Mokume Gane materials question

Hi all! I'm new here. I want to make some Mokume Gane for a project I'm
working on right now and was thinking of using copper and stirling silver.
Is this a workable combination? I read somthing that said annealing
stirling silver too many times will cause it to get brittle through alloy
losses? What I want to do with it is heat, hammer and fold it a few times.
Now I have pretty good idea of the mechanics of the bonding of metals but
not sure of how these materials will behave in this application and I'd
rather not waste material as pricey as silver in dumb experimenting ;-) I'm
doing research on the subject before I go spending the money but I never
overlook the value of newsgroups as a resource.
Next question is about the "pickle" mentioned for cleaning up silver.
What is it usually made of?

Thanks up front for your patience and input!

GA

Hi GA

Silver and copper are quite easy to bond. There are different techniques for
mokume and I suggest getting hold of Steve Midgett's book "Mokume Gane A
Comprehensive Study" to
see what suits you.
If you are using a forge (I think I recognise your name from the
blacksmithing group) you might want to follow Robert Coogan's technique
covered in the book. It is a little different from steel, you tend to bond
all the sheets together first rather than hammer and fold. If you want to go
the electric kiln way take a look at James Binnions website
www.mokumegane.com
Steve Midgett also has a website www.mokume.com

Chris

I use fine silver and copper. I'm sure stirling is fine also, or even coin
silver.
I have used pure nickel before, but it is just too dang tough.

Les

On Sat, 12 Mar 2005 05:43:29 GMT, "Greyangel"
wrote:

Hi all! I'm new here. I want to make some Mokume Gane for a project I'm
working on right now and was thinking of using copper and stirling silver.
Is this a workable combination? I read somthing that said annealing
stirling silver too many times will cause it to get brittle through alloy
losses? What I want to do with it is heat, hammer and fold it a few times.
Now I have pretty good idea of the mechanics of the bonding of metals but
not sure of how these materials will behave in this application and I'd
rather not waste material as pricey as silver in dumb experimenting ;-) I'm
doing research on the subject before I go spending the money but I never
overlook the value of newsgroups as a resource.
Next question is about the "pickle" mentioned for cleaning up silver.
What is it usually made of?

Thanks up front for your patience and input!

GA


Unlike iron, nonferrous mokume does not work as well with the heat
hammer and fold. The surface of the metals are prone to oxidation and
the normal process is to occlude the oxygen as much as possible by
having very close fits between the metals being bonded and heating
them in a reducing atmosphere.

The most efficient way is to put all your layers together at once and
clamp them.

Take a look at;
http://www.mokume-gane.com/Papers/SantaFePaper.pdf

I was an undergrad grunt at SIU when we developed "torque plate"
clamping. As far as I know it is still the best way.

As far as the silver, each has it's advantages and disadvantages.

Sterling will bond just fine, But it is hot short. If you are going to
do a lot of hot forging, you have to be very careful about your temps.
It will forge just fine at a black heat, but when it becomes
incandescent, it goes through a very wacky phase change and loses all
structural strength. It certainly won't work for heat and fold
welding.

Fine silver does not have this phase change and hot forges just fine.
It also resists oxidation and is much more forgiving in the welding
stage. However, particularly at red heat, it is much softer than the
copper and tends to squeeze out between the layers of copper.
This does not weaken it's bond, but you must constantly keep the edge
of your billet trimmed to keep from letting the edges fold over.

Safety pickle is a solution of water and sodium bisulfate. There is a
product sold to the jewelry trades called Sparex. But it is cheaper to
go down to the hardware store and by dry granulated pool acid. It is
the same stuff. Don't by liquid pool acid, that is hydrochloric acid.
it will disolve your copper.

