote:



The question of the OP isn´t answered with that. ;-(


Well, indirectly yes it is. He needs to go to a PMC supplier and ask
for a MSDS sheet. That will tell him the official ingredients.

Charlie

Actually, the whole idea of getting the info from an MSDS is somewhat flawed.
The MSDS is intended to provide safety data, and does not always need to specify
all the exact chemicals. In the case of PMC, the Mitsubishi (manufacturer) of
the stuff simply specifies "organic binder", at a concentration of less than 20
percent of the total. Apparently, things like known limits of exposure and the
like, aren't known, or are considered not necessary for the MSDS, since they're
not listed either for the binder. The sheet details a bunch of safety info for
the product as a whole, but does not break it down a lot for the individual
ingredients. I've seen this commonly in quite a number of instances with
commercial products. The MSDS sheets only give enough info for informed safe
use of the materials, emergency instructions, and the like, not a complete
formulary if they don't need to. Presumably, in the event of emergency where
that info was needed, one could contact the manufacturer and they'd grudgingly
divulge it. But it's not on the MSDS.

MSDS sheets, while useful, still allow manufacturers to protect proprietary
information and trade secrets, when doing so does not endanger the users (in the
manufacturer's opinion, I presume. Not sure what the legal requirements are)

You can see a bunch of neato tech info about PMCs including the MSDS sheet, at
http://www.pmcguild.com/gettingstart...nicaldata.html

You might, if you can track down a U.S. patent for the stuff, be able to find
the info there. If it's patented, and if that binder is part of the patented
concept, they'd have to detail it a bit. Some manufacturers specificallydo not
patent their new ideas just so they don't have to then reveal proprietaryinfo
in a patent for unscrupulous people to then duplicate... But if they patented
it, you might find what you want there. Many patents in the U.S. can be viewed
on the patent office web site.

Peter

Patents typically specify several "possible" ingredients at several
"possible" concentrations. Specifically so that some "entrepreneur" from,
say, Zaire, can't just pull the patent and start duplicating the product.

--

Don Thompson

There is nothing more frightening than active ignorance.
~Goethe

It is a worthy thing to fight for one's freedom;
it is another sight finer to fight for another man's.
~Mark Twain


"Peter W.. Rowe," wrote in message
...
On Sun, 14 May 2006 16:02:29 -0700, in rec.crafts.jewelry Charlie Leo
wrote:

On Sun, 14 May 2006 06:45:04 GMT, Heinrich Butschal
wrote:



The question of the OP isn´t answered with that. ;-(


Well, indirectly yes it is. He needs to go to a PMC supplier and ask
for a MSDS sheet. That will tell him the official ingredients.

Charlie

Actually, the whole idea of getting the info from an MSDS is somewhat
flawed.
The MSDS is intended to provide safety data, and does not always need to
specify
all the exact chemicals. In the case of PMC, the Mitsubishi (manufacturer)
of
the stuff simply specifies "organic binder", at a concentration of less than
20
percent of the total. Apparently, things like known limits of exposure and
the
like, aren't known, or are considered not necessary for the MSDS, since
they're
not listed either for the binder. The sheet details a bunch of safety info
for
the product as a whole, but does not break it down a lot for the individual
ingredients. I've seen this commonly in quite a number of instances with
commercial products. The MSDS sheets only give enough info for informed
safe
use of the materials, emergency instructions, and the like, not a complete
formulary if they don't need to. Presumably, in the event of emergency
where
that info was needed, one could contact the manufacturer and they'd
grudgingly
divulge it. But it's not on the MSDS.

MSDS sheets, while useful, still allow manufacturers to protect proprietary
information and trade secrets, when doing so does not endanger the users (in
the
manufacturer's opinion, I presume. Not sure what the legal requirements
are)

You can see a bunch of neato tech info about PMCs including the MSDS sheet,
at
http://www.pmcguild.com/gettingstart...nicaldata.html

You might, if you can track down a U.S. patent for the stuff, be able to
find
the info there. If it's patented, and if that binder is part of the
patented
concept, they'd have to detail it a bit. Some manufacturers specificallydo
not
patent their new ideas just so they don't have to then reveal proprietary
info
in a patent for unscrupulous people to then duplicate... But if they
patented
it, you might find what you want there. Many patents in the U.S. can be
viewed
on the patent office web site.

