Gifting of my stitchery

animaux wrote:

On Fri, 02 Jan 2004 20:24:16 GMT, Cheryl Isaak
opined:


Sometimes you just love them and let the rest slide like the proverbial
water off a duck.

Cheryl


I think you're right, Cheryl. I guess this is what I'm feeling and this is a
new way of feeling for me so it is a bit daunting. I have stepped outside of
the enmeshment and it's feeling strange. New territory for me. I usually get
all caught up with anxiety and then I get spastic colon and yadda yadda yadda.
That doesn't happen any more and it feels great, but sort of like I'm leaving
her behind. I guess I have to give myself permission to grow, even if I can't
share that with her. It's sad in a way.

Victoria

Victoria --

(hugs)
I have nothing to really add to all the wonderful responses you got, but
your attitude seems to sum it all up perfectly. What you've done is
consciously step outside an old pattern of behavior, and it's
uncomfortable. One series of books talks about it as a dance...you've
changed the steps; now it's up to others to follow your lead, or NOT to
-- it's their choice to make and you have to let go. If they change and
can accommodate your new outlook, fine, but they may not change, and may
stumble (the uncomfortable feeling you have because it's new and you're
"out of step" with the old pattern). The important thing is to keep
*doing* your dance, your own choreography, and not backslide into the
old, familiar, "comfortable" (in its own distorted way) dance.

You're growing. And it's sad that others can't keep up, but you can't
let them hold you back, either.

Sue

I feel like this is my territory. My grandmother is a lot like your mother.
She continually stirs trouble between her two daughters. As a result my mother
grew up and married out of the dysfunction. She vowed that I would never
become a part of that. She succeeded for the most part. I had a fairly normal
childhood. However, my mother is still involved in that dysfunction and now
that I am older and a therapist by trade, she is opening up to me about how she
was raised.

It's fascinating to me that I was drawn to a career where I become involved
with families who are in dysfunction. My mother thinks it's ironic that she
tried to shelter me from that and I ended up being drawn to it rather than
being disgusted by it.

I do believe that you have two options in dysfunctional families: You can
embrace it and work thru it, or you become a part of it. Mind you this is a
personal, not a professional opinion. I think our life struggles make us who
we are. My mother is one of the most independent and strong women I've had the
pleasure of knowing. She is the family member that everyone criticizes, but
when the chips are down, she is the first one they call.

I embrace my family history of dysfunction. My mother has a hard time
understanding how accepting I am of my family. She is so ashamed of who she
(was) that she never wants to admit what her maiden name is.

I guess my point is that I can understand where your coming from and I know
what that struggle is like.

Rhea from KY, USA

I think EVERY person is unique and rare , in thei place , in some
actions they do . I believe most people do thie Spiritual [ to them]
actions in quiet , some where away from pryning eyes , and i also
believe most people don`t tell about it , they do it .
This is By no means Any attack or negative reaction , to your letter
Animaux Victoria , It is just a great wonder , and curiousity, As you
have been telling about The place you come from , and that you chose
Budihism. Than you tell us about how it cahnged your perception in
life ,,,My wonderment is that you told that you came from a partly
Jewish family , Or was it an all Jewish Family . I wonder if you had
speant the same amount of willling time to study Hebrew and Your
Inherited Culture ,,, notthe Organized one , bur really the books ,
Rambam, and Ramban , and even some Bialik, A bit of Midrash , and a
bit of Agada ,,,, wouldn`t you be in the same spiritual place ????
and anyway what is Spiritual Place you feel yourself being in ???
You are 48 , well this is an age of going inward. of calculating one`s
acchievements and still being able to change , some directions.
You are 48 , it is almost time you can take care of your mother as an
Adult , Are you an Adult , Do you really know who you are ? who your
fellow Humans are ??? Good luck in your New fase in life .
mirjam

Sometimes I wonder. I wonder if I am this rare person. I'm being serious. I
think maybe I'm a fraud, or maybe I'm not, but either way I wonder.

My sense of deepened spirituality over the course of the last several years,
particularly this past year has brought me to a place where I am not sure I
fully understand. I talk to my mother and I am still very confused by her. I
still can't figure anything out. I am so far detached from dysfunction I almost
don't know how to be on the other end of it. That's when I wonder the most. I
wonder if there is something more I'm supposed to be doing.

I believe I'm a supportive person. I'm also very supported. I have a good life
and I'm forever grateful for that. Where do any of you draw the line between
being supportive and being taken advantage or, or being taken for granted?

I am specifically talking about my mother now. She seems to think she can tell
me things, but the very next day tell me something else, denying that she ever
told me the first thing. It all confuses me terribly. She says she just wants
me to be supportive, but of what? What am I supporting, her dysfunction? I've
been supporting her all my life, is that long enough? Is 48 years time to say
"when?"