Paul K. Dickman

Hi Chris! Thanks for the book reference I'll see if I can get ahold of it.
Yeah ;-) you nailed me on the blacksmith group. I'm a steel pounder and
knife maker (though hardly proficient yet). Since I'm more interested
knives and swords as artwork it was a no brainer that I'd end up here too
;-)
I have a gas forge that I was hoping to use for the hot work. figured
on using stainless foil to keep the oxidation down and copper layers at the
outside so I can grind off any roughage and oxidized material without
wasting the more expensive material. I'd rather do a draw and fold if I can
get away with it since that will get me the patterning that I'm hoping for.
Does require beating up the metal quite a bit more and as yet I'm not sure
of how much I can get away with. I'm assuming as long as I keep a good
control of the temperture it should be ok? I've got a back burner plan to
build an electric oven for doing really precise heat treating but that's for
later. I've gotten reasonably proficient at controlling the tempertures in
my gas forge though it's nothing like digital control. I spent some time
learning what different tempertures "looked like" by guaging phase change
and melting points of different materials. Anyway I'll have a look at the
sites you posted and do some reading. Thanks!

GA

"Chris Hackett" wrote in message
...
Hi GA

Silver and copper are quite easy to bond. There are different techniques
for
mokume and I suggest getting hold of Steve Midgett's book "Mokume Gane A
Comprehensive Study" to
see what suits you.
If you are using a forge (I think I recognise your name from the
blacksmithing group) you might want to follow Robert Coogan's technique
covered in the book. It is a little different from steel, you tend to bond
all the sheets together first rather than hammer and fold. If you want to
go
the electric kiln way take a look at James Binnions website
www.mokumegane.com
Steve Midgett also has a website www.mokume.com

Chris

wrote in message
...
I use fine silver and copper. I'm sure stirling is fine also, or even coin
silver.
I have used pure nickel before, but it is just too dang tough.
Les

One of the gotchas in the stirling silver is a lower melting point. Wilst
"shopping" on the web for material that met specs (and price) I was looking
for I pretty much decided on a company called Hoover and Strong. Anybody
have opinions or experience dealing with them? Better suggestions?

GA

vj found this in rec.crafts.jewelry, from "Greyangel"
:

]Hoover and Strong. Anybody
]have opinions or experience dealing with them? Better suggestions?

that's who Oran has dealt with.
it's who i sent my father's coin silver to, to be refined.
no problems.
excellent service.


--
@vicki [SnuggleWench]
(Books) http://www.booksnbytes.com
(Jewelry) http://www.vickijean.com
(Metalsmithing) http://www.snugglewench.com
[it's a Callahan's thing]
-----------
vj -- pounds metal, mother of three "Js", lives in Paradise,*
and is generally considered a smarta$$.
Yahoo ID: *vjean95967

vj found this in rec.crafts.jewelry, from :

sterling
]But it is hot short.

no kidding!

]Fine silver does not have this phase change and hot forges just fine.

so i would have fewer problems soldering fine silver wire, but lose the
strength in doing so?


--
@vicki [SnuggleWench]
(Books) http://www.booksnbytes.com
(Jewelry) http://www.vickijean.com
(Metalsmithing) http://www.snugglewench.com
[it's a Callahan's thing]
-----------
vj -- pounds metal, mother of three "Js", lives in Paradise,*
and is generally considered a smarta$$.
Yahoo ID: *vjean95967

I buy silver buillion(sp) on ebay.

Les

On 12-Mar-2005, "Greyangel" wrote:

One of the gotchas in the stirling silver is a lower melting point. Wilst
"shopping" on the web for material that met specs (and price) I was
looking
for I pretty much decided on a company called Hoover and Strong. Anybody
have opinions or experience dealing with them? Better suggestions?

GA

From everything I've heard, ebay is a great thing for a lot of people but
simply viewing the site will hose up my computer and frankly if I want a
flea market I'll go to one. If I have to do online shopping it's going to
be with stable sources. Yeah I know the ebay folks are moderators of a sort
to insure sound business practices but I still don't trust it.

GA

wrote in message
...
I buy silver buillion(sp) on ebay.

Les

On 12-Mar-2005, "Greyangel" wrote:

One of the gotchas in the stirling silver is a lower melting point.
Wilst
"shopping" on the web for material that met specs (and price) I was
looking
for I pretty much decided on a company called Hoover and Strong.
Anybody
have opinions or experience dealing with them? Better suggestions?

GA