Peter

On Sun, 14 May 2006 18:20:16 -0700, in rec.crafts.jewelry "Don T"
wrote:

Patents typically specify several "possible" ingredients at several
"possible" concentrations. Specifically so that some "entrepreneur" from,
say, Zaire, can't just pull the patent and start duplicating the product.

right, but if the nature of that ingredient is somehow special and part of the
protected concept, it *might* need to be spelled out in somewhat greater detail
than on the MSDS, which essentially says "proprietary ingredient". That doesn't
mean the patent will be more precise than the MSDS, only that it might have to
be. If the patent can be found on the web, then it's an easy thing to check. If
not, well, then it's up to the OP to decide on the next course. One simple one
would be simply to hire a good lab to analize a sample. If this is simple
curiosity, then that's likely out of the range or possibilities, but if the
identity if important for some reason... And if it's just a desire to try and
duplicate the results, one might simply try cooking up one's own version.If it
were me, I'd start with the various off the shelf glues that are commonlyused
when doing granulation.

Another place to look would be the main industry that uses these technologies.
PMC is really nothing more than a specialized version of standard poweredmetal
technology, as commonly used for producing various things in non preciousmetals
by sintering a packed mass of various metals. I'd guess the same sortsof
binders they use to make a sintered bronze bearing would be similar to that used
in PMC. So do some research on the binders used in those methods, which should
be fairly easy to find, as that technology has been around for a while now.

Peter Rowe

Heinrich Butschal wrote:
Charlie Leo schrieb:

Of course, here in the US a manufacturer is legally required to supply
a USDS sheet listing all the components of any manufactured product.

Charlie


Excuse me - MSDS - Material Safety Data Sheet. US manufacturers are
supposed to provide, on demand, the ingredients of any product. They
do try to hide ingredients behind a lot of gobbledegook, but they can
legally be forced to provide the information. When I was in the
printing business, I had to have a book of these sheets for inks
(different one for each color & brand), blanket wash, fountain
solutions,etc. My 'book' had about 100 pages in it and wasn't
complete.

As a matter of fact, I think that most MSDS information is available
on line if you know where to look.


The question of the OP isn´t answered with that. ;-(

Mit freundlichem Gruß,
Heinrich Butschal


Indeed, so stop already with this nonsense, y'all.

Here is a list of MSDS sheets for PMC from Rio Grande
http://www.riogrande.com/msds/list_all.asp
http://www.riogrande.com/msds/list_all.asp?offset=25
http://www.riogrande.com/msds/list_all.asp?offset=50

and here is the MSDS or PMC.
http://www.riogrande.com/images/msds/100770.pdf

It does not answer the question the OP asked for. It only says "organic
binder", but it does not say what this is composed of.

--
Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com

Charlie Leo wrote:
On Sun, 14 May 2006 06:45:04 GMT, Heinrich Butschal
wrote:



The question of the OP isn´t answered with that. ;-(



Well, indirectly yes it is. He needs to go to a PMC supplier and ask
for a MSDS sheet. That will tell him the official ingredients.

Charlie


No it doesn't:

http://www.riogrande.com/images/msds/100996.pdf

--
Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com

From http://www.otm.uiuc.edu/techs/techdetail.asp?id=35

Precious Metal Clay® was developed by a Japanese company in the early 1990s. It
is a malleable (clay-like) material composed of water, a naturally occurring
plant-based binder, and metal particles measuring less than 20 microns in
diameter. When sintered, the water and binder are completely burned off, leaving
only fine metal.

--
Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com

To:
Subject: Composition of Silver Clay
From: Heinrich Butschal
Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 09:34:37 +0200

Abrasha schrieb:
From http://www.otm.uiuc.edu/techs/techdetail.asp?id=35

Precious Metal Clay® was developed by a Japanese company in the early1990s. It
is a malleable (clay-like) material composed of water, a naturally occurring
plant-based binder, and metal particles measuring less than 20 microns in
diameter. When sintered, the water and binder are completely burned off, leaving
only fine metal.

Organic binder could be e.g. gelatine or, if it should be plant-based, You
might take rubber arabicum with water.
So we are now again back to the beginning :-)

Mit freundlichem Gruß,
Heinrich Butschal
--
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