I hate to dump this all on you guys, but from time to time I read and really
learn to be a person from many of you and I need some feedback on this. Why
here? Well, since I post here every day and have been for years, I believe many
people have gotten to know me. Maybe not on a deep level, but enough to see
I've grown over the last few years and have softened up a lot. I can feel that
about myself, but this mother thing is confusing me.

Now, I am not trying to give the impression I am suffering any ill thoughts or
feelings with this. I'm relatively fine about it all. What I don't know how to
do is to be "supportive" of someone who changes the story daily to suit her
whim, but expects me to be supportive. If I had a friend who was to marry a
dirt bag, I would not attend the wedding and support that bond. That's a clear
one. The mother one is harder. Any of you out there psychotherapists willing
to have a discussion about this? We may all learn something.

Thanks for listening. I'm truly not in a struggle, rather, I'm stumped.

Victoria

Why are you surprised Ruby , victoria Animaux has been preaching
/writing / telling / scoldind every one here with her descriptions of
her many `spiritual` beliefs and disbeliefs .her Garden, her family
life , her illness. She opened the many subjects , for all , and by
the way always speaking from her newly found convictions. But when it
suited her she Suddenly remembered she had some `inherited` family
knowlege about other beliefs. If she hadn`t done all this `missionary`
writing i would have never answered her this way .
She wroite a letter wondering about things , on a public domain , so
either she expects an answer or some reactions , and than it was ok
for me to react in my way and my understanding. Just like you react to
my words in your way . Or she `only` wanted to Go on preaching or
???what ever she had in mind ,,, than it maybe was the wrong place to
this writing.
On Mon, 05 Jan 2004 21:26:58 GMT, stitcher wrote:

On Mon, 05 Jan 2004 21:41:02 GMT, (Mirjam
Bruck-Cohen) wrote:

I think EVERY person is unique and rare , in thei place , in some
actions they do . I believe most people do thie Spiritual [ to them]
actions in quiet , some where away from pryning eyes , and i also
believe most people don`t tell about it , they do it .
This is By no means Any attack or negative reaction , to your letter
Animaux Victoria , It is just a great wonder , and curiousity, As you
have been telling about The place you come from , and that you chose
Budihism. Than you tell us about how it cahnged your perception in
life ,,,My wonderment is that you told that you came from a partly
Jewish family , Or was it an all Jewish Family . I wonder if you had
speant the same amount of willling time to study Hebrew and Your
Inherited Culture ,,, notthe Organized one , bur really the books ,
Rambam, and Ramban , and even some Bialik, A bit of Midrash , and a
bit of Agada ,,,, wouldn`t you be in the same spiritual place ????
and anyway what is Spiritual Place you feel yourself being in ???
You are 48 , well this is an age of going inward. of calculating one`s
acchievements and still being able to change , some directions.
You are 48 , it is almost time you can take care of your mother as an
Adult , Are you an Adult , Do you really know who you are ? who your
fellow Humans are ??? Good luck in your New fase in life .
mirjam
And just when I was begining to think nothing could suprise me.
ruby

On 1/2/04 12:49 PM, in article ,
"animaux" wrote:

Sometimes I wonder. I wonder if I am this rare person. I'm being serious. I
think maybe I'm a fraud, or maybe I'm not, but either way I wonder.

My sense of deepened spirituality over the course of the last several years,
particularly this past year has brought me to a place where I am not sure I
fully understand. I talk to my mother and I am still very confused by her. I
still can't figure anything out. I am so far detached from dysfunction I
almost
don't know how to be on the other end of it. That's when I wonder the most.
I
wonder if there is something more I'm supposed to be doing.

I believe I'm a supportive person. I'm also very supported. I have a good
life
and I'm forever grateful for that. Where do any of you draw the line between
being supportive and being taken advantage or, or being taken for granted?

I am specifically talking about my mother now. She seems to think she can
tell
me things, but the very next day tell me something else, denying that she ever
told me the first thing. It all confuses me terribly. She says she just
wants
me to be supportive, but of what? What am I supporting, her dysfunction?
I've
been supporting her all my life, is that long enough? Is 48 years time to say
"when?"

I hate to dump this all on you guys, but from time to time I read and really
learn to be a person from many of you and I need some feedback on this. Why
here? Well, since I post here every day and have been for years, I believe
many
people have gotten to know me. Maybe not on a deep level, but enough to see
I've grown over the last few years and have softened up a lot. I can feel that
about myself, but this mother thing is confusing me.

Now, I am not trying to give the impression I am suffering any ill thoughts or
feelings with this. I'm relatively fine about it all. What I don't know how
to
do is to be "supportive" of someone who changes the story daily to suit her
whim, but expects me to be supportive. If I had a friend who was to marry a
dirt bag, I would not attend the wedding and support that bond. That's a
clear
one. The mother one is harder. Any of you out there psychotherapists willing
to have a discussion about this? We may all learn something.

Thanks for listening. I'm truly not in a struggle, rather, I'm stumped.

Victoria


I'm certainly not a psychotherapist, but have a street degree in
dealing with dysfunctional or mentally ill people. I have noticed that
one of the greatest difficulties for people who have grown up with
dysfunctional parents is in learning to trust their own reactions and
emotions. Without a solid or functional base, they are often assume
that everything they feel is wrong, and that's not the case at all. If
you have come to a place where you can talk to your mother and no
longer feel enmeshed, consider it healthy and don't berate yourself.
You *are* being as supportive as you can, but you cannot fix your
mother and it is not your duty to stay on an emotional merry-go-round
with her. I have dealt with some literally psychotic people, and have
learned to go into what I consider the nurse routine: calm but firm
voice, no involvement in crazy discussions (you cannot reason with
unreason), and kind of a brisk manner. It seems to work, but it does
not mean that you can have a full relationship with some people.
That's just the way it is.

My own MIL is a paranoid schizophrenic, and is now cooperative because
she is medicated. The trail of horrors she has left is too awful to
describe here, but the short of it is that she is not capable of
forming relationships with other people. I treat her decently and see
that her physical needs are taken care of. I am one of the few people
she will trust, so that's about it. I *am* supportive of her but am
not emotionally involved with her at all. Fortunately, she is not my
mother, but life is still not fair: my own mom died more than 20 years
ago. People often don't get the families that they deserve in terms of
healthy support, and people who have not been through this cannot
understand why things should be so difficult. You sound like you are
doing very well. Don't provoke fights with your mom and don't argue
with her -- and don't get yourself caught up. You are welcome to
e-mail me any time.
Lynne

I know it's not polite, but I've left all of Lynne's post because it was
so thoughtful.

All of us go through cycles of learning, understanding, and change about
once a decade. Especially those of us who are tuned into ourselves.
It can be very noisy in there. g It's very difficult to get over any
"baggage" parents lay on us. Some of the ghosts that parent's impart
can be obvious, some of it subtle. Who we are when we're born also
affects how we "receive" those messages. That's why some in families
are more affected than others.

It's tough to let go of parents. I was able to let go of my mother in
my late 30's, but she came back to haunt me. g Wounds sometimes open
up when life throws us curves. I'm learning to let go again.

Try to distance yourself. Whatever it is that's going on, it's not your
fault. Lynne said it well. All anyone can do is take care of their own
"issues". Sometimes that change will ultimately affect how others treat
you. Sometimes it doesn't. Some people are "challenging". In the end,
your own awareness is healthy.

Hugs to you.
Dianne

Lynne M. wrote:

On 1/2/04 12:49 PM, in article ,
"animaux" wrote:


Sometimes I wonder. I wonder if I am this rare person. I'm being serious. I
think maybe I'm a fraud, or maybe I'm not, but either way I wonder.

My sense of deepened spirituality over the course of the last several years,
particularly this past year has brought me to a place where I am not sure I
fully understand. I talk to my mother and I am still very confused by her. I
still can't figure anything out. I am so far detached from dysfunction I
almost
don't know how to be on the other end of it. That's when I wonder the most.
I
wonder if there is something more I'm supposed to be doing.

I believe I'm a supportive person. I'm also very supported. I have a good
life
and I'm forever grateful for that. Where do any of you draw the line between
being supportive and being taken advantage or, or being taken for granted?

I am specifically talking about my mother now. She seems to think she can
tell
me things, but the very next day tell me something else, denying that she ever
told me the first thing. It all confuses me terribly. She says she just
wants
me to be supportive, but of what? What am I supporting, her dysfunction?
I've
been supporting her all my life, is that long enough? Is 48 years time to say
"when?"

I hate to dump this all on you guys, but from time to time I read and really
learn to be a person from many of you and I need some feedback on this. Why
here? Well, since I post here every day and have been for years, I believe
many
people have gotten to know me. Maybe not on a deep level, but enough to see
I've grown over the last few years and have softened up a lot. I can feel that
about myself, but this mother thing is confusing me.

Now, I am not trying to give the impression I am suffering any ill thoughts or
feelings with this. I'm relatively fine about it all. What I don't know how
to
do is to be "supportive" of someone who changes the story daily to suit her
whim, but expects me to be supportive. If I had a friend who was to marry a
dirt bag, I would not attend the wedding and support that bond. That's a
clear
one. The mother one is harder. Any of you out there psychotherapists willing
to have a discussion about this? We may all learn something.

Thanks for listening. I'm truly not in a struggle, rather, I'm stumped.

Victoria


I'm certainly not a psychotherapist, but have a street degree in
dealing with dysfunctional or mentally ill people. I have noticed that
one of the greatest difficulties for people who have grown up with
dysfunctional parents is in learning to trust their own reactions and
emotions. Without a solid or functional base, they are often assume
that everything they feel is wrong, and that's not the case at all. If
you have come to a place where you can talk to your mother and no
longer feel enmeshed, consider it healthy and don't berate yourself.
You *are* being as supportive as you can, but you cannot fix your
mother and it is not your duty to stay on an emotional merry-go-round
with her. I have dealt with some literally psychotic people, and have
learned to go into what I consider the nurse routine: calm but firm
voice, no involvement in crazy discussions (you cannot reason with
unreason), and kind of a brisk manner. It seems to work, but it does
not mean that you can have a full relationship with some people.
That's just the way it is.

My own MIL is a paranoid schizophrenic, and is now cooperative because
she is medicated. The trail of horrors she has left is too awful to
describe here, but the short of it is that she is not capable of
forming relationships with other people. I treat her decently and see
that her physical needs are taken care of. I am one of the few people
she will trust, so that's about it. I *am* supportive of her but am
not emotionally involved with her at all. Fortunately, she is not my
mother, but life is still not fair: my own mom died more than 20 years
ago. People often don't get the families that they deserve in terms of
healthy support, and people who have not been through this cannot
understand why things should be so difficult. You sound like you are
doing very well. Don't provoke fights with your mom and don't argue
with her -- and don't get yourself caught up. You are welcome to
e-mail me any time.
Lynne

animaux wrote:
Sometimes I wonder. I wonder if I am this rare person. I'm being serious. I
think maybe I'm a fraud, or maybe I'm not, but either way I wonder.

I think that most of us wonder about ourselves in this way. At least,
those of us who care more about our own self opinion, and our Higher
Power's opinion of us, than about what "they" think of us.

I am specifically talking about my mother now. She seems to think she can tell
me things, but the very next day tell me something else, denying that she ever
told me the first thing. It all confuses me terribly.

Sounds reasonable. Apply the Serenity Prayer, reminding yourself that
you can't change her, only how you interact with her.

She says she just wants
me to be supportive, but of what? What am I supporting, her dysfunction?

She might say yes. I say, just let yourself love her in spite of the
dysfunction.

I've
been supporting her all my life, is that long enough? Is 48 years time to say
"when?"

YES. That may sound contradictory to what I said above, but it's not.

My particular family dysfunction was that my mother and sister both used
me as a buffer. I.e. I spent a hell of a long, stressful, time
explaining them to each other. (I lived in Oregon, Mother in
Pennsylvania, and sister in Michigan.)

I was in therapy with a wonderful woman, and she suggested that, next
time my mother began to bitch about my Sis, I just quietly put the phone
down. (Not hanging up, just not listening.) When the indistinguishable
talk-noise ceased, I was to pick it up and say "Hmm" or "Uh-huh" - i.e.
something completely non-committal. If she started again, repeat.

It worked for me. And for her. I got to where I didn't need to put the
phone down to ignore it, and, without her noticing it, I trained her not
to talk about my sister to me. I had tried confronting her about it, and
she always had a million reasons why she either "had to," or would say,
"I won't, BUT..."

My sister quit doing it on her own. Good therapists are wonderful! We
were raised as enemies, but now we're friends.

My MIL is a flake. She's bright and kind and we have more in common than
just her son, and she has no common sense. She writes scripts for
herself, and other people, and if you don't read your part right
(without knowing what it is,) she can get really schitzy.

For instance, she dumped hubby #3 when he wouldn't support her dream of
having a horse barn. (New identity # 321: gracious horsy landowner.) She
borrowed up the wazoo, (Buying a NEW dually pickup, a NEW horse trailer,
and putting up barns and sheds before she needed them) and is working 3
jobs, and about to declare bankruptcy, which is exactly what all of us
(not just xsfil ex-step-father-in-law) foresaw. And DH and his bro are
saying to each other, "She's not gonna live with US!"

I still love her, but my defenses are honed. I helped my DH realize that
she lacks wisdom, and now his defenses are honed, too. And I'll help my
DB&SIL too. She'll just have to get an apartment or townhouse.

Anyway, hope you can find something helpful in all that.

Supportively,

Ruthie in Colorado
alowan art earthling doubt net